If Private Sales Banned- Where do dealers stand?

[Redlg155]

The connection is that just because you are a dealer, it does not make you pro gun. No more than a private citizen that owns a gun is pro gun. (I use the term pro gun loosely to mean those who would not support ANY new ban)

Lets face it, there are dealers and private gun owners that don't agree that we should have AR type rifles.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I still don't see the "those guns" comment as anything negative.

I for one specifically do not nor ever will deal in Glocks. I recognize the cutting edge nature of the design, I appreciate the simplicity, durability and reliability of the gun. I totally understand others interest in and sometimes devotion to the marque but I can probably be quoted as having said something very similar to "we don't deal with "those" kinds of guns" myself. It's just a design I don't care to get into not unlike semi-auto shotguns or say Tec-9/Mini Uzi style items.

As far as ARs, I love 'em, have been a manufacturer and wholesaler, have more than a dozen still and yet completely get it when other firearms enthusiasts look askance at them. Don't like 'em? I'm cool with that as long as you don't succumb to the "divide and conquer" tactics of the antis.

In short, there're all sorts of firearms, ammunition and accessories I won't have anything to do with but don't stand agains their sale or ownership - just not gonna get 'em from me.

 

[spanishjames]

Quote:
How do you propose to stop a sale between myself and an friend?

No one can stop you. But it could become illegal to do so. If the "Gun Show Loophole" is ever closed, you'd have to use an FFL to sell a gun to your friend. If you don't use an FFL, and the State investigates your friend for whatever reason, (e.g., where/when he got his gun after a justified shooting) you'd be in trouble.

Spanish
It is illegal to speed but most of us do it now and again, especially on the interstate.
It is illegal to drink and drive, but most have had a drink in a restaurant and then drove.
Most of break laws everyday, even if only in some small way.
Criminals do not obey laws, neither do Patriots obey laws from a tyranny

Your choice, you decide

We're actually in agreement ONEOUNCELOAD, I didn't say a new law would stop any one from doing something. I basically said that what is legal to do now (private transfer) could become illegal in the future. Since most law-abiding gun owners don't want to become criminals, they'd end up using an FFL to do a transfer.

If we don't want private transfers banned, then we have to let our representatives know that.

 

[Bubbles]

There are plenty of people out there now who don't know that transferring a firearm across state lines without going an FFL is a federal felony. I don't see them getting prosecuted for it, absent some other triggering offense.

Personally I don't want to see private intrastate sales forced to go through an FFL. I'm in business primarily to build custom firearms, perform gunsmithing services, etc. not to push government paper.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Just curious as to how many dealers would take a stand against banning private sales? As I see it,dealers would profit by being able to charge gun owners a "Transfer" and background check fee.

I am an FFL.

I am opposed to the ban on private sales, on several levels, despite the fact that it would no doubt fatten my wallet.

1) It will do nothing to solve any "problem".
2) What "private property" will be banned from being sold next?
3) Will turn lots of ordinary otherwise law abiding citizens into criminals
4) Will completely crash the NICS system which is unable to deal with the volume of traffic it has NOW.

 

[Bubba613]

I am on record as opposing banning private sales. I dont even know how you could enforce it without gun registration as well. I'd consider it a hassle and the money isn't worth the loss of freedom overall.
I am in favor of banning private sales at "sanctioned events", i.e. gun shows. Mainly because of the guys who show up week after week with a new table full of "personal" guns. They are unlicensed dealers and need to go.

 

[Isaac-1]

Let the current system deal with those that show up as private sellers week after week, let the BATFE invesgate and show they were acting as a business, but don't ban the guys walking around the gun show with 2 or 3 guns they are trying to sell, or people posting online classified ads on state/regional gun boards.

 

[Bubba613]

The current system is inadequate to deal with this problem. I dont care about guys advertising on the internet and the like.

 

[caribou]

Dealers fees on a mandatory gun sales is akin to Voteing Tax's "Poll tax's" I think they were called.....pay to excersize yer rights.

Build yer own.

 

[Ignition Override]

Kramer Krazy:
It always seemed like a good idea to buy milsurps FTF, as only one gun shop in our area sells them. There are too few choices and premium prices. Yes, yes, overhead.....

My impression is that lots of AR/AK/Vz-58 owners now wish that they had bought their semi-auto rifles in a manner which is totally confidential, and leaves No govt. records.
The SKS behind McDonalds left nothing behind except car exhaust, and a thinner wallet.

 

[smalls]

I am in favor of banning private sales at "sanctioned events", i.e. gun shows. Mainly because of the guys who show up week after week with a new table full of "personal" guns. They are unlicensed dealers and need to go.

Another perfect example of the need to enforce the laws we already have instead of creating new laws.

 

[Bubba613]

The laws we already have are inadequate to deal with this problem.

 

[rule303]

I am a dealer, I have no problem with legal private sales. I see transfers as a convenience to my customers. I charge $20 for transfers, and they are not a money maker. If current laws were actually enforced, there would be no "gun show loophole" problem. Sellers at gun shows with tables full of "private sale, no paperwork" guns at 20 to 30% markup over legitimate dealers are already breaking the law by engaging in the business without an FFL. If the existing laws are not being enforced, more laws are not going to rectify the problem.

