"I lost all my guns in a boating accident"

[old lady new shooter]

Guess what, there is now a thing called "magnet fishing" where the prized catch is... yep, guns.

Here's a story about it, which includes some discussion about whether a finder can be a keeper in such a case.

As Magnet Fishing Booms, More Guns Are Being Pulled from America's Waters. Can Magnet Fishers Legally Keep Them? (msn.com)

 

[Ranger99]

That's ironic
Mine were lost in an incident in the
Gulf of Mexico
Maybe if those robotic mini sub
doo dad thingys get affordable
some day they might be recovered

 

[Seedy Character]

Keep them

Shouldn't be any problems

Couple on here would be shooting at Camp Perry with them, but they know they are experts and better than everybody else.

 

[General Geoff]

I imagine most guns dragged up from a long stay at the bottom have what could be considered "obliterated" serial numbers due to corrosion. Pretty dodgy territory.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I imagine most guns dragged up from a long stay at the bottom have what could be considered "obliterated" serial numbers due to corrosion. Pretty dodgy territory.

The article did mention that, and the ones pictured look pretty ughy.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I imagine most guns dragged up from a long stay at the bottom have what could be considered "obliterated" serial numbers due to corrosion. Pretty dodgy territory.

Any prosecution of the finder for that would require the people proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the finder did the obliterating. That would be a pretty tall order, and the simple question a defense attorney might present of "why would (client) obliterate the serial number, toss it in a river for a few years, then pull it back up and turn it in to law enforcement?" casts more than a little doubt on the plausibility, especially if we're talking something so badly corroded that it ate the engraving, in which case the weapon itself almost certainly cannot be restored to operational condition.

As for the "moral obligation", take that with a grain of salt. I'm not an expert on the matter, but I've learned enough in my years about forensic evidence, chain of custody, gun traces and ballistic fingerprinting to confidently say the chances that a firearm found by a private citizen in a lake or river is going to solve an open homicide case are some number of times lower than those of winning lottery jackpots. Weapons being allowed as evidence is pretty well contingent on them having been discovered on the suspect or in their home or vehicle. Absent that, better have video evidence or eye witnesses who can testify the positively identified suspect tossed it at the location it was found.

 

[General Geoff]

Any prosecution of the finder for that would require the people proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the finder did the obliterating.

Citing 27 CFR § 478.34 - Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.

§ 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce

Nothing in there about who did the obliterating. Mere receipt and/or possession is enough to be charged with the crime.

 

[kwguy]

Citing 27 CFR § 478.34 - Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.



Nothing in there about who did the obliterating. Mere receipt and/or possession is enough to be charged with the crime.

Ouch. In that case, they’d better stop doing that.

 

[Navy87Guy]

I can see doing something like this at the sight of a famous battle or place of historical significance…I’m sure there’s lots of “treasure” out there. (They found 50 M-14 receivers in the pond of the Wesson mansion when they drained it.) But just trolling a regular lake or river looking for a random gun? I’ve got better things to do with my time…

 

[Sav .250]

Magnet fishing is fun. Been doing that for several years now. Mostly at boat ramps which Florida certainly has a few of.
Have pulled in all sorts of stuff.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Citing 27 CFR § 478.34 - Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.



Nothing in there about who did the obliterating. Mere receipt and/or possession is enough to be charged with the crime.

Incorrect.

Read the statute you cited:

§ 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce

If manufacturer markings are gone, one can't possibly know or prove where it came from or where it's been. Or if it ever bore some markings in the first place; S/Ns have not always been required. And regardless of provenance, no interstate commerce has occurred if the firearm was simply transported, so there's not even solid ground for a prosecution argument that firearms have never been manufactured in that state. Home made firearms also are not required to bear markings, not even in 2022.

As well, the issue of intent & action, not only in commerce, but the "obliteration" itself; big difference between an in-tact, functional firearm with the S/N deliberately ground away or drilled through and finds like those pictured in the article and many other places where mother nature has removed or altered many features and markings with indiscriminate oxidation & erosion.

There's also the matter of whether or not it's even a firearm anymore, which if it's so badly corroded that it no longer bears markings, we're probably talking about a gun-shaped thing that has become an orange-brown monolithic mass.

Some states may certainly have laws that could prove more problematic for the finder, but under federal, I would not be at all concerned. Of course, I also have no use for or interest in such a thing that would be new enough to bear legally required markings. If I found a horribly rusted Revolutionary, Civil or Mexican-American war relic, sure, I'd keep it. Some 20th century pistol or sporting arm in that condition? Trash.

 

[buck460XVR]

Magnet fishing is fun. Been doing that for several years now.

Same here. Did the metal detector thing a few years back too. I would assume keeping objects found while magnet fishing would be similar to those found with a metal detector. My experience is the value of the majority of items found with both methods is generally very small vs the amount of time spent. Most things I have found of value were found soon after they were lost because someone knew they should be there and were returned to their rightful owner. This included a couple of guns. Most everything else was so deteriorated from time/corrosion they had very little value left. Found some rings that were worth a few bucks at the local gold/silver buyer and tons of small change, mostly recently minted. But the anticipation of the next "find" keeps one going.

