ID these French police rifles

[lemaymiami]

Given some of the not so well thought out weapons that the French have saddled their military with years ago... whoever purchased those Rugers was a pretty smart dude.... I noted during the television coverage that only what appeared to be reserve type units of some kind carrying them.

I was a young boy living in France (Army brat) back in 1960 in Orleans when the last attempt to kill DeGaulle (by French Pied Noirs) occurred. When our Army school bus was stopped at a checkpoint and boarded by two military police with subguns in hand it made a lifetime's impression on me (I was all of 12 years old then). That particular incident (the attempt on DeGaulle's life) was the basis for the book Day of the Jackal...

Security forces in France have a world of trouble on their hands. My guess is that we'll be hearing more of this sort of stuff there in the future.

 

[mac66]

Those rifles were issued to reserves, riot control units, border patrol and prisons. As I noted earlier there are a number of variations in both full and semi auto. I think they are well suited for the purposes chosen.

 

[JFrame]

Huh. It says the French ordered the Mini-14 to avoid using guns that looked too militaristic. But it then says the Mini-14s are being replaced with the H&K G36. Guess they got over it!

Yeah -- I caught that also. I'm thinkin' the attitude evolved over time as military-style rifles became more "generic-looking" to the public (through massive exposure in movies, etc.).

.

 

[cluttonfred]

Hehe, I remember seeing Gendarmes with MAT-49 subguns and soldiers with FAMAS bugles in the airport when I first arrived in France on a study abroad in the 1980s, got my attention too.

 

[barnbwt]

Any Hotchkiss Universals spotted, yet?

TCB

 

[lemaymiami]

Since I've always held a strong interest in military history... if you looked at what they equipped their military with before WWII you'd see the worst designs imaginable -particularly in their machine guns.... Always a bright spot here or there but many, many designs that an ordinary soldier would certainly cuss about if his life were depending on them... I'm sure every military force world wide has had their share of gear that wasn't very good but the French have had a lot of bad designs historically...

 

[MIL-DOT]

.... but the French have had a lot of bad designs historically...

Yep, and the Japanese and Italians had their fair share,too.

 

[cluttonfred]

Since I've always held a strong interest in military history... if you looked at what they equipped their military with before WWII you'd see the worst designs imaginable -particularly in their machine guns.... Always a bright spot here or there but many, many designs that an ordinary soldier would certainly cuss about if his life were depending on them... I'm sure every military force world wide has had their share of gear that wasn't very good but the French have had a lot of bad designs historically...

I don't agree, lemaymiami. Since "Freedom Fries" and all the rest, bashing the French has become something of a national pastime, and French military and political leadership failed miserably before and during WWII, but I don't think you can lay the blame on their gun designers.

Like all of the Allies, the French were using a mishmash of leftover WWI (or earlier) weapons in the 1920s and 1930s, but by the eve of WWII they had plenty of good weapon designs on hand, they just had waited to long to start making them in quantity. The U.S. had it's own problems, too. Remember that some U.S. Marines in the Pacific and some U.S. Army non-riflemen in North Africa were issued M1917 Enfields because there weren't enough M1 Garands available. SMGs were in short supply until the M3 Grease Gun, and the G.I.s never did get a real, portable LMG that could sustain fire.

Among French weapons at the begining of WWII, the Bren-like Chatellerault mle 1924/29 is an excellent LMG though without a quick change barrel, the MAS-36 is a solid rifle, the MAS-38 is a decent SMG despite the weak cartridge, but the French just didn't have enough of any of them. Like so many soldiers throughout history, the French infantry were let down by the politicians who waited to long to spend the money and by the commanders who still thought they were fighting the last war, not by the quality of equipment available.

 

[Dinosaur1]

It seems I recall that mini 14's were issue to the Legion for awhile. Anybody else ever hear that? I heard rumor one time that a small batch of those with full auto select were sent by mistake to a gunstore. Never verified it tho.

