I must be doing something wrong...

[gonoles_1980]

Since I have a snub nose Charter Arm 38, I might blame a couple of mis-fires on the gun. But this time, I had about 20 "hit" mis-fires out of 50 rounds, 75% of the first shots where mis-fires on the first "hit". Many went off on the second hit. I save the misfires and tried set of rounds with them (5ea), about 2 of 5 of those would go off. I ended up with a total of 7 of the 50 bullets that didn't fire, so I was able to get the other 13 to fire with a 2nd or 3rd firing pin "hit".

After firing that 50, I shot 30 rounds of factory wad-cutters, not one issue.

I'm using cci small pistol primers, 3.5 grains of W231 and Speer LRN's. I know the load is light, but it fires fine when it fires, though I probably will move up to 3.7 grains.

Could I have a bad batch of CCI's? Maybe I should switch to Winchester primers?

 

[Magnum Shooter]

Sounds like you are not seating your primers fully to the bottom of the primer pocket.

 

[ATLDave]

What Mag' Shooter said. If you don't get the primer seated, the energy from the hammer strike goes into seating the primer. The second strike can then ignite it. Or, the strike may have been just enough to dislodge some of the primer compound from the primer itself, and the second strike may not have anything to pinch between the cup and anvil, and you get an inert round.

For those that did not ever go off, have you pulled the bullet? Checked to see whether there was powder? Checked to see if there was any yellow primer material mixed into the powder?

OTOH, CCI is not the softest primer. Some revolvers with lightened springs will only ignite Federal primers (generally thought to be the softest) reliably. But you didn't mention anything about trigger work on the gun.

 

[gonoles_1980]

Thanks for the responses...

I haven't pulled the bullets yet. I do not believe there has been any trigger work done to the gun. Though I'm think of taking it to a gun smith to check the firing pin spring since even with factory ammo I'm getting about a 1.5 in 100 mis-fire rate with the gun.

I'll look for federal primers and give that a try. In the mean-time, I spend a lot of time watching video's on seating primers.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

First check the seating depth on the primers. I use my thumbnail, run it over the primer. If you feel a bump the primer isn't seated.

 

[ATLDave]

OK, if you're getting misfires on factory ammo, a trip to the 'smith seems in order. Although you may be combining that with incompletely-seated primers.

BTW, I'm familiar with this because when I started reloading, this was the first (and only) real problem I encountered (also with .38 spl). I was just so afraid of accidentally igniting the primer in the press that I wasn't using enough force to get it seated. You don't want to use a lot of speed, but for many kinds of brass, you do need to use a pretty firm pull on the handle.

 

[gonoles_1980]

AtlDave I think you're onto something...

I think it's a mix, I have between a 1% to 2% failure rate with factory ammo, I think that's the Charter Arms snub nose 38spl. I do plan on having a gunsmith look at the spring. I'm also looking to buy a new guy, either another 38spl, or a 357 magnum. I like the revolvers. If I want to shoot an automatic, I can just use my wife's.

And yes, I'm probably leery of blowing up the primer when I'm seating it. I have a hand primer and it's very possible I'm not seating deep enough. I would venture to say, that's a high probability.

Jesse, I'll try your trick with the thumbnail (if I quit biting them down).

 

[il.bill]

Can the primers be seated too deep?

The only problem I have encountered with my reloaded .38 spl. cartridges failing to fire appeared to be caused by my seating the primers TOO DEEP, pushing them all the way home with my Lee hand primer.
Every one of the 20-40% out of 200 reloads that failed to fire had the primer seated >.002" BELOW the surface of the case. I finally got all but about a dozen of them to fire by trying them in different revolvers. I think my Uberti SAA .357 had the best results, I figured it was because it had by far the newest and least worn firing pin.
Since then I am careful to stop pushing the primer in when it is just barely below flush, and have not had a single failure since doing it that way. I would think that unless the primer fits loosely in the pocket, friction should hold it tight enough for the firing pin to crush the cap into the anvil. When a primer slides too easily into a loose pocket I gently push it back out and throw that case into the brass recycling bag
Having said all that, I must admit that I have only been reloading handgun ammo a couple of years, so I will certainly defer to my more knowledgeable and experienced reloading comrades. I just wanted to relate what works for me.

Can a handgun primer be seated too deep into the pocket?

 

[BYJO4]

Based on everything said, I have to agree that you have a problem with both the gun and primer seating. A good gunsmith can adjust/repair your revolver. You will need to seat primers deeper (they should be slightly below the base of the case).

 

[rcmodel]

I think that's the Charter Arms snub nose 38spl.

I think you are probably right.

I bought two brand new ones years ago over a 1 year period.

And both were totally unreliable in DA with every brand of ammo I tried in them.

Far as I could determine?

There is no reliable fix.

Except trading them for Model 36 S&W Chiefs Special's!!

But check your primer seating depth first before doing anything else.

The primer cup must be seated bottomed out in the primer pocket to seat the primer anvil and preload the primer pellet so it will fire.

rc

 

[Ifishsum]

FWIW, my brother-in-law has a GP100 that does not reliably fire reloads made with CCI primers - first strike failure rate in the 20-25% range. I know that we had the primers seated correctly, and there may be something up with his revolver but we tried switching his loads to Winchester primers and the problem disappeared completely. That's not a knock on CCI primers, I still use them almost exclusively with no such issues. But they are known to have somewhat thicker cups than other brands, possibly exposing a slightly marginal hammer spring or firing pin protrusion issue.

