I was thinking about a .280 AI but then the 6.5 PRC came along.

[MCMXI]

I'm in the process of converting a Kimber 8400 WSM 300 WSM to 6.5 PRC and have been running some numbers. The .280 AI is a great hunting cartridge for sure, and the 6.5 PRC is being touted as primarily a PRS cartridge, but I wanted to see if the PRC makes sense as a hunting round. What I discovered when comparing similar loads is that the 6.5 PRC has less wind drift at all ranges and more energy beyond 300 yards when comparing factory ammunition, and more energy beyond 200 yards when comparing the best case handloads.

Comparing Kimber rifles, an 84L Montana .280 AI weighs about 10 oz less than an 8400 WSM Montana, is about 1/2" longer, holds one more round but will have more felt recoil given that typical .280 AI bullets have more energy at the muzzle and the rifle is lighter. I figured that a .280 AI was in my future but now I don't think it is. For the handloader, the 6.5 PRC and .280 AI hold just about the same amount of powder at around 60gr but the 6.5mm bullets should be a little cheaper than the 7mm bullets.

The green cells indicate the best performance compared to the other loads in the same image.

 

[LoonWulf]

Nope, no logical reason to chose the .280 in this case as you already know you like the rifle the PRC comes in.

At the same time I dont think the .280 slightly lower balistic performance would be a big handicap.
The extra round, and the ability to handle heavier bullets might also make sense depending on usage.

Again tho it all comes down to personal use and preference. I have zero interest in the PRC right now as i already have a 6.5-284, but the round has merit, and its about time theres a true factory 6.5 short magnum.

 

[LocoGringo]

I just learned about this caliber from a coworker this morning. He ordered a Seekins bolt action hunter in this caliber that weighs in a 7 pounds without an optic. I, literally, just looked up the round about a half hour ago and it has GREAT merit as both a hunting round and a PRS round, depending on what bullet you choose. Since it was developed by Hornady, it will be supported for both activities by Hornady.

When my coworker told me about it having approximately 300 fps more than the 6.5 Creedmoor, I was worried about it being a barrel burner, but in one of the videos I found, it was specifically developed to not be too bad. He did say he is having a hard time finding reloading dies for it. The round certainly sounds interesting...

 

[js8588]

I was going to pick up a couple 6.5 Creedmoors this year, but the PRC offers an actual, measurable performance increase over my 6.5x55s.

6.5 Grendel, 6.5x55, 6.5 PRC, and (my next "tax return gun") 6.5-300 Weatherby. Pretty much covers all my needs (9.3x62 and 404 Jeffery will cover the obvious gaps).

Yeah, I have "standard" calibres too, but when it comes to hunting rounds, it's fun to be different.

 

[Goosey]

To compare to the 143 gr ELD-X load for the 6.5 PRC it seems only fair to use Hornady's new .280 AI ELD-X load.

.280 ACKLEY IMP. 162 GR ELD-X
​

6.5 PRC 143 GR ELD-X


​

 

[LoonWulf]

^ I agree, and thats the balistic rub when stepping up in caliber, you also need to increase bullet weight to achieve a similar BC. Getting that increased BC also mean you loose some velocity it most cases.
If were comparing the 280 to the 6.5prc, than we SHOULD be looking at the 160+ class bullets in 7mm. At which point the 6.5 builds still holds a velocity advantage, given its capacity it should easily break 3000fps with the 140 class bullets.

At least thats the theory

I dont have an entry for the PRC in my quickloads data base, but using the Leopard, the 6.5 Rsaum, and the 6.5 Remington Magnum (I didnt forget the Rem mag in my earlier post, but its not much of a contender anymore). I used the 6.5Rsaum and reduced capacity by 3 grns to see what expected velocities are.
With 140s the predictions are about 3050-3100, which is nothing to sneeze at considering bcs in the .62+ range.
The .280AI will probably be about 100fps behind with best loads and 162 class bullets, also with BCs in the .62+ range.
If were using quickloads numbers and the consideration that the PRC actually holds 3-4Grns less water as posted the .280 actually holds about a 5grn capacity advantage

Both from 24" barrels

The 6.5-06 equals the PRC in capacity according to quickloads so out of curiosity I played with that as well, pretty similar results with top loads getting up around 3100.

