If you had to do it all over again
- Thread starter MidRoad
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I'm only passing on what the owners of the presses told me. One friend has a Dillon 650 dedicated for each of his three pistol calibers and one for .223 (four presses; he shoots competitively). He said it was too much hassle to switch over to another cartridge and just bought more presses. I have seen that at several friends'/acquaintances' reloading benches and been told the same. The LNL I was just looking at the other day and the friend who owns it was explaining the hassle it was to change primer sizes. I have no idea why their experience is so much different than yours. They are very experienced reloaders so I respect their opinion. I would advise a person looking into presses to try to get hands on experience with any type of press they are considering so they see first hand what is involved in set up, operation and maintenance/tweaking. A lot depends on the amount of rounds you plan to reload and how much experimenting you plan to do; not just concerning the press but the type of powder scale, measure and case prep tools.
rjbmjb
Member
I started with the RCBS Rockchucker kit, and 7 years later I don’t use much of what came with it. If I had to do it over again, I would have bought a turret press, my Lyman powder dispenser and the rest of the tools separately. The good thing about kits (for new reloaders) is that they have almost everything you need to reload and you can get started quickly.
I also would have bought a chronograph sooner- I have used mine for about a year now and find it is really useful in developing loads (and just plain fun to play with).
My loading logs are pretty sparse- I wish I kept more detailed notes on the loads and why I tried different powder, bullets, etc. I load for over 50 rifles, pistols and shotguns. I often go several years without shooting/reloading for a specific gun, and better notes would save time for the rounds that I don’t load often.
When I retired almost two years ago, I remodeled my 20x20 loading room in the basement- I now have benches that hold four presses and dedicate casting and gun cleaning areas, along with cabinets to hold tools and supplies. Being organized makes the hobby more enjoyable for me (I don’t have to hunt for things anymore), so I would have done this earlier.
The practical side of me says I never should have bought my 12 and 20 gauge pressses- the rounds I make cost more than target loads bought locally. Fortunately, I don’t shoot my shotguns a lot, so I keep my losses to a minimum.
Since I abandoned my original intention to save money by reloading, I no longer fret about buying dies for guns that I don’t shoot frequently. For example, I reload the rounds for my Nagant revolver, and it doesn’t bother me that the payback is about 40 years based on the volume I shoot.
I also would have bought a chronograph sooner- I have used mine for about a year now and find it is really useful in developing loads (and just plain fun to play with).
My loading logs are pretty sparse- I wish I kept more detailed notes on the loads and why I tried different powder, bullets, etc. I load for over 50 rifles, pistols and shotguns. I often go several years without shooting/reloading for a specific gun, and better notes would save time for the rounds that I don’t load often.
When I retired almost two years ago, I remodeled my 20x20 loading room in the basement- I now have benches that hold four presses and dedicate casting and gun cleaning areas, along with cabinets to hold tools and supplies. Being organized makes the hobby more enjoyable for me (I don’t have to hunt for things anymore), so I would have done this earlier.
The practical side of me says I never should have bought my 12 and 20 gauge pressses- the rounds I make cost more than target loads bought locally. Fortunately, I don’t shoot my shotguns a lot, so I keep my losses to a minimum.
Since I abandoned my original intention to save money by reloading, I no longer fret about buying dies for guns that I don’t shoot frequently. For example, I reload the rounds for my Nagant revolver, and it doesn’t bother me that the payback is about 40 years based on the volume I shoot.
thomas15
Member
^^^ A lot to agree with here.
thomas15
Member
One of the observations the LCT owners like to brag about is the speed and ease of caliber changeovers. It is probably true that an LCT can change in about 15 seconds vs. 4-5 minutes on an LNL-AP. But that time savings evaporates somewhere around the 50th round to fall into the finished bin. From then on the progressive smokes any turret, classic or not. So I have learned not to put too much weight into what others say except to take that information and see if it really applies to my situation and/or expectations. Ask around enough someone has the set up being considered and will prolly allow a demo. I have become less shy about things.
