I wish every gun owner would take a CCW class!

[Sam1911]

I only pull my finger out of the guard while simultaneously moving and not shooting and/or reloading.

Just moving your finger from the trigger, to outside the trigger guard, back to the trigger will take more time than it takes to fire a double tap. If you have multiple targets close together it will take more time than it takes to transition between targets. I.e. you couldn't (or at least, I couldn't) do it between the last shot on one target and the first shot on the next, assuming a short transition at play.

No argument with that. I wasn't clear, or overstated the point. If you are transitioning between two targets that you would engage in the same string of shots, no you wouldn't have to come off the trigger.

My point was to say "finger discipline" is to be practiced at all times when you are not actively shooting.

 

[ny32182]

No problem Sam, I've seen you post elsewhere that you are a match director; I know that is a PITA with little reward, so... from a regular shooter, even though I don't shoot at your match... thanks for going to the trouble.

 

[shockwave]

The new 5th rule they are giving now is basically "maintain control of your weapon at all times". I don't remember exactly how it was worded. The idea is to be sure that your gun is always either in your possession, or in a place where some unauthorized person can't get it

Not a bad rule (although I bet most of us follow it already - I do). It fits in with the others, working toward the idea of preventing accidental shootings - like we saw with that poor guy who got shot in the knee with his own 9mm.

I really enjoyed my CCW class myself, and I'm really glad that everybody who takes one gets the message loud and clear: You are not being deputized as a LEO, and if you do use your gun, you may potentially be in a world of legal hurt so consider it a total last resort.

 

[bigalexe]

Hey that's a great idea... the government uses funds from those $200 taxes on building and transferring NFA weapons in order to finance free safety/ccw classes.

 

[azyogi]

I would join in with those that say everyone should, not that everyone must. I won't get my ccw because I don't feel that I should have to have a license to exercise a right. If the law passes that I can carry concealed, just the same as I can open, I'll get my CCW. Just because it makes buying easier. Till then I won't cede a right by being forced to buy a license to vote, write, or carry.

 

[mec]

a bunch of them had never shot a gun before, and had

I our area, there is no public land and one shooting range to serve a county of 150,000. There are about 4000 handgun licensees in the county and the club range has just closed membership at just over 1,000. Additionally, the range has limited availability for weekend shooters because of shooting contests that serve a few dozen members and non member participants. On holidays, the range is extremely crowded with one or two super enthusiasts usually taking up the "practical" range. The CHL qualification ranges in the area are private affairs that are not open for the license holders to practice. As a result, a very large number of our handgun carriers will not shoot again until they requalify. Initially this is after four years, then five years and after that the shooter is not required to requalify more than once in a ten year period.
When the chl law first passed, a couple of people opened ranges but lost interest when they found out how much trouble is involved in managing them.

 

[Hellbore]

Wow mec that is terrible.

However, where I live people have no excuse. There are lots of shooting ranges, and I have been to a few, and they are not too crowded. Usually you can get a lane without any waiting time.

My personal favorite right now is Caswells because it's close to where I live, you can rent a gun there OR on Tuesdays it is ladies night and ladies get FREE gun and lane rental! The only thing they pay for is ammo.

Not only that, but we are surrounded by beautiful desert areas no more than a maximum of 30 minutes drive from home, and in a lot of these areas shooting is allowed as long as you follow a few rules and clean up after yourself. There are also outdoor areas where people shoot and don't even clean up after themselves, for the lazier shooter (I am not agreeing with this practice, but it is done every day).

Anyone who lives here has lots of affordable or even free places where they could shoot if they wanted to.

In fact Arizona is a great place to live if you like any kind of outdoor activities, we have a lot of different types of outdoor fun at our disposal within a short drive!

 

[mec]

I'm glad it still that way for some people.