 

[jmr40]

My thoughts, we've had the 264 WM for quite a while that is a fast 6.5. On paper it looked good, but it never went anywhere. Partly because it burned up barrels quite fast. I'd think the 6.5 prc would do the same.

I no longer put much weight on energy numbers for hunting. If the bullet has enough mass to give the needed penetration, and impacts with enough velocity to reliably expand I figure it is good to go at that range. The speed at which a projectile leaves the muzzle is irrelevant, it is the speed at which it impacts that matters. Most standard bullets will still expand down to about 1800 fps. Some harder premium bullets need to hit faster. Trajectory is simply not a factor at these ranges. You need a range finder and a scope with long range dots or dials with any of them.

Loaded with the 143 gr ELDX @ 2700 fps the Creedmoor still impacts at 1800 fps between 600-700 yards.

The 6.5 PCR with the same bullet drops below that level at just over 800 yards

The 280 AI according to ballistics shown above does so between 700-800 yards. But with a 19 gr heavier bullet, larger diameter bullet.

It depends on how far you want to shoot, and have the skills to shoot. At 500 yards or less i don't see any animal ever knowing the difference. Beyond 500 they are all within 50-150 yards of the same effective range.

 

[old heeler]

I have 280AI and I didn't build it to shoot 150gr ABLR bullets. Nosler 6.5 142gr ABLR has correct BC to .625 vs .719 in there manual. Berger 140gr VLD 6.5 is .611 and Hornady 6.5 143gr ELD-X is .625.

Nosler had correct BC for 7mm 168grABLR to .616,Berger VLD 7mm 168gr .617, Hornady 162gr ELD-X BC .630.

Hornady load data
https://press.hornady.com/assets/site/hornady/files/load-data/6.5-prc-v2.pdf

This is what I was trying to post

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2017/10/new-hornady-6-5-prc-precision-rifle-cartridge/

 

[Llama Bob]

A few thoughts:

• This looks like a non-starter for the PRS game despite the name. There are plenty of 6.5 mags available now, and PRS is a game where people are happy to wildcat. Zero out of the top 100 shooters use a magnum. This will not change that.
  
• As a hunting cartridge, this is a great idea for the same reason the .264WM is a great idea - all-NA dangerous game capable (using the 160gr weldcore for elk & moose), acceptable .30-06 class recoil, and best in class reach plus the option for .257 Weatherby type hydrostatic shock on smaller game with 100gr type bullets
• This is a better case than the .264WM
• Hornady has only one 6.5mm bullet I would hunt with - the 120gr Interbond. It's not offered in loaded ammo and unlikely to be. The ELD-X while sleek has dubious terminal performance.
• No rifles are currently available
  
• With no rifles to buy and no ammo I want to use, this is currently no better than 6.5 Leopard, and worse than .264WM. That may change.
• The BC advantages from tips and boat tails diminish in small calibers. The Woodleigh 6.5mm protected point flat base has a G1 BC of 0.5. Bullet construction is more important than BC in the hunting game. I don't think Hornady understands this.
• Hornady's factory ballistics are a little anemic - they drive a 147gr slower than I drive a 160gr in the .264. Maybe case capacity is smaller than I think or they're just cautious.

All in all it's an interesting development. If MRC or Winchester offers a gun I'll probably buy it. If Kimber does, I might buy it.

 

[old heeler]

You can order one of these.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/new-sauer-100-pantera-rifle-6-5-prc-shot-show-2018/

When I posted deal from accurateshooter what I found interesting was the comments on the 6.5 PRC.

 

[Legionnaire]

So how does the 6.5 PRC compare to GAP's 6.5 SAUM?

