if M-16's were legal again...

[HankB]

Some people wouldn't want the an FA version of the M16 - target shooters, for one; it's my understanding that the current three round burst trigger mechanism really can't be "tuned" for precision target work.

Don't know about "regular" FA triggers, but an awful lot of fans of America's favorite sporting rifle would still prefer precision over FA capability.

Still, if FA became available as they were pre-NFA '34, prices of many collector firearms WOULD fall substantially; not to the level of new production, but common variations of vintage arms that would still bring $10,000+ prices would be few and far between. (Consider USGI 1911s, "correct" M1 Garands, and German G33/40 Mausers; pricey compared to new production, but few bring $10k.) Even if only the '86 freeze were lifted, there would be significant downward price pressure on many FA guns.

 

[RiverPerson]

I never understood how people get their panties in an uproar and allege price gouging on non-essential items. It's called the free market, supply and demand, risks of investment, smart purchasing, etc.

I don't begrudge anyone that bought Apple stock in 1970 and made a fortune selling it in 2012 for a ga-zillion dollars. Nor do I hate anyone that bought a house at the lows and sold it at the highs for huge profits. Same concept applies to guns and ammo. If it was important to you 5 years ago, you would have bought it. Someone else took the gamble and it paid off.

The "price gouging" complainers just want stuff today at yesterday's prices. Or, a form of risk-free socialism. They sit on their cash, then expect when prices go up, they can have it for the pre-increased prices. That's totally unfair to the person that invested in the items and had them appreciate. It would be crazy and you'd be laughed at if you expect to buy Apple stock today at 1980 prices, or a house Bellevue Washington today for 1990 prices.

With few exceptions there is nothing unethical about making a profit, as long as it's not oppressive to human rights, denying someone of life-sustaining items, etc.

Machine guns are only stupidly priced due to unconstitutional government regulations.

The shortages and price increases of many firearms and ammunition after Sandy Hook was due to the threat of even more unconstitutional government regulation.

Not really free market.

 

[tarosean]

Thanks to the Hughes Amendment a market that was already pretty distorted became anything but free, which is the issue. That free market needs to be restored.

They are all a stroke of the pen away from being expensive scrap iron too...

 

[njl]

An AR trigger group isn't exactly hard to swap out. If they were legal, I'd own the parts to go either FA or burst...but due to the cost of ammo and drop in accuracy, I doubt I'd go more than semi-auto very often. I'm pretty sure the gun club doesn't allow FA (never been an issue for me)...so I'm not sure where I could go more than semi without getting into trouble anyway.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

An AR trigger group isn't exactly hard to swap out. If they were legal, I'd own the parts to go either FA or burst...

By law weapons that have full-auto versions must be machined so a full auto trigger group can't be installed.

 

[scythefwd]

wrong vern. There are drop in auto sears for low shelf AR's.. they're expensive.. but they do exist for normally milled AR's... A few companies do make high shelf lowers, but more than a few out there make low shelf so all you have to do is drop in a lightning link.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Didn't know that.

 

[Sol]

I could dream....

But the government (the people) only take (freedoms*) from the people, and don't give back to the people. Except themselves, the government (the people).

What the heck kind of circular stupid logic am I groping for?

Somethings not right in my math.

 

[mboylan]

An AR trigger group isn't exactly hard to swap out. If they were legal, I'd own the parts to go either FA or burst...but due to the cost of ammo and drop in accuracy, I doubt I'd go more than semi-auto very often. I'm pretty sure the gun club doesn't allow FA (never been an issue for me)...so I'm not sure where I could go more than semi without getting into trouble anyway.

Yeah. It doesn't work like that. AR-15 and M-16 receivers are quite different. It's more than just a third pin hole for the autosear. The interior dimensions of an M16 are wider in several spots than the AR-15 so the autosear can move freely. You would not need to swap the trigger group out. There is a spot on the selector switch for semi. In the military M16s are shot almost exclusively in semi, even in combat.

Three round burst uses a sprocket that negatively affects trigger pull. Normal full auto does not have the sprocket/cam. It just uses different trigger parts and an autosear.

 

[mboylan]

By law weapons that have full-auto versions must be machined so a full auto trigger group can't be installed.

Well the third hole is definitely illegal. It is not illegal to machine out an AR-15 receiver to M16 specs as long as you don't drill the hole.

There are drop in auto sears for low shelf receivers. There are also lightning links for SP1 bolt carrier groups. Both are conversion devices and take some tinkering to get working properly.

 

[njl]

Shows what I know about FA parts. Then again, if they were legal, a whole new lower doesn't even cost that much, so I'd still have one. AFAIK, my M1 carbines would be easy to convert, but I've never looked into it, and doubt we'll ever get things to swing that far back, so ultimately, it won't matter.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Even if it were legal, I couldn't afford to feed it or replace the burned out barrels.

 

[justice06rr]

There are drop in auto sears for low shelf AR's.. they're expensive.. but they do exist for normally milled AR's... A few companies do make high shelf lowers, but more than a few out there make low shelf so all you have to do is drop in a lightning link.

Yeah. It doesn't work like that. AR-15 and M-16 receivers are quite different. It's more than just a third pin hole for the autosear. The interior dimensions of an M16 are wider in several spots than the AR-15 so the autosear can move freely. You would not need to swap the trigger group out. There is a spot on the selector switch for semi. In the military M16s are shot almost exclusively in semi, even in combat.

Just a couple of notes to add. Low shelf lowers are the easiest to use, you can just drop in your NFA DIAS (drop in auto sear). But low-shelf AR receivers are considered normally milled--nothing special about them. Its the DIAS that makes the magic happen, not the receiver or the other parts (M16 bcg, trigger). Also there is no extra hole on the lower.