 

[JohnBT]

"It is illegal to drink and drive, but most have had a drink in a restaurant and then drove."

It's not unlawful to drink and then drive here, not if you stay under the published limit. That's why they use a breath or blood test. Fwiw, not too many years ago it was legal to drink alcohol WHILE you drove if you weren't 'impaired'. It wasn't until the '90s that we got to the point where the .08 standard went nationwide.

On the subject of dealers and transfers, I can certainly understand why a busy dealer doesn't want to be bothered by transfers and sets a high price to discourage them. The staff person doing the transfer could be selling a gun instead and some shops want to concentrate on sales. For example, a local shop - Green Top - sold over 18k firearms in 2011. I wonder what the 2012 total will be.

I was in there Thursday and they still had guns and the buyers were elbow to elbow around the handgun counters and the counters they have for doing the paperwork. (I like the new location in the former Gander Mountain building, there's plenty of aisle space compared to the old joint and a larger parking lot.) And I can't believe they still had a pair of Topsiders in an 11M.

 

[X-Rap]

I am a pure capitalist but I fear that having the gov mandate all transfers will create the kind of monopoly that closing the gunshow loop hole in Colorado has created. To me a transer fee of even $20-30 dollars is an unwanted expense but I see no reason that an FFL should do it for free with someone elses merchandise. I buy most all of my guns through FFL's directly with 4473 fees included or FTF with no fee at all. I don't like the idea of a third party being thrown into private sales.

 

[mister_murphy]

If private sales are banned, I think dealers would see a small uptick in transfers, but nothing huge, as many would still be selling firearms albeit illegally in a private format, and then it gets in to muddy water to prove the who, what, when of the issue, and once its figured out, its get someone to prosecute it. Good luck with that!

 

[mgkdrgn]

Another perfect example of the need to enforce the laws we already have instead of creating new laws.

+1 on that bruther

 

[WCraven]

Some guns are made without serial numbers from the factory , so how do you track that?

 

[mgkdrgn]

The laws we already have are inadequate to deal with this problem.

Nooo, the -laws- are perfectly adequate, if not more than adequate. What is -lacking- is enforcement.

More laws, if they are enforced no better than the existing laws, will do NOTHING to resolve anything, and simply create more criminals out of otherwise law abiding citizens. Like our courts and jails are not full enough already.

Can you think of any other item, that you can legally own, that you can be arrested for selling to another law abiding citizen?

 

[jbj]

California banned private sales years ago. All transfers must go thru a FFL. The mandate capped transfer fees to keep dealers from gouging and to built trust into the system (so private parties don't think they're being taken advantage of). Dealers don't like it as they don't make money from it, but most are pretty easy going with it these days. Heck, make it easy and you'll have a new customer.

 

[Bubba613]

Nooo, the -laws- are perfectly adequate, if not more than adequate. What is -lacking- is enforcement.

More laws, if they are enforced no better than the existing laws, will do NOTHING to resolve anything, and simply create more criminals out of otherwise law abiding citizens. Like our courts and jails are not full enough already.

Can you think of any other item, that you can legally own, that you can be arrested for selling to another law abiding citizen?

The definition of dealer "Engaged in the business with the intent of making a profit" is too vague and lets people set up as unlicensed dealers at gun shows. That is a problem. The law is not sufficient as currently written to cover this problem. Period.
As for another product you can be prosecuted for, how about Oxycodone?

 

[GEM]

Quite a few years ago, some local gun stores took out an ad in the San Antonio paper denouncing gun shows. Clearly a business move by some stores that had very high prices that went along with their snooty, snotty, elitist attitudes.

Didn't go anywhere. Never go near the main store of that drive.

 

[theautobahn]

I'd guess that most of us would rather be required to use a FFL than have a required gun license. I know that's be my preference.

I don't want ANY additional restrictions on private sales. That being said, given the choice, I'd rather have to get a one time license that I would have to present when doing a private purchase (or check when making a private sale). Or, they could open NICS up for anyone to call in with someone else's driver's license (but not require us to keep the paperwork for 20 years).

 

[MachIVshooter]

I don't see how this would be enforceable.

How do you prove someone didn't have a gun before they mandated FFL transfers.

Well, obviously if the firearm was manufactured or first transferred after the effective date, it wasn't a lawful sale under this law.

Moreover, if private sales were banned, doing so would be the same as any other illicit trade. It would still happen on a large scale, but there would be risks.

It's possible that this law could make it through the house, though more likely would simply be the requirement of record keeping on private transactions. Most of us already do this anyway, though.

 

[blarby]

I can see some LGS's setting some new hours aside, or perhaps a dedicated employee to deal with the FTF stuff like they have in CA.

Correct me if i'm wrong, FFL guys.... but if you had an employee dedicating to doing that PW, instead of sales, at "x" dollars per hour.... couldn't you set your fee appropriately to make that profitable ?

Obviously, every shop would be a little different.... but i'm sure you savvy business types could find a way... and it might be a way to get some new blood in the door and teach 'em the ropes of your business- building an employee, yes ?