I didn't make this recommendation; however, I can think of a couple of reasons. The thing to keep in mind is that these may not be true for everyone.
Reason One, some might see the lower output as less, "fun." I share an apartment with another teacher, we both have homes out of state. Last night he asked me what all the stuff on my basement desk did. I was able to easily walk him through the process of making a single round of ammunition. I can imagine how much duller the demo would have been if I had changed a bunch of dies.
To address reason one, a person might recommend large batch processing. For an experienced reloader, large batch processing may work well. However, I can see problems with beginners not realizing the need to have a super-organized work-space.
Reason two. The frequent changing of dies with a single die press may introduce variables. This can be overcome by using lock-rings that can be cinched down with a Allen screw, or by double-nutting the lock-rings.
None of these are issues that cannot be overcome (well, other than less "fun"). However, they may over complicate the process, or make the activity less desirable.
Toprudder
Member
Good advice about getting some "hands on" time, if possible.
As far as caliber or primer changeover, I know a guy that has two Dillon 550 presses, one each dedicated for large or small primers. I tease him about that, as it only takes 60 seconds to change primer size on my 550. He has plenty of money, though. He can spend it any way he wants, for any reason he wants.
The LCT is the best in regards to changeover, IMHO. Changing turrets takes a few seconds. All dies for one caliber are in the one turret, just a matter of rotating the turret to change from one die to the next. I can change between calibers almost as quickly on my 550, though, but the point that @thomas15 made about is valid when the comparison is made between the LCT and a progressive press. I guess that is one reason I only use my 550 for the high-volume calibers I shoot (mainly semi-auto pistol). I do all my revolver and rifle (except 223) on the LCT.
Nature Boy
Member
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This is often stated and I see the logic but I can only think of one reason for not going with a progressive as your fist press, even if you're loading rifle calibers: You may not like reloading and it requires more of an investment up front to get a progressive press. Better to start small if you're not sure.
Otherwise, you can run a progressive press like a single stage press. With the Dillon 650 you have the tool head already set up with powder throw and seating die (and crimp die if you use it) so no need to change dies for each step. You simply move the cartridge manually to each station. To me that sounds easier.
Brass prep is the real pain for me, and again, this is where you have a huge advantage with a progressive. That's always a separate process with rifle reloading and I always run that in progressive mode with only the decap/sizing die installed. I load the auto feed hopper with lubed brass and keep pulling the handle until evey case had been resized. Big time saver.
Varminterror
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@Bones741 your thread here is well constructed - you're kicking a hypothetical scenario (starting over) instead of a request for advice, and have offered well defined context in which respondents should answer. Kudos for an elegantly simple, yet efficient question.
To which I answer:
If I had to do it over, and I was only reloading handgun rounds:
- I would ABSOLUTELY have a progressive press, maybe multiple. If money isn't an issue, flip a coin between the Hornady or the Dillon. I had a dillon, my newest is a hornady. If money is tight, the Lee Pro 1000 or Loadmaster are fine. I'll be interested to see how their new breech lock pro runs, at such a low price point. It's very nice having "production lines" set up and ready to run, rather than rebuilding every time I want to change. Add a used single stage Lee if you want to run a universal decapper. I'm careful of my press and die (or at least lock collar) selections to let me keep my dies set - not all lock collars fit happily together on all press tool heads.
- I go back and forth on case cleaning systems. I have all 3 currently, love all 3, use all 3. I most often use an ultrasonic, followed with a brass dryer. Wouldn't mind having a vibe tumbler for polishing, but I favor the speed of the Ultrasonic - sometimes it IS nice to be able to just set the rotary and let it cook. I almost NEVER clean, only polish, in my vibratory.
- I'd set up a drill press with a quick lock base and a series of Lee case length gauges to trim ('cuz I do see value in trimming revolver and pistol brass).
