I think I may have been totally wrong...

[thomas15]

My primary reason for wanting to add a 9mm to my LCR family is to have more range sessions because of the cheaper ammo. And with the moonclips making a smaller package for ammo it would definitely go into my EDC rotation.

Looks like a no-brainer so get it now.

Folks screaming 9mm over 38 are NOT reloaders. Stick a 115 9mm down the neck of a 38spl and load a chunk of fast powder... it’s gets interesting in a hurry.

What will happen?

I use 38 bullets (.358 coated) in my 9mm revolver. I use 9mm (.357 plated) bullets in my 38 spl revolver.

 

[SwampWolf]

Maybe you wouldn't need to carry a speed loader if your LCR carried one more round... (.327 Federal Magnum).

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Bullets by the inch puts a 9mm 124gr from a 2in barrel at 900fps rather than the 1160 stated here earlier. So, I would look into that data a bit more before one makes up their mind. The .327 also shines in longer barrels, 1600fps in 6in barrels where the 9mm is doing 1300 or so.

I like the 9mm fine but in a wheel gun I'll go with other options.

Also, the .327 has a gain of many other rounds you can run in it to go from mild to wild.

 

[fordtrucks]

Bullets by the inch puts a 9mm 124gr from a 2in barrel at 900fps rather than the 1160 stated here earlier. So, I would look into that data a bit more before one makes up their mind. The .327 also shines in longer barrels, 1600fps in 6in barrels where the 9mm is doing 1300 or so.

I like the 9mm fine but in a wheel gun I'll go with other options.

Also, the .327 has a gain of many other rounds you can run in it to go from mild to wild.

One issue not accounted for in the bbti data is the extra space in front of the bullet/case. You need to measure to the back/primer end of the bullet to be equivalent on bbti data for “barrel length” between revolver and semi-auto.

That is why the 2” lcr gives faster actual bullets than the bbti 2” barrel.

 

[WheelGunMan]

Bullets by the inch puts a 9mm 124gr from a 2in barrel at 900fps rather than the 1160 stated here earlier. So, I would look into that data a bit more before one makes up their mind. The .327 also shines in longer barrels, 1600fps in 6in barrels where the 9mm is doing 1300 or so.

This guy has some real world info.

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2016/05/ruger-arx-9mm-p-ammunition-test-and.html?m=1

 

[WheelGunMan]

Looks like a no-brainer so get it now.

I gotta sell off some tractors first! To dam many hobbies!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Just a reminder that with revolver chambered for rimless cartridges, you do not need a moon clip to shoot the rounds, but to extract the empty cases you'll have to push them out with a tool.

You're right -- but that means you're back in the 1870s with the Colt Single Action when it comes to getting the empties out. And you may recall, at the Little Bighorn, there were lots of cartridge cases found, but precious few .45 Colt cases. When you consider that every cavalryman had a Colt .45, that tells us something.

 

[Spug]

Interesting thread. One thing that I'd like to refute is the "why load for bear in a snub, carry something more appropriate?" argument. I carry primarily for threats against my person from other people who might wish me harm. But I also live in an area where black bear can get quite large and start causing problems. Part of this stems from the fact that our state wildlife agency will tranquilize problem bears in population centers where the political fallout from killing a bear is considered untenable, and then they bring them out here to a rural area and let them go, often to continue their mayhem until someone shoots, shovels, and shuts up. I have had to shoot a bear that had broken into a neighbors house and was trying to get into my chicken coop. It made the front page of the local paper. I've also had a bear break into my barn in the night and kill full-sized dairy goats. That didn't make it into the paper. Just this summer a large sow was making the rounds with two cubs, going right up to people's houses and showing little concern for people. That bear was eventually shot by a neighbor and discretely disposed of, from what I heard. It was wearing a collar.

At the same time, these occurrences are infrequent enough, and the hassle of carrying and dressing around a larger gun inconvenient enough, that I usually carry a .380 or 9mm compact auto. But in the back of my mind I do consider the possibility that I could possibly run into something that weighs 500 pounds and is not afraid of me when I come home from work, courtesy of my state wildlife department perhaps.

