If you are a member of a police assoc. or org. you've probably been sold out

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Not a cop, sorry...but if you really believe that they'll ignore illegal orders from on high, I refer you to New Orleans in the days following Katrina.

Would you sacrifice your career, your hard-earned pension, and toss your family's future under the bus over a stranger's guns?

Didn't think so.

Two or three out of a hundred might refuse to follow that order. The rest will go through the door.
I already have a retirement and my family is secure whether I continue to be a police officer or choose a different route. I wasn't in New Orleans following Katrina so I can't comment on that. All I know is I have the right to refuse any order that isn't lawful, I can be fired, and then I can sue and win for it. That is my only protection. What was supposed to have happened in New Orleans? Not that anything you say will shock me. For every 100+ decent honest run departments you will always have that one roque agency or agency with a few that get out of control. Everyone wants to beat to death the one or two bad examples they can find but ignore the thousands of daily examples of those wearing a badge making things better, saving lives, and yes even standing up for everyones rights.
 
This thread does feel something like a cop bash. It's a bit ridiculous to assume that most cops are anti-gun, though I suppose it isn't fair to say that they're all pro-gun, either.

Police officers represent a reasonable cross-section of our society. Some are highly educated, some have GEDs. Some are nice guys, some are A-holes. Some work harder than you could imagine, some hardly work at all (it would seem). Some like guns, some hate guns. Most are ethical and do what they are supposed to do, a few screw up either because of the fact that they are a bad apple, or simply made a mistake. As we all know, the screw-ups get the attention.

I'm a cop. You guys can decide for yourselves whether you think I'm pro-gun or not. I have well over 1,000 posts on this forum that you can dissect all you want, if you need help deciding where I stand. I also know that three or four guys from my agency (that I'm aware of) also post on here, though I won't be the one to identify who they are.

Would cops go door-to-door collecting guns if they were banned tomorrow? I sincerely doubt it. We don't even do that for drugs now, and how many decades have they been illegal? Frankly, I doubt that the feared door-to-door gun grabs would ever happen at all. It would take a HUGE shift in the way we do things in this country before such an event would/could happen, and I doubt most of today's law enforcement officers would still be in their positions if it came to that. I know I wouldn't be, and the same can be said for many (but not all) of my coworkers.

I do believe that the 2nd Amendment was written to keep our government in check, and to keep the power with the people. I'm not ruling out the idea that something like this could happen, if our government started a power grab against the citizens, and changed from its current form. But, it's not going to happen right now, and it's not going to happen unless our government restructures itself greatly from the way it is operating today.

By the way, I consider the New Orleans example to be a poor one. First, that department already had an established reputation for corruption. They didn't hire good officers, and they didn't screen them well. Frankly, how could they? New Orleans was paying just over minimum wage at the time that Katrina happened. I can tell you right now that I wouldn't be doing this job for those wages! It's hard to attract good applicants when you don't entice them to the position with favorable salary/benefits, and when you rule out the possibility of hiring the best candidates, you sometimes end up stuck with undesirable candidates.

I recently had lunch with a New Orleans Commander, following a funeral that they attended for a fallen officer here in Colorado. They spoke about the corruption and problems they had in New Orleans, and I believe that many of these problems have already been addressed.

Anyway, the long and short of this post is that I don't think you guys should look at law enforcement as an enemy of gun rights. And, I also don't think you should look at associations for Chief's of Police as the best organizations to speak for the line officers. I'm a grunt, and I'm also not a member of any one of those organizations.
 
If my memory serves me right, A LT.CMDR. Cunningham did a poll on a gun grab by the U.S. Military. I believe he was doing a college paper on gun confiscation by the military. I believe just a few groups from each branch of the service were given the test! The Army, USAF, &Navy all came out about the same, about 15-20% stated they WOULD Go along with a gun confiscation . The USMC was the highest with I believe about 35-40% saying they would Go Along with those orders! This was not done by the military! It was done with their consent though. The military tryed to hush it up but some of the test papers got out &the paper was published. I have no idea what those figures are now, but it would be interresting to know! Admiral I.Yamamoto said if the Japanese army invaded the U.S.,durning WW2 that they would find an American with a gun behind every blade of grass! I don't think the Brady bunch has that many people to acomplish the job!
 
By the way, I consider the New Orleans example to be a poor one. First, that department already had an established reputation for corruption. They didn't hire good officers, and they didn't screen them well. Frankly, how could they? New Orleans was paying just over minimum wage at the time that Katrina happened. I can tell you right now that I wouldn't be doing this job for those wages! It's hard to attract good applicants when you don't entice them to the position with favorable salary/benefits, and when you rule out the possibility of hiring the best candidates, you sometimes end up stuck with undesirable candidates.
So then what you're saying is that we can expect door to door confiscation orders to be followed in:

  • New Orleans
  • Chicago
  • Philadelphia

How many others? Nobody knows.

I recently had lunch with a New Orleans Commander, following a funeral that they attended for a fallen officer here in Colorado. They spoke about the corruption and problems they had in New Orleans, and I believe that many of these problems have already been addressed.
And for what, the THIRD time, or is it the fourth... or tenth?

Apparently you missed the part where the "problem" (among others) of cops hiring hitmen to kill citizens who filed brutality complaints was "addressed". That was BEFORE Katrina.

NOPD was recently put under Federal supervision. That doesn't happen where "problems" are "already addressed". The NOPD has a PROFOUNDLY corrupt organizational culture going back decades, from graft, to theft, to first degree murder. It's not something you can just dismiss with a wave of the hand and very clearly it HASN'T been "addressed".
 
