I have a fear while carrying concealed.

[jlbraun]

...that some unarmed person my size or slightly larger acting nuts will begin to get physical with me while I'm carrying. I retreat, mouthing the standard "I'm sorry, it's my fault, I'm leaving now", but the person still follows. Because I'm carrying, I don't want to get in a physical scrap with them because of a possible gun grab. I keep retreating, they keep following acting crazy.

I have the following questions:

Should I be carrying pepper spray too?
Should I just be confident enough in my martial arts to put him down, confident that I can avoid a gun grab?
If the person says "I'm going to ^*&^ you up" and I draw, and the person still advances, what do I do?

(I searched around and couldn't find the answers I wanted)

 

[glummer]

Should I be carrying pepper spray too?

Good idea.

Should I just be confident enough in my martial arts to put him down, confident that I can avoid a gun grab?

Now you're the crazy one.

If the person says "I'm going to ^*&^ you up" and I draw, and the person still advances, what do I do?

Shoot him, if you can't avoid him. A crazy man who advances against a gun is clearly a threat.

 

[Declaration Day]

FWIW, my advice is to avoid situations where this could happen.

The scenario you've presented reminds me of many, many incidents that ocurred at a bar I used to valet at many years ago. So my next bit of advice is to stay away from bars, as they are scumbag magnets. Yes, even the "high class" ones.

But if, despite your best efforts, you run into such an individual, run, run like hell, don't waste your time trying to explain anything to him. Just go!

 

[Lonestar.45]

I would not draw unless I knew my life was in imminent danger. Hard to say unless I was in the situation. But, I do know this, I'd rather take a butt-kicking if that's what has to happen than shoot an unarmed guy. I'm simply not drawing on an unarmed guy unless there's some kind of circumstance that makes me think I'm going to die if I get into a scuffle with him (like, he's 6ft 10 and 300lbs of solid muscle, or he has 5 friends). Pepper spray would be a good idea of that is your fear.

In Texas, you have to have a reasonable fear that you are about to experience death or severe injury. That is all open to interpretation. If you're a 90 lb grandma and a 25 yr old unarmed male attacks you, you can probably justify the shoot. If you're 200 lbs, and so is the other guy, and he's unarmed, and he hits you with his fist, you probably should not be shooting. A jury will probably not interpret that as being a situation where you should fear death or severe injury. All shades of gray, I know.

 

[Devonai]

Now you're the crazy one.

Why?

Unless you are infirm or otherwise disabled, a few months of self-defense training is all it takes. That, together with a holster with at least one type of retention (like a thumb break), will increase your chances to overcome that kind of situation with little more than abrased skin.

Joint locks, redirection of force, and disarms are easy to learn but very hard to retain. You must train doing them constantly to ensure that you can actually pull them off on the street. However, just a few months at a reputable dojo will get you there.

 

[VARifleman]

If you're 200 lbs, and so is the other guy, and he's unarmed, and he hits you with his fist, you probably should not be shooting.

Even though fists are deadly weapons, and it's been known for good lightweight boxers to take down (untrained) people twice their size, I have to agree with that, it's messed up, but that's sadly how it is.

 

[mbt2001]

The simple fact of the matter is if you are or believe you are under threat of serious harm or death you can shoot. If you find yourself feeling nervous about that, do not carry.

 

[Lonestar]

OC is probably a good idea. Honestly I don't know if it because I'm a big boy, or maybe I'm quick with my mouth, but once I hit my late 20's I stopped getting into situations that could lead to fistfights. You always see teens and young men fistfighting but it is real rare to see two guys 30 and over fistfighting. The odds are low that someone will want to fight you when you get older. You may see alot of threatening and posturing but rarely does it come to blows.

Otherwise if some unarmed nut around the same size and age, decides that he needs to hit you, insist loudly that you don't want to fight, if he continues, mace him and walk away.

 

[WeedWhacker]

Not to mention the fact that the aggressor in this hypothetical scenario obviously thinks he can beat you in a fight, hence incapacitate you, hence have free access to your firearm while you're watching the birdies fly 'round your head...

While I hope to never find myself in such a situation, if I can't outpace 'em, and he's itching for a fight, I'd draw and issue an ultimatum. Not much else could be except let an obvious physical threat close to melee range...

Should I be carrying pepper spray too?

Up to you. I don't have much faith in the stuff other than that it will come right back up my nose...

Should I just be confident enough in my martial arts to put him down, confident that I can avoid a gun grab?

