Another Kimber project rifle

[LoonWulf]

Was this in the M18 that @troy fairweather got from you?

I'm very pleased with the precision at the moment... couldn't be happier in fact, but I would like to get some more speed with the 869 if I can. As the saying in Hawaii goes ... if can, can ... if no can, no can.

yup lol! gun took it fine, but the primer stayed in the gun when the case ejected. It was my starting charge too, and only like a grain or two over min, so just south of midway load.

Ya know I never did figure out what that saying meant.....but I use it, and I guess I'm using it right.

 

[troy fairweather]

The action on the m18 are built like a German tank, it's amazing the rifle doesn't weigh more. The use of polymer helps, plus there's no shoulder on the barrel and that saves some weight. The 6.5 prc is the heaviest m18 and it feels nice.

That not load was good test for the lug collar( need to find what mauser calls it. The thing feels hard as hell when I checked it with a file. The bolts good steel I though I found out what they use but forget.

 

[Nature Boy]

That thing is a laser

 

[MCMXI]

That thing is a laser

I wonder (worry) though if it's a laser at lower velocities only. There's no point in the 6.5 PRC unless it offers a significant velocity bump over the 6.5 CM. So far, it shoots the factory Hornady 147gr very well and shows potential with sub 2,800 fps 147gr reloads. I won't know how it shoots in the 2,900 fps to 3,000 fps range until I can get there. I'm thinking that H1000 is the way forward based on my previous experience. Looking at QuickLOAD, US 869 isn't an efficient powder for the 6.5 PRC with something like 10% of unburned powder exiting the muzzle compared to 1% with H1000. Reloading tables don't tell you that sort of thing. The other thing is why choose to use 10.0gr more powder for less velocity and probably more erosion to the barrel and suppressor? Sorry for my rambling ... just thinking out loud. And while I'm rambling, what the heck is up with the Hornady claim of 2,910 fps. I haven't got close to that with three different barrels now.

I'm tempted to do a quick H1000 velocity profile today before taking the barrels to Proof. It's an addiction don't you know.

 

[troy fairweather]

I think hornadys fps clam was with the original throat they used, but I've seen guns all over the place. Plus you have to figure for the barrel to speed up the 100-150 fps. Seen one guy getting 2850 with a 20" build with factory 147 them another with a 26" getting 2750 same ammo.

I like h1000 so far with the 140, I had a big node at 57.0 to 58.0 maybe a few tenths above and below. I think I was coming back into a good node above 59.0 but with the soft hornady brass I stopped. My barrel should have settled in so hope to do more test this year.

I did a few sighters with the 147 and some h4831sc and they looked promising considering I only had a few and was moving the turrets.

 

[MCMXI]

A big thing for me is temperature stability so US 869 is a good powder in that regard. I'm not done yet and will push on over the coming months. I'm going to squeeze a bit more 869 into a few cases to see where the max is for the 147gr, then clean the barrel, then do a velocity profile with some H1000, then take the barrels to Proof. I'll be back but overall I'm really, really pleased with this build.

 

[Nature Boy]

It's an addiction don't you know.

You don't say......

Regarding factory ammo, anytime I've run factory ammo across my chrono I've never had it meet the FPS claims on the box. I'm sure there's some marketing influences involved.

I'm also sure when you get the ingredients and quantities right you'll be able to find the higher node. I was in a similar quandary during the early stages of load development with my proof barreled .308. The most accurate loads were with lower charge weights and lighter bullets. It's only a gut feel so take this for what it's worth, but I believe my Proof barrel took a couple of hundred rounds before it settled in. It was finicky in the beginning, which is odd for a .308, but now it's fall off a log easy to tune across a broad spectrum of load combos.

 

[MCMXI]

Regarding factory ammo, anytime I've run factory ammo across my chrono I've never had it meet the FPS claims on the box. I'm sure there's some marketing influences involved.

I've found Federal ammunition to be close to the advertised MV in quite a few of my rifles but not much else.

I'm also sure when you get the ingredients and quantities right you'll be able to find the higher node. I was in a similar quandary during the early stages of load development with my proof barreled .308. The most accurate loads were with lower charge weights and lighter bullets. It's only a gut feel so take this for what it's worth, but I believe my Proof barrel took a couple of hundred rounds before it settled in. It was finicky in the beginning, which is odd for a .308, but now it's fall off a log easy to tune across a broad spectrum of load combos.