Edit: Never mind; I found my answer. Think I'll stick with my 7 SAUM.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2017/10/new-hornady-6-5-prc-precision-rifle-cartridge/

 

[MCMXI]

There are lots of good points made and I want to make the point that I'm not trying to show (or claiming) that the 6.5 PRC is a better hunting cartridge than the .280 AI, just that it has merit for hunting such that anyone thinking of making a choice between the two can't go far wrong with either one ... or both.

To compare to the 143 gr ELD-X load for the 6.5 PRC it seems only fair to use Hornady's new .280 AI ELD-X load.

You make a good point. I compared loads/bullets used by a couple of coworkers but it's interesting to compare two factory loads from Hornady which are at the upper end for each cartridge. This indicates to me that they're very similar cartridges, but in the case of Kimber rifles at least, the PRC will have less felt recoil due to more weight and less muzzle energy which should translate into better accuracy/precision downrange.

On paper at least the 6.5 PRC loaded with a 142gr AccuBond Long Range bullet holds its own against just about any .280 AI load. Reliable expansion down to 1,800 fps (more than 800 yards) and good weight retention should make this a winner. I plan on working up some loads using that bullet and hope that accuracy/precision are on par with Barnes or Hornady bullets.

 

[Corn-Picker]

All in all it's an interesting development. If MRC or Winchester offers a gun I'll probably buy it. If Kimber does, I might buy it.

According to Hornady, MRC does chamber in the 6.5 PRC, but it’s not listed on MRC’s website yet. I wouldn’t hold your breath for Winchester, they just started chambering for the 6.5 Creedmoor in 2018.

From https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/6.5-prc-147-gr-eld-match#!/:

Rifle makers currently chambering the 6.5 PRC include: Christensen Arms, Fierce Firearms, GA Precision, Gunwerks, Hill Country Rifles, Horizon Firearms, McRee Precision, Montana Rifles, PROOF Research, Savage Firearms, Sauer, Stuteville Precision, Seekins Precision and Trident Armory. Check back often as additional gun manufacturers confirm chambering the 6.5 PRC.

 

[old heeler]

You picked 6.5 PRC over 280AI for a reason and that's what you posted.

I figured that a .280 AI was in my future but now I don't think it is

 

[Jerry M]

So how does the 6.5 PRC compare to 6.5 Remington Magnum from what 1963?

 

[LoonWulf]

Capacity should be nearly identical, but again theres VERY little that hasnt already been done.
The 6.5PRC has a much better chance of success then that 6.5Rem Mag did, the shooting public has taken to the 6.5 way they never had till very recently.
The 6.5PRC is also a fat, short, non-belted, non-rebated, case. Which is sexy these days. Balistics are enough better than the 6.5CM, and the 6.5-284 from a short action to make it a.....justifiable....step up.

Honestly I tend to like playing with new cartridges, the short fat .22s dont interest me, and neither do the .277s, but pretty much everything else seems like fun. I dont expect to find anything that hasnt been done before tho, sometimes you will find something that does it in a way that works just a little better, or better from a particular platform.

 

[MCMXI]

So how does the 6.5 PRC compare to 6.5 Remington Magnum from what 1963?

As LoonWulf pointed out they're similar, but the shorter and fatter case of the 6.5 PRC might be more efficient. Also, with a COAL of 2.955" and the neck/shoulder junction set back .150" compared to the Rem Mag, this might allow the use of heavier, longer bullets in the 6.5 PRC. I've never had a problem with belted cartridges but some will see a benefit of not having to deal with it. The 6.5 Rem Mag has been dead for years despite many believing it to be a very good cartridge. It's a tough sell to bring such a cartridge back to life and a much easier sell to rework and rebadge a cartridge for a younger crowd who have never heard of the 6.5 Rem Mag.

I see that Nosler offers a 125gr factory load for the 6.5 Rem Mag and Remington supposedly offers a 120gr load but that's about it. Hornady is currently offering 143gr ELD-X and 147gr ELD Match loads. Once the PRC has more of a following I'm sure that there will be additional factory offerings in the 130gr to 150gr range. Eventually I could see Lapua offering brass for the PRC.

You picked 6.5 PRC over 280AI for a reason and that's what you posted.