With all these considerations I tend to gravitate towards heavier weight bullets, in case their penetration is needed. In 9mm, the 147 grain loads are also mostly subsonic, an important consideration if you care about your hearing. So I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions not as much about 124 or 125 grain projectiles, but something like the 147 gr 9mm or 158 grain .38.

Edit to add: the reason I chimed in on this here is that I'd like to get a lightweight snub and have been agonizing about the S&W 442/642 vs Ruger LCR for a while. Like the aesthetics of the former much more, especially without the lock, but like the replaceable front sight and supposedly better trigger of the Ruger too. I do reload for .38 Special, so cost of ammo isn't that much of an issue, although 9mm plinking ammo is pretty inexpensive in bulk and no time commitment. I tend to be a traditionalist with revolvers so it feels like sacrilege, but if I went all space-aged with the LCR for it's modern benefits why not go for 9mm?

 

[Tallball]

I shoot this one at the range quite often. I am too lazy to use moon clips. The empty brass generally just falls out if I point the barrel up. Sometimes I have to pull one out with my finger. I'm not talking about "tactical" use, but for range trips and plinking, moon clips don't seem all that necessary to me. Or maybe this particular 625 is just abnormal...

Smith And Wesson Model 625

• Tallball
• Apr 5, 2018

 

[mcb]

Moonclips Rule!



Buy moonclips in bulk! Load the moonclips, lots of moonclips, at home. Test the loaded moonclips at home (safely). Go to the range or match and shoots lots without having to worry about reloading magazines or speed-loaders. Go home, and at your leisure, you can break down the moonclips and reload them for the next range-trip or match.

 

[TTv2]

Bullets by the inch puts a 9mm 124gr from a 2in barrel at 900fps rather than the 1160 stated here earlier. So, I would look into that data a bit more before one makes up their mind. The .327 also shines in longer barrels, 1600fps in 6in barrels where the 9mm is doing 1300 or so.

I like the 9mm fine but in a wheel gun I'll go with other options.

Also, the .327 has a gain of many other rounds you can run in it to go from mild to wild.

I agree with you on .327, it's a standard revolver cartridge, high pressure magnum that gets more out of a longer barrel than a rimless auto pistol cartridge like 9mm. I still like .327, I'll probably be getting a 4.2" SP101 in .327 by Thanksgiving, but in a snub... Idk. I still think the .327 LCR is the best choice for a defensive gun for someone who can't take recoil due to health or hand strength issues as .32 S&W Long is really mild, yet better than .22 rimfire.

For those who don't have issues with recoil, but don't want to deal with .357 in a snub, when I see anything 124 grain hitting in excess of 1150 fps from a snub, I can't help but be impressed. Is that better than a .327 going 1350 fps from the LCR? No, not on paper, the .327 still has more energy, but I don't think an extra 30 or 40 foot/pounds is going to be the difference between you living or not.

I'm finding more that the .327 seems to find it's best purpose in rifles and long barrel revolvers. I wish Ruger would make a special SP101 in .327 with a 6 inch barrel, it would fit the cartridge perfectly.

But this topic is about snubs and I'm as big a fan of .327 as you'll find, but I can't ignore that 9mm seems more perfect for the LCR than any other cartridge.

 

[somethingbenign]

Capacity comes in to consideration for me. How much energy increase do you need to offset 20% extra capacity? Between capacity, cost of ammo, availability, moons, and recoil it really is a wash almost between 9 and 327 and its varients. Really comes down to which one of those features is most important to you. For me I'll just try to buy them both so I don't have to decide.

 

[WestKentucky]

But this topic is about snubs and I'm as big a fan of .327 as you'll find, but I can't ignore that 9mm seems more perfect for the LCR than any other cartridge.

Want to talk .40sw or .357sig? A .40 would be snappy, but not like a .357. I have a .327 snub, but I think a .40 wins the round for being best, if they would do it.

 

[TTv2]

Want to talk .40sw or .357sig? A .40 would be snappy, but not like a .357. I have a .327 snub, but I think a .40 wins the round for being best, if they would do it.

The LCR is built around .38/.357, the .40 caliber is too large.