Gunnut, Yes this is what I was speaking of! ( Thanks for the link! ).I read the articles in SOF when they published them. (May still have org. SOF Magazines,will look ).If I remember right the writer (Pate) published figures for whole test. I may be wrong about that! Memory not what used to be. I was not sure how old article was &was hoping someone had (+1for G.N.). This shows we do have to worry about our government & what they are up to! I hope that everyone reads that link you provided. Even now this is a wake-up! Thanks again.All of us need to look into joining oathkeepers, Check them out!
 
Gunnut, Yes this is what I was speaking of! ( Thanks for the link! ).I read the articles in SOF when they published them. (May still have org. SOF Magazines,will look ).If I remember right the writer (Pate) published figures for whole test. I may be wrong about that! Memory not what used to be. I was not sure how old article was &was hoping someone had (+1for G.N.). This shows we do have to worry about our government & what they are up to! I hope that everyone reads that link you provided. Even now this is a wake-up! Thanks again.All of us need to look into joining oathkeepers, Check them out!
I am planning on joining Oath Keepers. The NRA doesn't represent me. I feel that the rights of citizens are too restricted when it comes to gun ownership. Yes I am a police officer. Not a thug, not a murderer, not a criminal. I am one of many that is trying to make our communities safer and make the world a better place for my own child. I am also concerned about the rights of all citizens. Corrupt agencies can and do happen. Instead of using them as examples to feed the paranoia of some about gun grabs door to door perhaps we should be more concerned about why it takes so long to bring corrupt agencies to justice. Perhaps the fact that we often pay ANYONE more than those expected to instantly put their life on the line at any given moment points to part of the problem. I don't know. I think the example of door to door drug sweeps is a good example though of why gun grabs won't happen anytime soon.
 
BTW,,,have you ever heard of a group called the Oathkeepers? Look it up, there are more of us than you think.
I'd be more worried of the military coming door to door before the police.Military people are polled on this question more frequently than you know.

PBR streetgang, got it right.

Im a retired Leo and I stongly suggest you look into Oath Keepers
 
Man with no name, If I understand you right you are saying that the main problem is within the top of bad Dept.s which make it hard for honest P.O.s to work in those Dept.s. If that is what you are saying I would agree with most of that. Police are like all groups, they have good & bad people in that group. When I spoke with the FBI last year about civil rights violations, I was told the police broke the law but nothing would be done as they work with them! (On what? ) . When we have this from the number one L.E.agency in the country what can we expect? I am glad there are some good PO.s out there looking out for us! Its just so few are left they are hard to see because of the bad that is done. Glad I am not in you're shoes! Good luck! And yes I agree that the oath-keepers represent my beliefs alot better than most.
 
"Deanimator" said:
So then what you're saying is that we can expect door to door confiscation orders to be followed in:

New Orleans
Chicago
Philadelphia
Deliberate obfuscation, which is what I've come to expect from you, Deanimator (or should I say, "Temma?").

ColoradoKevin speaks for most of us. Well stated, brother.

As far as Krupparms: did you actually read the link to the article about that survey by LCDR Cunningham? Of course, I did only twenty-plus years of active duty before I transitioned into law enforcement, so perhaps I'm not qualified to comment ... I will anyway, though: Do you folks really believe that most American cops and military personnel would go door-to-door to confiscate the firearms of our American citizens? If you truly want to believe this, I feel rather sorry for you.
 
Yes! I read the link & the articles that came out when the survey was done! I do believe that the current government we have is hostile to us &our guns! That being said, did you read my other post? I tend to believe ADM. Yamamoto about an American behind every blade of grass. I do believe the MILITIA WILL also be a problem for anyone who tries to steal the citizens firearms. Actually I was sound asleep when I write anything here? No I don't think the police or military could do it! If you feel that this is cop bashing then you are missing the bigger picture! This is about what's right and what's wrong! It's that simple!
 
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Almost all of the organizations listed involve words like Chiefs, Administrators, Executives, or Command in their titles. These are separate from the associations that guys who respond to 911 calls are members of.

Would you sacrifice your career, your hard-earned pension, and toss your family's future under the bus over a stranger's guns?

I did it over a rights issue I care a lot less about than firearms, so yes.
 
I am not questioning you so please do not take it that way, but do you care to elaborate on that?

Long story, and the following explanation is extremely simplified, but:

After 9/11 and the creation of DHS, we got legal instructions that if we made a probable cause arrest of a person who was originally from a certain small list of countries, we had to spend about 4 hours notifying agencies, making phone calls, and filling out additional paperwork. This 4 hour system wasn't a burden on the arrested person, since they were already being held legally.

For example, pretend England was on the list of countries (they weren't.) If I arrested a Canadian citizen for drug smuggling, and he told me he was originally from England, I had to start making phone calls while the Canadian of British birth sat in a holding cell.

Someone high up in the chain of command misread the orders, so when we had a consensual encounter (not an arrest) with someone originally from one of those countries, they wanted us to detain the person while making the phone calls. As we had no reasonable suspicion to detain, this was an illegal 4 hour detention.

I attempted to bring this issue up the chain of command, and I ended up resigning over it because no one would listen. I had several exit interviews, and apparently when you resign it is easier to be heard, because after every exit interview I got sent to the next higher supervisor to tell them why I was resigning.

The issue was corrected about 3 days after I left.
 
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