I figured that a .280 AI was in my future but now I don't think it is

I was planning on buying a .280 AI rifle sometime this year or next year but the 6.5 PRC project fell into my lap, and if it weren't for that I doubt that it's something I would have pursued otherwise. Once I realized that the 6.5 PRC fits and feeds very well in the Kimber 8400 WSM, a rifle that I own and really like, it made sense to give it an honest effort. The point of my post is that after comparing the two cartridges I soon realized that there wouldn't be much point in buying a .280 AI given the similarity of the two cartridges. If Kimber ever offers the 6.5 PRC in an 8400 WSM rifle, consumers will have two equally good choices with two different actions. I have coworkers that own .280 AI rifles so it will be interesting to see how well they compare in a shoot off at 100 yards, 400 yards and 700 yards.

 

[FN in MT]

How FAR do You intend to shoot at game?

I can't recite the ballistic chart numbers, but I CAN give You some real world experience with the .280 Rem/.280 AI and 150/160 Nosler Partitions.
Killed probably close to a dozen mature elk with a std .280 and later on a .280AI. Closest 200 yds, farthest was 555. Throwing out the 555 shot as that was on a wounded bull...My average impact distance is still 350 yds or so on average.

All but one, were one shot kills. Had one bull stand there at 400 yds after the first shot, so I slipped two more into his lungs.

Shot some game in RSA with the .280 as well...again from Impala to Wildebeest...one shot kills.

I'm a fan of the 6.5's. Shoot a 6.5 x 47 Lapua for LR steel. So I'm hardly a 6.5 hater.

 

[MCMXI]

How FAR do You intend to shoot at game?

That's a fair question and I don't really have an answer at this point. There are two issues, the first being my confidence in making a good shot at X yards from a given field position, and the second being the ability of the bullet to do its intended job at X yards on whatever animal I'm shooting at. I don't know how this project is going to end up but hopefully I'll get a better idea of the best use (for me) of a 6.5 PRC hunting rifle by the time I'm done. I might end up putting the 300 WSM barrel back on .. who knows! However, if the 6.5 PRC ends up being a good 600 yard rifle for elk sized game with the right bullet/load combination then that would be ok I think. The AccuBond bullets should have good expansion down to 1800 fps, and at 600 yards the 142gr ABLR is moving at 2,235 fps and has close to 1,575 ft-lb of energy, and that's at sea level and not where I live/hunt at 3,000 ft to 5,000 ft elevation.

@FN in MT, what are your thoughts on 6.5mm bullets for hunting larger game?


AccuBond expansion velocities

 

[The Earl o Sammich]

Keep in mind you're comparing two projectiles that have a 10% difference in diameter, so you're not comparing apples to oranges. You're comparing kumquats to bananas.

Taking everything into consideration mass, and hence diameter, are what will make a bullet go further, faster, with more energy..... That's why we use 155mm projectiles in the artillery .... that go 20 miles with more energy.

 

[js8588]

However, if the 6.5 PRC ends up being a good 600 yard rifle for elk sized game with the right bullet/load combination then that would be ok I think. The AccuBond bullets should have good expansion down to 1800 fps, and at 600 yards the 142gr ABLR is moving at 2,235 fps and has close to 1,575 ft-lb of energy, and that's at sea level and not where I live/hunt at 3,000 ft to 5,000 ft elevation.

With the .719 ballistic coefficient, that accubond will be more than equal to the task.

 

[FN in MT]

I've found that once the range to that animal gets much past 400 yds...Expansion is the least of Your worries.

Being able to PLACE that bullet in the heart/lung area IS the issue. And at 600 yds....NOT me. I've seen far too many wounded animals found days later being eaten alive by magpies and coyotes. I am not a fan of LR hunting. ALL I will say on the matter.

Todays bullets are so good compared to when I started hunting. I think that any of the .264" hunting bullets in the 130-140 gr range on up, should work fine. NOT talking Match bullets or cheap cup and core...talking premium hunting bullets.

All You have to do is pop both lungs and get an exit hole.

 

[tarosean]

280AI is the one I am most interested in for "next"