 

[WVGunman]

I was a young boy living in France (Army brat) back in 1960 in Orleans when the last attempt to kill DeGaulle (by French Pied Noirs) occurred. ... That particular incident (the attempt on DeGaulle's life) was the basis for the book Day of the Jackal...

And a fantastic movie of the same name! (The original from 1973, not the stinker with Bruce Willis.)

 

[kBob]

I got all excited at this thread......on first glance I thought the French had dug out the MAC1949 .30 (7.5mm) carbine prototypes.

That was a roller locked .30 carbine that also had a carbine oiler slot in the stock. The I got excited that maybe Ruger HAD built the XGI and just not sold it here. Oh, well. just a limited edition Ruger Mini.

Hmmm. I can see how a drill and router might be used to make a spare Mini -14 stock ( some folks actually ditch their wood when they go plastic foldy thing) have a carbine oiler slot though the inclined groove in the side the sling is on might be more difficult. I wonder if the forward sling attachment is side mounted like on an M-1 Carbine? perhaps a sling point from Uncle Mikes for a Winchester 94 magazine tube might be mounted just forward of the gas block........

Might be an attention getter on the range and not a bad way to tote a Mini.

-kBob

 

[cluttonfred]

Nothing so exotic kBob, but I like where you are going with the Mini-14 relook. I wonder if it would be possible simply to order a French-spec stock from Ruger and, if so, if a U.S. spec semi-auto Mini-14 would fit?

 

[Jim Watson]

I have read that after the contract was fulfilled, the French licensed production and are making their own Minis. Kind of like their Service Six lookalike.

 

[kBob]

Yeah well I had the XGI thought as when I examined the two XGIs ( was told later there were only one or two others that got destruction tested) I was appalled that they had Ranch rifle sights on them, you know the Williams folding set up like on the barrel of the 10/22 but with a peep sight and on the receiver hump. I had suggested to Ruger's folks at that time that a more traditional set of tangent style sights forward of the receiver might be more welcome than the Ranch sights. Ruger would not answer whether the XGI would take M-14 mags......so I brought one in, it fit the rifle at least, though I had no dummy rounds to try function with. Some that have heard that story insist that my showing it used a hi cap military mag to the elder Ruger is what actually killed the gun. The techs tell me it was parts breakage and low round count life though.

I continue to prod Ruger now that the source of the name is gone in the hopes they might reserect the XGI idea, I generally receive a polite no-way.

Ruger tends to be a bit retentive when it comes to parts so asking for a stock on a discontinued French special order had not occurred to me.

-kBob

 

[mac66]

kbob,

I was at the Ruger factory in August. I asked their VP about the XGI as I remember the situation pretty well and saw one of the prototypes back in the day. They just couldn't make it work and said it wasn't worth the time and effort. They said they have no intention of resurrecting it in that AR type guns are the more popular these days. Their SR 762 sells pretty well.

In regards to the French stock. I've always thought the Mini 14 is what the M1 Carbine should have evolved into. If Ruger came out with a M1 Carbine type stock (or even a French type) on the Mini I think they would have a big hit particularly with all the attention the French rifles are getting. That French stock combines the look of a sporter stock with the look of the M1 Carbine. It is a very striking design.

 

[kBob]

Back in the 1960s some one ( I seem to think I saw in a Williams catalog) made a M-1 Carbine stock that was a mannlicher full length style that had checkering like those French Minis. ( I think some had the Flur d' lance motif) I liked the look of them but hated the idea of bubba-ing up a Carbine to have such. The sporter stocks did not have the oiler cutout though. They marketed a short I believe 4 round magazine for the Sporterized Carbines as well.......but most folks I knew that hunted white tail with them in Florida at the time just used 15 rounders. The few full blown mannlicherized Carbines I have seen have actually been from not bad to actually well done.....until I start thinking about the damage done to the original gun.

-kBob