I was able to stuff 69.0gr, 70.0gr and 71.0gr of 869 into some cases and maintain the 2.965" COL that is the max to be sure that they'll fit in a variety of AICS magazines. The photo below shows 71.0gr in a case and the powder is up into the neck. This powder is so fine that it's hard to know if the load is compressed i.e. no snap, crackle & pop! Bullets are seating very smoothly, and as is normally the way I have to move the seater down a little as the charge gets compressed due to the greater resistance.

It will be interesting to see if this barrel changes over a couple of hundred rounds. Not a big deal for a .308 Win but possibly 10% of the barrel life for the 6.5 PRC.

QuickLOAD predictions:

69.0gr > 2,906 fps @ 59,314 psi
70.0gr > 2,962 fps @ 63,043 psi
71.0gr > 3,019 fps @ 67,066 psi

 

[Nature Boy]

I like your loading blocks

 

[MCMXI]

I like your loading blocks

You can blame @Walkalong for that! In fact, I blame both of you for many of my purchases! I blame this entire rifle build on your ridiculously cool FN custom, so feel free to send me a check any time to cover some of the cost.

I actually made a bit of an effort with these nine pieces of new brass. I deburred the case mouth inside and out and ran the cases through the sizer die. I even bothered to read Hornady's instruction sheet re sizing/seating in case I wasn't using the dies correctly.

 

[MCMXI]

Some more preliminary results. I just shot the nine 147gr loads and things are looking good. I was a bit "lazy" behind the rifle today but it just goes to show how easy this thing is to shoot.

The 69.0gr load was a continuation of the 68.0gr load so I'm fairly sure that 68.0gr and 69.0gr are out. 70.0gr looked good (first two shots were almost the same hole), and 71.0gr was decent too and velocity is very respectable. QuickLOAD was close on these. This wasn't meant to be a load development exercise, more of a "see what 869 will get me", but I would happily load up a bunch at 70.0gr, maybe 70.5gr. I think I'll play with primers once the barrels are back from Proof. I'm way off the lands at the moment so I'm not even going to bother playing with seating depth.

 

[LoonWulf]

That M18 was strikingly accurate right from the get go, but i noticed a jump in consistency when running 100% to slightly compressed. Didnt see much on 100yd targets but my velocity variance dropped noticeably.

 

[MCMXI]

That M18 was strikingly accurate right from the get go, but i noticed a jump in consistency when running 100% to slightly compressed. Didnt see much on 100yd targets but my velocity variance dropped noticeably.

Thanks. I'm not sure why I get such high ES numbers but I often appear to be in the "positive compensation" regime. None of the nine rounds shot resulted in heavy bolt lift but I looked at the primers to see if anything bad was going on. Here's a typical 71.0gr load primer. Nothing stands out.

 

[troy fairweather]

3000 with a 147 would be plenty, I'm surprised the us869 did that good but not many have tried it. Think one guy said rl23 did well in his, rl25-rl26 are obviously good as well.
I haven't noticed anything funky with the m18 yet, will see if I can get some other bullets and powder to mess with. I need to pick up a chronograph to.

 

[MCMXI]

3000 with a 147 would be plenty, I'm surprised the us869 did that good but not many have tried it.

I'd be happy with 2,950 fps with low ES numbers to be honest, and with a temperature stable powder such as 869.

I need to pick up a chronograph to.

PM me your address and I'll send you my CED M2 if you're interested. It's a good chronograph that I upgraded but I don't use it since getting a LabRadar a few years back. The LabRadar is just so easy to set up and I'm lazy.

 

[troy fairweather]

I'd be happy with 2,950 fps with low ES numbers to be honest, and with a temperature stable powder such as 869.



PM me your address and I'll send you my CED M2 if you're interested. It's a good chronograph that I upgraded but I don't use it since getting a LabRadar a few years back. The LabRadar is just so easy to set up and I'm lazy.

Ok cool,

I don't mind a higher es but I don't have the range to see much difference. The powder being temp stable is more important tho.