 

[General Geoff]

And regardless of provenance, no interstate commerce has occurred if the firearm was simply transported, so there's not even solid ground for a prosecution argument that firearms have never been manufactured in that state.

In accordance with Supreme Court precedent since Wickard v. Filburn, basically everything affects interstate commerce, even if an object is never transported across state lines. This is why the various state laws claiming to legalize locally manufactured but unregistered NFA firearms are null and void.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I found a number of guns and vaguely gun-shaped objects while magnet-fishing in the Black Warrior River near the University of Alabama.
I was working on a series of found-object sculptures at the time.
Fun times... .

 

[entropy]

If the gun were a Colt revolver and found in any State but Connecticut, it would fill the conditions of a crime as subsection 478.34 is written.

"....has, at any time...." is the crucial phrase.

 

[Ignition Override]

With the ATF having access to FFL records, at least for a few months after buying a gun….

I can pretend that I don’t Have such a gun? Ha ha ha….

My guns have always had “legal-length” barrels, never converted to select-fire, so no games need to be played, even for an Armslist (!) gun.

Here comes that black helicopter with a false N registration number—-

 

[Speedo66]

I guess that guy is buying Evaporust in 5 gallon increments.

 

[AK Hunter]

They allow it on public waters around here but we have to buy a permit to do it.

 

[Elkins45]

Citing 27 CFR § 478.34 - Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.



Nothing in there about who did the obliterating. Mere receipt and/or possession is enough to be charged with the crime.

Possession of a “defaced” firearm is a Class A misdemeanor under Kentucky law. The good news is that class A misdemeanor offenses in Kentucky are criminal charges that carry penalties of not more than twelve months in jail. The 4473 asks about conviction of a crime for which the penalty could have been more that one year, so conviction under state law wouldn’t make you a prohibited person.

 

[The Night Rider]

Several years ago the city drained Prospect Lake to seal the bottom.

In addition to a Volkswagen bug they found multiple guns.

 

[Mk VII]

A friend, now dead, used to be a police diver. Anytime they searched a pond or under a bridge they would find guns down there. Most times they didnt even bother bringing them up, unless they were looking for one, as it only caused paperwork.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

"Nachtwey hopes it will become standard practice for the magnet fishing community to call the police after finding a gun and that police will start engaging more with what could be evidence in criminal investigations."

Bull!

Know what I'd be doing with all of the rusted up hunks of junk I might find?

I'd save them all up and find me a "Buy Back" somewhere and get me some cold, hard cash so I can go out and by myself MORE firearms! If the police want more information on them, I'll happily point them to the rivers, lakes, and streams they came from...AFTER they give me the money for them!

 

[Pat Riot]

Years ago I used to fish Lake Norman in North Carolina. I considered getting a magnet and going done magnet fishing, but then I remembered my foray as a teen into using a metal detector that my Dad bought to find “treasures” around out property and near the sight of an old river ferry.
All I found were railroad spikes and square nails. I did find a revolver that was so badly rusted and decayed it was just a gun shaped lump.
I decided to spend my time on the lake fishing for fish, not rebar and old rusty indiscernible objects.

 

[lemaymiami]

This is interesting and maybe, just maybe... do-able in freshwater... Not the same in saltwaters., though. Believe I've spoken of this previously here but some years ago (early eighties...) I was in charge of my Department's property room and as custodian was responsible for seeing that weapons no longer needed for court and with no identifiable owner were destroyed (in my case I inherited a full 55 gallon garbage can with an assortment of handguns, long guns, etc.). Previously we'd had them melted down but being a former commercial fisherman I asked for and received permission to run them offshore of Miami Beach and dump them from our patrol boat....

With a witness aboard and out in over 300 feet of water (the depths off of Miami Beach drop off pretty quickly) so we were within four miles of the coast at the time. We kept the vessel moving slowly and dropped them individually over a pretty wide area. If any one of them were ever recovered you'd have ended up with something in the form of a firearm -but not in working condition even a few weeks later.. Saltwaters are hard on steel and other metals.. Given the depth involved I doubt a single one was ever recovered by anyone...

 

[Pat Riot]

I just recalled something.
I remember a guy on Lake Norman that appeared to be having trouble with his anchor. I went over to him in my bass boat to see if he needed help. It turns out his magnet was fixed on something and he couldn’t get it loose. I recall him saying something about “a buck a pound”, which I thought equated to scrap steel prices. I asked him what he meant he said ge had paid $100 for his magnet and it would lift 100 pounds.
I am not sure if he got his rope tangled on something or the magnet was attached to something big, but I came away thinking that if I were going to do this I would get a magnet with maybe a 20 pound pull and I sure as heck wouldn’t buy an expensive one in case I had to cut it loose.
I have no idea if the guy ever got his magnet back or whatever the prize was that it was attached to.
There were no boat ramps nearby, so I doubt it was a Buick.