NO. You do not fist-fight while carrying a firearm.

If the person says "I'm going to ^*&^ you up" and I draw, and the person still advances, what do I do?

It's a personal decision. In my mind, if I'm forced to draw, it's because I have no other choice left, and the aggressor has 1. the means and 2. the apparent intent to do me harm, which if it leads to my incapacitation, definitely could be deadly as I could by definition offer no resistance.
Frankly, if you ever are forced to draw, you'd also better be able to pull the trigger. If you haven't thought the problem through and prepared yourself for the possibility that you might one day kill a human if you carry a lethal weapon around, then don't carry a lethal weapon.

 

[kfranz]

Why are you any more afraid while carrying than if you are not?

If the person says "I'm going to ^*&^ you up" and I draw, and the person still advances, what do I do?

Keep your feet and your mouth moving until that is no longer a viable option.

 

[XDKingslayer]

So essentially, you're afraid of the very reason you carry?

That seems kinda funny to me. You carry to defend yourself, yet you're afraid of it happening while you carry...

Or are you thinking that the scenario you laid out is a grey area and you fear your decision in that grey area?

 

[MK11]

Unarmed self defense skills are absolutely vital, maybe even more so than armed defense. There's a place for both and if someone is violently attacking you, the place for unarmed self defense is to protect yourself long enough to gain distance to get armed. Joint locks are great at class when I do it to you, and you do it to me and everybody's friends. They're not so great when someone is violently trying to cave in your head.

Pepper spray is great as a force contiuum. It's not a magic wand but it has a place.

Think about the whole package (unarmed, non-lethal, armed). Not every situation is the same and even the same situation can turn into something totally different very quickly. Too many guys think they just need to be either Bruce Lee or Wyatt Earp.

 

[Sean Dempsey]

I'm not sure on all state laws, but since when does a concealed handgun have to only make it's appearance at the time it is shot?

I have had friends who CCW and have used their weapon to stop an attack before it happened. If someone is being that aggressive towards you and advancing, perhaps you could draw to the low-ready position? If your gun is out, but not aimed at the person, and they still advance, that could be considered a lethal threat.

If someone advances on a gun, I have serious doubts as to their intentions. Did they just HAVE to hit you, not lethally, but gosh darn, all they wanted was to smack you a bit, you didn't have to pull a gun! Hardly. If someone drew a gun on me after I had initiated aggression, I am not going to say "well, I'm still coming for you, but all I intend to do is give you a noogie and a headlock, so you better not shoot because I intend to only do very light harm!"

It's a progression:

carry to stop a threat.
draw to stop a threat.
go to low-ready to stop a threat.
aim for the center of mass to stop a threat.
shoot to stop a threat.

If you shoot this fictional attacker, he already violated at least 4 (or more) clear boundaries. Sure, he might try and say you were brandishing, but really, what cop is going to listen to "all I wanted to do was fistfight, and he pulled a gun to stop me!"

 

[arthurcw]

Get Massad Ayoob's, In the Gravest Extreme. It covers the difference between Bare Fear and Reasonable Fear. May answer some of your questions.

You can "What If" yourself to death. Quite literally, sadly. The best you can do is train for and eventuality and pray you can get away. It's never the goal to shoot someone (you know that) so anytime you can scoot with your tail between your legs you win.

Those grey areas of appropriate force suck. So I'm gonna +1 the pepper spray. Keep it on your weak side and still be ready to draw if he will not let you escape. I think doing ANYTHING you can to avoid HTH combat is best. Remember, you don't KNOW he is unarmed. He may be right up on you an pull a fixed blade knife. Even if pepper spray doesn't work, it may give you the split second you need to get away while he reflexively blinks.

As others have said. Keep moving and keep BSing. HTH is last ditch or to get away initially.

 

[Mannlicher]

jlbraun

(I searched around and couldn't find the answers I wanted)

you can't find the answers here. The answer lies within you. Frankly, you may not be suited for carrying a firearm yet.

 

[Devonai]

NO. You do not fist-fight while carrying a firearm.

I respectfully disagree, unless you are talking about a mutually bellicose pair of brawlers. If you are talking about an assault, as MK11 has said, you may not have time to draw.

I have done lots of close-in training with my instructor and in most cases, one must resort to some degree of HTH just to buy time to draw. If your opponent is armed, you deal with it. If you can get your weapon into play, great! If not, you have to have a way to deal with the situation.

Thugs know they have to get in close to do their work. In most environments they will be right next to you before they reveal themselves as a threat.