 

[Hellbore]

Oh I almost forgot, another funny thing from my CCW class that I almost forgot:

While we were watching some of the other shooters, my nephew pointed out that one lady who was particularly bad and ended up needing 3 retries to pass the shooting test, had actually landed a couple of shots on her neighbor's target

Pretty funny, after everyone fired 5 shots, his paper had 7 holes in it and hers had maybe 2 or 3...

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

This...

Out of the 50 or so in the class, a bunch of them had never shot a gun before, and had bought their first gun just for this class.

...probably explains this...

There was a range qualification test where we had to hit at least 7 out of 10 inside the larger box of a TQ15 silhouette target from 30 feet. ... but some people needed 2 or 3 retries before they could pass.

And this...

The thing that was really scary though was that a lot of people in the class did not get 100% on the written test, even after 8 hours of being taught what the laws are. I don't know if they didn't listen or what. The test was VERY easy. In fact, I am pretty sure I could have scored 100% on the test without even taking the class, because most of the questions were common sense.

...is likely yet more proof that common sense isn't always all that common. The Constitution, however, doesn't discriminate (nor does it require testing and licensing and the payment of fees before a right can be exercised in whole or in part). Senseless people get all the same rights as sensible ones, at least until they abuse them.

Speaking of senseless people, I suspect that's exactly what you noticed this:

One thing we learned that was completely new to me was taking your finger off the trigger after every single shot. Is this a standard safety rule in the shooting community?

To the first part: a catch-all safety precaution. To the second, nope. And this is odd.

...he commented on how many of us messed this rule up, and how worried it made him, and kind of tried to make us feel stupid for it.

Maybe he's worried about ADs and losing his job, but making his students feel stupid is poor teaching.

 

[mec]

One of the early things noticed about the fifty question test in Texas was that some people missed not the common sense give away questions but could miss every important question and still pass. The Dallas Morning News credited Massad Ayoob with noticing this and making the (adopted) suggestion that the instructors go back over every missed question and make sure the class hears the correct answer. Ayoob was one of a small group of recognized trainers solicited for comment by the DPS when they designed the program. There are a couple of potentially confusing questions on every version of the test. I have found that some people will make 98 percent and miss one of these questions and it is often because the Instructor has said something to confuse them. I know this because I am the instructor who confused them.

The standard procedure at the DPS Instructor Training sessions ist to insist that shooters in the ready mode, keep their trigger finger outside the trigger guard and deployed along the frame above it. That way, they can tell at a glance that all fingers are off the trigger. The phrase "finger off the trigger!" is frequently heard on CHL firing lines and often seemingly ignored until the instructor realizes that his super senior citizen applicant removed his hearing aid prior to putting on the muff/type hearing protectors. This may have been why a number of your classmates messed this up and it may be the instructor who should feel stupid for not making sure everybody heard the command.
The Texas shooting demo consists of fifty rounds fired at various (short) distances in different sequences. The "finger off the trigger-out of the guard" rule applies at the beginning of a sequence and at the end when the shooter returns to ready but does not apply when the drill calls for multiple shots.

At this year's instructor recertification, back at the class room, introduced one of the instructors as having plowed bullets into the wooden target holder about three feet below his target. He reminded us that we are accountable for every shot we loose and that instructors should be able to at least hit the silhouette from seven yards.

 

[makarovnik]

Certainly wouldn't hurt.

 

[General Tso]

Government involvement in the licensing of a right is the tip of a very dangerous wedge. Any time the state assumes the power to allow something; it also gains the power to prohibit it.

You would not want to be subjected to a background check, mandatory waiting period or state mandated Bible classes to make sure that you were not some kind of religious fanatic before being issued a license to attend church would you?

Can you see how dangerous this is?

Amen!

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

I, too, find that curious, since there seems to be at least one Supreme Court case already on the books that establishes a big no-no on licensing of rights, and cases in lesser courts, too. Of course I'm not a lawyer, so I expect there are lawyerly reasons why licenses for such things persist...