 

[TTv2]

Capacity comes in to consideration for me. How much energy increase do you need to offset 20% extra capacity? Between capacity, cost of ammo, availability, moons, and recoil it really is a wash almost between 9 and 327 and its varients. Really comes down to which one of those features is most important to you. For me I'll just try to buy them both so I don't have to decide.

I can do that, but it's kind of wasteful owning two snub revolvers. If Ruger would hurry up with the 3 inch LCRx in .327, I'd rather have that as the longer barrel gives more velocity. That's more of a trail gun, so I'd still get the 9mm LCR too for CCW.

 

[Dibbs]

If you watched the video, you'd have understood that 9mm is superior to .38

The first thing the video does, in case YOU haven't watched it, is use 125 grain 38 special ammo.
Most normal 38 and 357 ammo is 158 grain, and you can get 180 grain. I watched the video, and
yes, if you manipulate bullet weights to compensate for the fact that you can't even get higher
bullet weights in 9mm, thus initially skewing the test, then you certainly can make it look as though
9mm is superior.

Like I said, get back to me, when you come up with some 180 grain 9mm bullets.

 

[TTv2]

The first thing the video does, in case YOU haven't watched it, is use 125 grain 38 special ammo.
Most normal 38 and 357 ammo is 158 grain, and you can get 180 grain. I watched the video, and
yes, if you manipulate bullet weights to compensate for the fact that you can't even get higher
bullet weights in 9mm, thus initially skewing the test, then you certainly can make it look as though
9mm is superior.

Like I said, get back to me, when you come up with some 180 grain 9mm bullets.

Why would I need a 9mm with a 180 grain bullet when I already can't think of a reason (besides suppressors) to use a 147 grain 9mm?

Weight isn't everything.

 

[Dibbs]

You're missing the point. The comparison is crap, because you're skewing the sample
cartridges by "matching" 9mm with 38 by reducing the 38 load to it's lightest load.
It's not a matter of what you want. It's simply not an accurate test.

Paul makes a lot of decent videos, and I don't dislike him, but this info is not accurate.
I shoot 9mm, got a lot of them. Also have .357. 9mm is not .357. I know you want it to be,
but sorry. Do some real ballistics comparisons for yourself.

 

[TTv2]

You're missing the point. The comparison is crap, because you're skewing the sample
cartridges by "matching" 9mm with 38 by reducing the 38 load to it's lightest load.
It's not a matter of what you want. It's simply not an accurate test.

Paul makes a lot of decent videos, and I don't dislike him, but this info is not accurate.
I shoot 9mm, got a lot of them. Also have .357. 9mm is not .357. I know you want it to be,
but sorry. Do some real ballistics comparisons for yourself.

Please calm down.

The comparison is not "crap", we know a 9mm can't shoot a 147 grain as well as a .38 can shoot a 158 grain, but that doesn't mean it's not better with a more proper self defense load using a lighter bullet that's also light recoiling. Your complaint about reducing .38 or .357 to its lightest load rings hollow because all you want to do is compare 9mm to the heaviest loads for .38/.357.

I have never read or heard anyone who is credited as being a self defense expert or instructor who has advocated the use of a 180 grain bullet in .38 or .357 Mag in a snub nose revolver for self defense against a human being. A snub revolver is designed around conceal carry and personal protection, not stopping a large animal.

Comparing 124 grain 9mm, which is widely regarded as sufficient for self defense, to 180 grain .357, which is an uncommon loading for the caliber and when it is loaded is marketed only as HUNTING ammunition, is an even poorer comparison.

I clearly didn't phrase it properly when I said 9mm is superior to .38, so I'll rephrase it and say 9mm is superior to .38 in a snub revolver intended for self defense.