 

[mbt2001]

"No horse ever needed stealing, but there are people who need killing."

 

[Mojo^]

jlbraun, I firmly believe that avoidance is the best defense but there is such as thing as "the combat mindset" which you seem to lack. The situation that you describe is clearly a threat to your well being. You might want to reconsider carrying a weapon if you are not able to use it when the need arises. I would suggest that you seek professional training if you want to continue carrying a firearm. A split second hesitation could mean the difference between walking away from a confrontation and being carried away.

 

[Morglan]

FWIW, my advice is to avoid situations where this could happen.

I mean no offense, but I've CCW'd for the past 10 years, and over the last couple, I have decided that this "tactic" is not feasible, and probably shouldn't be considered.

Case in point--please explain to the folks in that Denny's restaurant in the quiet CA suburb last year, who were eating breakfast on a Sunday morning, that they never should have put themselves into a situation where someone could shoot them (unprovoked).

Unfortunately, I don't think that there are any really safe public places anymore.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

As for your question about whether you should carry pepper spray or not while also CCW'ing:

Why wouldn't you want to carry pepper spray?.

It is a foolish person who would limit himself to deadly force when there are other simple, effective means available to him.

I would much rather spray someone with OC, and while he is momentarily blinded, make my getaway, than to have to shoot him to death.

Also, at night, carry a real bright flashlight, like a Surefire - that way you can blind someone momentarily so that you may exercise options other than shooting him to death.

Despite what appears to be a certain amount of blood-lust present among some members of this forum -- it is needless to say that shooting someone is not really the best thing to do in instances where it can be avoided.
Of course... you might really, really, really want to shoot some jerk who you believe desperately deserves it, but that does not make it the right thing to do.

So... pretty much what I'm trying to say is this:

Just because a guy is a jerk to you, and you carry a gun, and you think you can get away with shooting him, doesn't mean it's alright to shoot him. Swallow your pride - sure, you might feel good teaching him a lesson through the barrel of your gun - but most certainly, the price you'll pay is gonna be more than you bargained for, especially when there are other options you had available to you.

 

[Rachen]

Some Surefires also have a Strike Bezel,

don't have to shoot em' if you can discourage them with the Strike Bezel. Hitting them in the shoulder with that can hurt a big deal and probably, hopefully encourage him to go away right there.

A fistfight is nothing to be proud about. Having a fistfight while carrying a firearm is simply the worst and the most foolish thing you can do. You will definitely face legal trouble, as well as make the impression that you are carrying a gun simply to look for a chance to use it.
Remember, the cat who can catch mice do not cry Meow. Getting into a fight simply means that you are insecure and want to prove your manhood or some other macho fantasy that you think will make you more "respected" once you get into a fight. In fact, if you start to think like that, it means you are insecure.
Like the guy at the website: www.nononsenseselfdefense.com states: A streetfighter is an a**hole. There is nothing to be glorified about being a streetfighter. Self defense, on the other hand, is what you HAVE to do in case you or someone you love in threatened with imminent death or serious injury.

I simply believe that I will be embarassed if I ever enter a fight, because it will make me look like an a**hole as well as the instigator, as well as the chance of being injured and/or having a vendetta plotted against you later. However, I carry almost all the time, and that makes me very concious of my surroundings, and it makes me a more respectable person too. I even find that my manners improve while I am carrying Never once had I felt "tough" or "ready to pick a fight" when I carried.

 

[jlbraun]

I have Ayoob's book, and just reread the section on bare fear vs. reasonable fear. I agree that the mere threat of violence is not enough for a lethal response. I'm absolutely confident that when faced with a gun, knife, or a bat I have no doubts about shooting to stop the attack. None whatsoever.

The place where I have a problem is if someone unarmed closes with me, I'm armed, I've tried to get away but that's failed, what then? Because there's already a gun in the situation (mine), the stakes are higher.

"you think you can get away with shooting him, doesn't mean it's alright to shoot him. Swallow your pride - sure, you might feel good teaching him a lesson through the barrel of your gun"

The thought of "can I get away with shooting him" never would enter my head. Jesus man.

"If you haven't thought the problem through and prepared yourself for the possibility that you might one day kill a human if you carry a lethal weapon around, then don't carry a lethal weapon."

"Frankly, you may not be suited for carrying a firearm yet."

"So essentially, you're afraid of the very reason you carry?"