"No State shall convert a liberty into a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor."
--Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 US 105, US Supreme Court, [1943].

As stated by the Supreme Court of Illinois ... a person cannot be compelled "to purchase, through a license fee or a license tax, the privilege freely granted by the constitution." Blue Island v. Kozul, 379 Ill. 511, 519, 41 N.E.2d 515.

 

[SwampWolf]

Quote:
Government involvement in the licensing of a right is the tip of a very dangerous wedge. Any time the state assumes the power to allow something; it also gains the power to prohibit it.

You would not want to be subjected to a background check, mandatory waiting period or state mandated Bible classes to make sure that you were not some kind of religious fanatic before being issued a license to attend church would you?

Can you see how dangerous this is?

Amen!

I don't know how you "double" an amen or "plus" it, so I'll just add: Hallelujah!

 

[JohnBT]

"Till then I won't cede a right by being forced to buy a license to vote, write, or carry."

None of my grandparents had to have a driver's license way back when. They told me they weren't required to have them when they first started driving. They were born 1891 - 1893 fwiw.

Are you going to give up your license now that they are charging a fee for something that used to be free? Freedom of travel and all that, you know. It's a right.

John

P.S. - All in favor of mandatory parenting classes, raise your hands.

 

[Owen Sparks]

John said:

None of my grandparents had to have a driver's license way back when. They told me they weren't required to have them when they first started driving. They were born 1891 - 1893 fwiw.

Are you going to give up your license now that they are charging a fee for something that used to be free? Freedom of travel and all that, you know. It's a right.

Hold on John, you only need a license to drive on a GOVERNMENT road. This is a subtle but important distinction. You don’t need a license, tag, inspection sticker or even tail lights to drive around in your own pasture. You have a natural right to your life and therefore a natural right to protect it with the necessary tools. Government has no business licensing this right.

 

[SwampWolf]

Excellent point, Owen. To add, the Founding Fathers (yep, they had to arrive sooner or later ) didn't see the government granting any of the rights they enumerated; said rights being "...self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

Geez, I guess this is drifting a little off course from the op's topic. Sorry, I'll try to better control myself in the future.

 

[REAPER4206969]

For example, you can kill someone in self-defense and get off without criminal charges, but that doesn't mean the criminal's family won't take everything you own in a civil lawsuit. You need to know this is a possibility.

Arizona is a castle doctrine state, is it not?

 

[Sheldon J]

Caveat!!

While I fully agree every responsible gun owner should take some kind of a weapons class.... I have over the years since getting my CPL taken multiple advanced clases.... why? Because it just makes good sense to be as prepared as possible for when things go wrong. Can everyone afford these classes (I have paid as much as a K for one 3 day class) defiantly not so with that said...

Don't give the politicians any ideas, we have enough gun laws on the books now.

 

[Owen Sparks]

The problem with making classes mandatory is that the collective nature of government considers every gun owner as no better than the least common denominator. Therefore if some gun owners are incompetent, then ALL gun owners are treated as incompetents and required to prove themselves worthy before exercising a right.

Any time you are seen as part of a group, you are considered no better than the least member of that group.

 

[beatcop]

It IS a regulated right....there's no denying that. Forget the sharp edge, we're well past it.

It's the "least common denominator" that screws things up for the rest of the populace, get the fools trained up so we all don't have to suffer the consequences of legislating common sense.

 

[sonick808]

the class you described sounds like the one i took at Scottsdale Gun Club w/ Tim Forshey as the instructor (who BTW was amazing, a gun defense lawyer, judge, p/t deputy and IPSC marksman badass)

Sorry if I'm off-base, some of your key words sounded like we took the same class at the same place with the same guy (at different times)

 

[Hellbore]

Sorry, this class wasn't with Tim or at that location. Interesting that our classes were this similar though

 

[Hellbore]

Arizona is a castle doctrine state, is it not?

Sure, but that only helps you when you're at home.