Watch this vid. You can forward to the 11minute mark to see how easily the DIAS drops into the lower with no extra hole needed.
https://youtu.be/jdR7rEuLrvE?t=10m50s



What you need to convert to Select Fire/FA is a Low-shelf receiver, FA/M16 Carrier, Select Fire trigger and safety--all of which are cheap and available.

Its the RDIAS that makes it cost $15K+...

Here's the inside of my Colt6920 lower next to a Spikes homebuilt M4 (low shelf). The Colt is not milled all the way like the Spikes.






Notice above that they even have the markings for Select fire. I use these lowers all the time for my M4 builds. They are available in many LGS in my area.

 

[mboylan]

Just a note. Registered DIAS are not $15K. They are up to $25K. There aren't even a thousand registered and it seems that there is more demand than product. A registered receiver (third hole, M16 autosear, widened interior) can be had for $15K, if it's a conversion and not an original M16.

Also note that it was extremely difficult in most places to get approval for a full-auto arm prior to 86. Trusts were not accepted until a court case about 15 years ago. Prior to that you were pretty much at the mercy of your CLEO. In the 70s and 80s, most would deny machine gun purchases. In the 90s, more and more started to wake up and allow more purchases.

 

[AR-15Nutt]

it seems you do not understand the purpose of full auto or three round burst.., they are not intended for "precision".

:banghead:

 

[Vern Humphrey]

it seems you do not understand the purpose of full auto or three round burst.., they are not intended for "precision".

But we do understand that only hits count.

You can rattle off a whole magazine, but if you don't get any hits, you stand a good chance of dying while switching magazines -- killed by the guy you missed.

 

[TwinReverb]

There's nothing moral or immoral about the market. It's supply and demand.

Now intentionally taking advantage of someone because you can get away with it, that's immoral. But price inflation due to a volatile market, i don't think that is.

Really, it's what you can sleep with at night, assuming you have a conscience left. Just a general statement: there are plenty of people out there who've ignored their conscience so long that they, in effect, have none.

But over the price of .22LR, not unless you're selling it for like twice the online price. People are so quick to cry over ammo prices, yet too lazy to use the Internet. I think online ammo sales go a long way towards equalizing the price of local gun stores.

And there's always Walmart.

But your example, in my opinion, is very valid.

 

[ChCx2744]

The increased price is ridiculous is what it is. All it would take to make a semi-auto AR into a fully-auto is a tool to put notches in the hammer, safety roll pin, drill a couple holes into the receiver, the sear/latch that catches the hammer (Which I guess is what people refer to as the actual auto sear) and a spring to hold the latch in place. All in all, about a $50 at most modification, if done yourself.

The way the laws are set up make it ridiculous for that price point. I'd rather just stick with my semi-auto and be done with it.

 

[grter]

I could not care less about using it's full auto capabilities which would be a waste of ammo in anything but the most exclusive situations.

I would finally be able to purchase full mil spec quality surplus ARs made the way they are supposed to be made and not worry about cheap crappy civilian add on parts and function crippling modifications to appease ingnorant beaurocrats messing up the function of the platform.

Good high quality military surplus would finally be affordable.

 

[Panzerschwein]

You know it's been said that by an average user, a fully-automatic only rifle would be LESS effective than a semi-auto only that was used by an expert. Novices with full auto tend to make a lot of noise and score very few hits.

As to if select fire ARs were legal, I think that the price would initially be high and then once everyone catches up with demand the price will come down to were normal semi-auto only civillian AR prices are now. I'd imagine there would be a big run on ARs if manufacturers could suddenly start selling select fire versions, because many would buy it as soon as they could knowing well the government might ban them quickly and redact their decision.

 

[NY'er]

All I can say for sure if they suddenly became widely available and inexpensive is that A) I'd own at least one; and B) my full auto would constitute exactly the same 0% odds of being a threat to any living creature that wasn't already trying to kill me or mine.

Zero Percent risk to the law-abiding public

 

[Sam1911]

I would finally be able to purchase full mil spec quality surplus ARs made the way they are supposed to be made and not worry about cheap crappy civilian add on parts and function crippling modifications to appease ingnorant beaurocrats messing up the function of the platform.

grter,

You're maybe overstating this to make a point, I don't know, but you don't much have to worry about getting a second-rate product when you buy a semi-auto AR from any of many quality makers. For not a heck of a lot of cash you can have a fire-control system so sweet a GI with his military-issued M-4 would drool with jealousy. Full-auto does one thing well, and it's a good thing to have every once in a while, but claiming (or believing) that "civilian" style ARs are not every bit as superb a rifle is just false.

 

[AR-15Nutt]

VH, said "But we do understand that only hits count."

well i'll be danged, i never heard that before !!

you apparently never seen any of my 3 rnd. burst groups at 30 yds., 100 yds they will still all be in a mans torso. OK ?

thank you for that valuable info that only hits count.., i never knew that. ...

 

[grter]

grter,

You're maybe overstating this to make a point, I don't know, but you don't much have to worry about getting a second-rate product when you buy a semi-auto AR from any of many quality makers. For not a heck of a lot of cash you can have a fire-control system so sweet a GI with his military-issued M-4 would drool with jealousy. Full-auto does one thing well, and it's a good thing to have every once in a while, but claiming (or believing) that "civilian" style ARs are not every bit as superb a rifle is just false.

Yes you are probably right and I was overstating but there are a few ARs out there that are advertised as having quality way out of proportion to what they really are.

 

[Sav .250]

Would-a. Could-a. Should-a. Move on or get run over.