 

[HighExpert]

I have two competition guns that hate CCI primers. They are too hard for anything but a heavy strike. Try Winchester instead. That being said, if factory is screwing up, you have a spring and/or a firing pin problem.

 

[flashhole]

Some good comments so far. You could also have your primers seated too deep. Compare your loads with the factory loads for seating depth and see where you are.

 

[gonoles_1980]

Several things I'll try...

I'm going to switch out a 100 primers with a buddy of mine who has some Winchester primers.

I reloaded 50 today, I really have to admit I don't have the "feel" down. Some pressed in easy, some took a little bit more pressure. None are above the bottom surface. But I'll be honest, I can't tell the difference between .002 and .005 inches with the eyeball. I did use the back of my Caliper to get some random depth, measured from .003 to .005, but really how accurate can you measure depth that small?

I do plan on taking the gun to a gun smith. I'm going to save the "duds" for the next time my sister-in-law comes down, she has a S&W 38spl, I'll see if they fire in it.

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

I'm going to switch out a 100 primers with a buddy of mine who has some Winchester primers.

I reloaded 50 today, I really have to admit I don't have the "feel" down. Some pressed in easy, some took a little bit more pressure. None are above the bottom surface. But I'll be honest, I can't tell the difference between .002 and .005 inches with the eyeball. I did use the back of my Caliper to get some random depth, measured from .003 to .005, but really how accurate can you measure depth that small?

I do plan on taking the gun to a gun smith. I'm going to save the "duds" for the next time my sister-in-law comes down, she has a S&W 38spl, I'll see if they fire in it.

0.004 of an inch is the thickness of a piece of new normal printer paper or a brand new dollar bill. It is one of the things we used to measure when I was in high school and we were learning to use a micrometer and calipers so we could learn to use the metal lathe. At least it will give you an idea what .004 looks like.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

To measure depths that small you need a better base. I have seen clamp-on bases for calipers made by Starrett and B&S. A depth micrometer is a good tool for that, but not really necessary for most reloading.

You can also get a feel for the depth by holding a thin straightedge across the base. A 6" scale is what I use. But it's real hard to seat too deep, and I have had reliable ignition in all of my handguns with primers seated between flush and .005.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Below flush

Primers should be seated so that the base of the primer is below flush with the base of the cartridge.

Never should they stick out. If you place a cartridge on a tabletop and it does not sit flat, you have an inadequately seated primer. If the primer is even with the base of the cartridge, it is inadequately seated.

Take a look at a primer from the side. The feet of the anvil stick up above the rim of the primer cup. When seated, the anvil is supposed to press gently into the priming compound. This makes the primer compound "primed" for ignition. ATLDave's post is very helpful understanding how this works.

Lost Sheep

 

[Archie]

GoNoles, most likely you have not seated the primers against the inner ledge. However, if your revolver is not igniting factory ammo as well, I would suspect something amiss with the revolver as well. I did once have a non-ignition problem with a revolver. Turns out, the lubrication around the hammer had clogged with dust and congealed - for lack of a better term - over time and was actually softening the blow of the hammer and therefore, firing pin. Just a thought.

Il.Bill; Yes, it is possible to seat primers too deeply. Normally that will break up the primer compound and cause misfires, hangfires and inadequate ignition. However, I must say, one must work at seating a primer too firmly. The typical problem is not quite enough.

 

[gamestalker]

Seat primers at least .004 below the case head, and your problem will vanish along with the bullet.

GS

 

[hatwerinrednek]

Sounds like you are not seating your primers fully to the bottom of the primer pocket.

hmm,, thats interesting,, never knew that a primer not seated deep enough would cause a missfire, ive heard of primer pockets being cut too deep and causing this in rifles. learn something new every day.

 

[ATLDave]

Yep, it sure will. Did it myself with some of my first reloads, too scared to really apply the force to get the primers fully seated. Saw it happen in a dove field over the weekend to a guy shooting reloaded shot shells.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

never knew that a primer not seated deep enough would cause a missfire

If the primer anvil isn't against the cartridge, it probably won't go bang when the firing pin hits the primer. There has to be some compression for the chemistry to ignite.

 

[Potatohead]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/329291/rcbs-hand-priming-tool

 

[gamestalker]

If the primer isn't seated all the way home, as in making contact with the bottom of the pocket, the primer will fail on the initial strike and will require additional FP impacts to detonate. After some time behind the press, you will begin to know by feel when it is seated all the way home. I always recomend at least .004" below the case head, but I've read in my Speer manual that some pockets will require up to .008" below flush. So I seriously doubt it has anything to do with your Charter Arms.

GS

 

[James2]

Yes, put those primers in all the way. For many years I primed on the press and gave them a good firm push. Never had a primer fail. I now prime with a hand priming tool, and likewise press till it won't go any deeper. As noted, the anvil needs to touch bottom or it won't fire. I don't think it is possible to seat them too deep. Push them in till they stop. I also have never set one off seating it. I have even had them flip and get seated sidewise, then the only way to get the brass out of the shell holder is to crush the primer.
Still have not set one off doing that. I am not saying its impossible, just that it doesn't happen very often.