 

[MCMXI]

I still haven't taken the barrels to Proof so decided to do a quick primer test this morning. After going over the data above I settled on 69.5gr of US 869 and figured out that I can use my 300 WSM Redding Competition neck sizing die for the 6.5 PRC. I can use the Competition seater die too but the 147gr sticks a bit in the seater, I decided to neck size and trim some once fired brass and try Federal GM215M and CCI 250 primers. The CCI 250 primers offered more resistance when seating. Here are the two 5-shot groups. The ES for the Federal primers looks really good but I think there was a problem with the last CCI 250 load of the group. I didn't make a scope adjustment after the Federal group.

I think I have enough good results to see the potential in this build and now I need to wrap up a few things with the rifle and tighten up my handloads to get the ES numbers lower than they are. I like this load at 69.5gr and magnum primers. 2,950 fps is very respectable for a 24" barrel. I do need to check at least 0.3gr either side and maybe 0.5gr but the 70.0gr load looked good ... for three shots! I'll be warm and fuzzy if 69.0gr and 70.0gr will put five shots into 0.5 moa or a little over.

Federal GM215M (FPS)
2949, 2944, 2948, 2941, 2957

CCI 250 (FPS)
2938, 2946, 2947, 2947, 2911

 

[horsemen61]

I still haven't taken the barrels to Proof so decided to do a quick primer test this morning. After going over the data above I settled on 69.5gr of US 869 and figured out that I can use my 300 WSM Redding Competition neck sizing die for the 6.5 PRC. I can use the Competition seater die too but the 147gr sticks a bit in the seater, I decided to neck size and trim some once fired brass and try Federal GM215M and CCI 250 primers. The CCI 250 primers offered more resistance when seating. Here are the two 5-shot groups. The ES for the Federal primers looks really good but I think there was a problem with the last CCI 250 load of the group. I didn't make a scope adjustment after the Federal group.

I think I have enough good results to see the potential in this build and now I need to wrap up a few things with the rifle and tighten up my handloads to get the ES numbers lower than they are. I like this load at 69.5gr and magnum primers. 2,950 fps is very respectable for a 24" barrel. I do need to check at least 0.3gr either side and maybe 0.5gr but the 70.0gr load looked good ... for three shots! I'll be warm and fuzzy if 69.0gr and 70.0gr will put five shots into 0.5 moa or a little over.

Federal GM215M (FPS)
2949, 2944, 2948, 2941, 2957

CCI 250 (FPS)
2938, 2946, 2947, 2947, 2911

View attachment 969275

Awesome news I’m glad to see you having success with that cartridge!

 

[LoonWulf]

I still haven't taken the barrels to Proof so decided to do a quick primer test this morning. After going over the data above I settled on 69.5gr of US 869 and figured out that I can use my 300 WSM Redding Competition neck sizing die for the 6.5 PRC. I can use the Competition seater die too but the 147gr sticks a bit in the seater, I decided to neck size and trim some once fired brass and try Federal GM215M and CCI 250 primers. The CCI 250 primers offered more resistance when seating. Here are the two 5-shot groups. The ES for the Federal primers looks really good but I think there was a problem with the last CCI 250 load of the group. I didn't make a scope adjustment after the Federal group.

I think I have enough good results to see the potential in this build and now I need to wrap up a few things with the rifle and tighten up my handloads to get the ES numbers lower than they are. I like this load at 69.5gr and magnum primers. 2,950 fps is very respectable for a 24" barrel. I do need to check at least 0.3gr either side and maybe 0.5gr but the 70.0gr load looked good ... for three shots! I'll be warm and fuzzy if 69.0gr and 70.0gr will put five shots into 0.5 moa or a little over.

Federal GM215M (FPS)
2949, 2944, 2948, 2941, 2957

CCI 250 (FPS)
2938, 2946, 2947, 2947, 2911

View attachment 969275

Your starting to make the 6.5PRC interesting again! I sold my 6.5-284 to a coworker looking for a hunting rifle earlier this year..... a perfect excuse to get another 6.5......

 

[MCMXI]

Your starting to make the 6.5PRC interesting again! I sold my 6.5-284 to a coworker looking for a hunting rifle earlier this year..... a perfect excuse to get another 6.5......

It's a fun cartridge to play with and seems to be easy to load for. I'm pleased that the CCI 250s shoot well since I have 6,000 or so of them and don't use them for anything else at the moment. This rifle is enjoyable to shoot so I might shoot a bit today after I move some scopes around, then remove the barrel and drop both barrels off to Proof tomorrow.