 

[MidRoad]

One thing that is nice about the heavy 38's is you don't need them to make that 1100 fps (.357 speeds in a snubby). They can chug along at that 750-800 fps and still have more than adequate penetration when using a swc, reducing muzzle flash and recoil. You can see that in the video. 9mm is alot higher pressure of a round than .38, in the video you can hear it's louder and see the recoil is snappier, with a revolver you dont have a slide to soak that up. Folks worry about over penetration, when using a swc's over a hallow point. Well tell ya what under stress , adrenaline pumping, and a sub 2" barrel, you're most likely going to have to worry about missing the target than over penetration. But yes you are indeed right when it comes to the lighter bullet selection, 9 is superior in that aspect . Again im not sayng the .38 is a better. It brings different options to the table, and is still very viable. Numbers on paper don't tell the hole story.

 

[Riomouse911]

I like snub 5 and 6 shot .38 revolvers. I have several, and shoot them pretty well. I even have some "snub" (2", 2.5" and 3") .357's and a 3" .44 Spl mid-frame revolver. I can shoot them all pretty well.

I like subcompact 7 and 8 shot 9mm autos. I have one, and shoot it just fine.

I don't see a need (for me, anyway) for a snub 9mm revolver. I see that there may be some slight increase in performance over an almost similar .38 Spl load, but is that little jump in performance worth the downsides of a snub revolver vs. subcompact semi auto?

The initial cost of the snub gun is just about the same as the cost for a comparable subcompact auto; I get more shots in the auto; it's much easier reloading an auto under stress than a revolver and extra ammo is easier to carry with a flat mag compared to speed strips, moon clips or speedloaders. All that, plus the 3"-3.5" closed barrel of the subcompact semi has even better ballistic performance (Again, it's slight) than the 1 7/8" to 2" snub with the mandatory B/C gap.

Now, if I am in a place that restricts the purchasing or ownership of semi-autos, there may be a point to the 5-shot 9mm revolver vs a .38 Spl....since I can't have a semi.

Until then....I think I'll pass on the 9mm snubbies and let you guys hash it out.

Stay safe!

 

[Dibbs]

Well, 22LR is superior to 9mm. All you have to do is use a 32 grain bullet, in 9mm, to compare the
ballistics, and you'll see that 9mm is inferior...

 

[TTv2]

Well, 22LR is superior to 9mm. All you have to do is use a 32 grain bullet, in 9mm, to compare the
ballistics, and you'll see that 9mm is inferior...

Terrible comparison, a hysterical argument.

 

[TTv2]

Then just carry one of these.
View attachment 807875

Seriously, revolvers aren't designed to run rimless ammo. Why do you think the military went away from revolvers using rimless ammo 65 years ago? Here's a clue. As a defensive weapon they don't work as well as a pistol with a magazine. Yeah, I know, this isn't the military, but if you use that same logic for rifles the AR-15 would have no place in the civilian population. Round pegs in square holes.

I have a 625 that uses moon clips but it's a 45 ACP range gun. I shoot it often and understand how they work. I also carry a model 36 occasionally but mostly I carry a compact 9mm pistol. 8 beats 5 any day.

This is a logical fallacy, the military moved away from revolvers in general before WW1, which was 100 years ago and the only reason they issued them during WW1 was because of shortages with the 1911.

Revolvers work fine for defensive weapons, they're just not used today because capacities are greater with pistols, pistols are cheaper to make, and reloads are slightly slower, but with a moon clip, you're looking at almost the same speed to reload.

8 does beat 5, that's pretty simple math, but I'm not looking at the LCR 9mm as a primary carry, more as a backup.

 

[CoalTrain49]

8 does beat 5, that's pretty simple math, but I'm not looking at the LCR 9mm as a primary carry, more as a backup.

Backup? What happened to the two shot statistics from your post #14?

The stats show when a gun is fired defensively by a civilian, it's usually one of two shots that are fired and reloads are extremely rare.

but with a moon clip, you're looking at almost the same speed to reload.

I can see you don't use moon clips that much. Sometimes you have to deal with cases that expand in the cylinder enough to cause resistance during extraction. 9mm pressures are about 2x that of 38 spl. You also have to keep the cylinders much cleaner than a mag or mag well to prevent that. Lots of people who shoot 45 ACP in revolvers don't like moon clips and use 45 auto rim for that reason.

9mm Para just wasn't designed to be used in a revolver. If it was there would be a 9mm auto rim cartridge, which of course there isn't. That probably should tell you something right there.