Why the condescending attitude from so many? I have thought the problem through. Again. Faced with a deadly threat, shoot to stop, bangbang-bang. No hesitation there. None. Zero. I'm scared of getting my damn gun grabbed by some unarmed fool. Fear of getting one's gun grabbed is not a "combat mindset" deficency, hm? Take it easy.

"I think doing ANYTHING you can to avoid HTH combat is best."

Bingo. I've trained in martial arts for years. When my friend and I got into a fight with 2 other guys, I nearly planted a guy into a curb and gouged out the eyes of another when I thought my friend was knocked out on the ground getting kicked in the head, but didn't because I saw my friend wasn't in as much trouble as I thought he was. Now my biggest fear is letting an unarmed person who wants to fight me anywhere within striking/grabbing distance where my gun might get grabbed. I can't draw it, because he's not a lethal threat, but if I can't get away and am forced to go HTH, my gun might get grabbed. THAT's my fear, if you can even call it a fear. My last, "If the person says "I'm going to ^*&^ you up" and I draw, and the person still advances, what do I do?" was meant to illustrate that I can't draw on the guy if he's not a lethal threat.

Basically it boils down to a fear of "can't draw, but can't get away either".

So. With that in mind, what say you?

 

[JGReed]

The black and white scenarios are easy: what do to about a super-bad-guy-predator trying to kill you with a deadly weapon? Clearly you respond with whatever force is necessary to survive including deadly force. In short, shoot ‘im!

What you’re thinking about is the grey area where real life isn’t nearly as neat as the situations we like to envision. The nightmare situation you describe is a real possibility without a textbook solution. Backed into a corner by an unarmed aggressor who is determined to give you a fat lip. If he closes with you the presence of your firearm will be most likely become known and he might even take it. Can’t let that happen. So what happens if you draw and (because of the perceived immortality of youth or adrenaline or pride or just plain stupidity) the guy just doesn’t believe you’ll shoot him? He even says “Whatcha gonna do, shoot me? Go ahead, shoot me! You pull a gun on me?! I’m gonna kick you’re a$$!!!” Where do you go from there? Do you shoot the guy? Especially if you honestly don’t think your life would be in danger if it weren’t for the fact that you have a gun which might get loose and be turned against you? I don’t know. It’s ugly and agonizing and there is no easy out. If you shoot the guy you’ll have to live with what you did and you WILL have to try to convince a jury that the fact that he didn’t back down when faced with the gun YOU brought to the situation is what made him a deadly threat. A somewhat circular argument and I really REALLY hope that neither you or I ever have to be in that situation.

The obvious solution is to avoid trouble and don't get backed into the situation you describe. But if, due to bad decisions or bad luck, you get into that situation...well...I think the answer is there ain’t no good answer. I know that doesn’t help, but at least I sympathize. FWIW I do carry pepperspray.

 

[PILMAN]

Good questions man, I always was curious if the guy kept advancing even after I drew my gun. I'd think you'd have to be pretty damn crazy to keep advancing after someone has drawn their gun although I do have some idiot friends who would probably keep advancing figuring it's an airsoft gun or not real. Some people out there are legitimately nuts and dangerous though.

 

[MK11]

The answer is....it depends.

Dateline had a recent episode about a shooting in AZ. Guy was out for a hike, says he was challenged by a pair of dogs, the dogs' owner came up running and screaming and threatening to kill him and the hiker shot him.

The initial judgement was self defense--there was a real difference in size between the two, so deadly force seemed to be a reasonable option. Then the dog owner's acquintances began circulating a petition to have the shooter charged for murder. They all said he was a wonderful guy. Faced with that political pressure, the prosecutor did press charges. Testimony that the dog owner had anger issues and had been fired from several jobs because he was considered a threat to other employees was suppressed. The jury debated, decided that the hiker was in fear for his life but since someone had died (and since the hiker had used nasty hollowpoints and a big shiny gun), someone needed to pay. The hiker, in his 50s, was convicted of second degree murder, and his family, including several adopted children, are left out in the cold.

Unfortunately, people who say "it's either a good shooting or a bad shooting" are wrong. The law is what the prosecuting attorney and the blowing political winds decide it is. This case was in ARIZONA, not MA or California or any other so-called liberal hellhole. You've got good sense being concerned about it, the trick is not letting it paralyze you into not taking action to save your own life. A burst of pepper spray is a great first option against someone unarmed, and it can by you time to get out your other weapon if you need it. Part of the jury's defense of the conviction was the hiker "didn't try anything first," he just shot. Is that attitude wrong? Possibly. Is it reality? Oh, yes.