 

[MCMXI]

Another update after shooting the rifle today, and at 500 yards for the first time. This rifle is so much fun to shoot and possibly one of the most fun I've ever owned. I wanted to see if it'd shoot factory Hornady 143gr ELD-X well since I have a hundred or so rounds to burn up that I "inherited" about three years ago during my earlier unsuccessful foray into the world of 6.5 PRC. Also, I swapped out the Nightforce for a Vortex Viper PST so wanted to see if my zero was close. I shot 10 rounds with the first group in the center. The last shot of that group went a little left but it felt good so not sure about that. I dialed down 0.1 milrad and shot the bottom left group ... not bad, but velocities however not so good.

2942, 2943, 2955, 2955, 2943, 2953, 2923, 2966, 2970, 2913 fps
Average: 2,946 fps
ES: 57 fps
SD: 17.7 fps



I put up a new 500 yard target recently so created a rifle profile in the Applied Ballistics app on my phone, created a load profile using 2,950 fps and the G7 BC, guessed the length, guessed the up angle to be about 3 degrees, dialed up 2.2 milrad and the first shot hit the steel 11.5"x11.5" plate just about perfect for elevation but 2-1/2" right of center. I shot five more rounds with all of them hitting the plate. I didn't see the shot next to the bolt when shooting so thought the group was close to 1/2 moa. The app told me to dial left 0.1 milrad for spin drift but I didn't mess with windage. Had I done that the group would have been about 2" left. When I walked up the hill to paint the target I realized that the results weren't quite what I thought they were. Regardless, I'm not disappointed with this rifle or even with this factory load, particularly given the velocity data above. This rifle is just plain fun to shoot. I'm not sure if it's the rifle/cartridge combination but it's really enjoyable and kind of easy to shoot fairly well. I'm looking forward to stretching it out to 700 yards and 1,000 yards with handloads.

I'm loving the 6.5 PRC this time around!

 

[LoonWulf]

Hell even with the outlier shots, those are nice groups!

 

[troy fairweather]

Yeah good groups, 2946 fps for the factory 143 is pretty good if I'm reading it right.

 

[MCMXI]

@troy fairweather, I'm not sure where you're seeing 2.946" but I agree that six shots at 500 yards under 1 moa is more than acceptable for a factory hunting load. As the target shows, the vertical dispersion is much larger than the horizontal dispersion so the crappy ES that showed up in the 10 shots on paper could be to blame. I have no doubt that a handload will result in much better results. I don't think I'll be hunting with this rifle but I'll probably work up a 142gr Nosler ABLR load because I have 500 or so of those bullets.

I've decided to stop handloading until the Redding type S match bushing neck die set shows up. I'm done using the Hornady two-die set that they sent me three years ago. The sizing die squeezes the neck down .015" or more only to open it back up 0.013" with the button which requires way more force than necessary and overworks the brass. If I'm to get into single digit ES numbers I need better dies.

 

[troy fairweather]

@troy fairweather, I'm not sure where you're seeing 2.946" but I agree that six shots at 500 yards under 1 moa is more than acceptable for a factory hunting load. As the target shows, the vertical dispersion is much larger than the horizontal dispersion so the crappy ES that showed up in the 10 shots on paper could be to blame. I have no doubt that a handload will result in much better results. I don't think I'll be hunting with this rifle but I'll probably work up a 142gr Nosler ABLR load because I have 500 or so of those bullets.

I've decided to stop handloading until the Redding type S match bushing neck die set shows up. I'm done using the Hornady two-die set that they sent me three years ago. The sizing die squeezes the neck down .015" or more only to open it back up 0.013" with the button which requires way more force than necessary and overworks the brass. If I'm to get into single digit ES numbers I need better dies.

2946 fps from factory 143 is good if I read your post right.

I'm interested in the 142 ablr and how that works out for you. I'm torn on bullets on one hand I want a nice high bc bullet, but then I not have anywhere really to shoot over 400 yards so the speers are really all I need.
Still want to try some monos, I see N.Y. Passing some law about no lead soon, really bullets are the only lead thing we can have here, no lead sinkers, wheel weights no lead roofing.