- All 4 die sets, or home-built versions of said. Size, expand and charge, seat, crimp. Add another position if you want a powder cop. All carbide sizers, no messing with lube, ever.
- I'd dig around for an old Lee round tray hand primer, otherwise I'd probably use my current set up - a Bald Eagle bench primer with a home-brew dispenser, using a Lee press mount Safety Prime.
- I'd develop my loads with a powder drop in mind, so I could use the progressive press to its fullest.
Ultimately, I'd end up right where I am today, because I've never considered myself married to my equipment - if I find a better way to operate, I change my operation - so the best idea I have today is what I use. My gear has been changing to suit my needs for over 25yrs, and I can sparsely think of many if any changes I'd make to be better suited, other than simply adding more production lines.
THEWELSHM
Member
I wouldn’t put wet lead after quenching back into the pot when casting Almost bought a paint job on wifeys car....
Thewelshm
Almost bought a paint job on wifeys car....Thewelshm
My take is this:
9mm 2.8cpr primer, 1.8 cpr powder, 3 cpr case, and 10 cpr bullet. Comes out to 17.5 cpr. Now I use a true jacketed hollow point Zero bullet. I like it that way, accuracy, no leading, no lead anywhere as I have small boys. Of course this cost will go down as I collect cases and reuse more, with my final cost reusing cases at 14.5, which is significantly lower than sgammo FMJ at 18-19cpr delivered.
So I’m shooting a cartridge that would cost well into the high 20s at a minimum. Sure, sgammo has 9mm brass case FMJ all day for 19cpr delivered, and you can get deals better than that delivered sometimes.
So when I just look at 9mm, I’m only saving 1.5 cpr on average at WORST. But I’m shooting a much better cartridge than factory FMJ, for much cheaper. And as I reuse cases, that savings goes to 4.5 cpr.
That’s how I justify 9mm and the costs I put into it. If I just counted the 1.5 cpr I’m saving, and if I was just reloading 9mm, it would take 20+years to break even on the cost of the press at 3000 rounds a year. Now a lot of guys cast, or use coated lead, and that brings your cost down even more. It all depends on your time vs money budget.
Having said all that, I load 40 S&W for the same as 9mm, and save 6.5 cpr or more over FMJ ammo. But again, the cheapest JHP is 30 cpr, so that’s 13-16 cpr saving.
Now 357 and 38 is where I save bigly. At least half the cost of the cheapest commercial round. For 357, for example, I use 2400 with a hornady xtp 158 grain bullet. 23cpr. That same cartridge, essentially a hornady “custom” round, costs 83 cents at the cheapest online or local store I’ve found. And it’s a damn fine round, almost full house, super accurate, and works in everything, lever guns and all. Even if I went cheap on 357, I’m still looking at 33 cpr at a minimum. For 38, my cost is 16cpr, with and RMR 158 grain plated bullet and unique. Cheapest fmj from sgammo is 29cpr delivered.
I prefer to shoot plated or fully jacketed bullets because of lead exposure. My kid is 18 months, and I take precautions to protect him. I don’t want it on my cleaning bench, on my press, anywhere.
With cartridges like 41 magnum, 327, or 454 casull, 460 smith, 500 smith , 45 colt, you are going to save an incredible amount.
Bottom line is I shoot 9k or so a year. It will take 2 years or less to break even on a high equipment investment. But my Dillon 650 will last a lifetime.
I also think that if a person is mechanically inclined, at all, and take your time, watch videos, and research and read—-first—-then you can buy a 650xl, and load safely and quickly in a weekend, from unbox on Saturday morning to first cartridge by Sunday afternoon. I did, and it went very well. A lot of guys will tell you single stage. And it is cheaper, but what’s your time worth? In 4 hours, from primer tube loading to cleanup of bench and press, I can have 1K+ rounds loaded and in ammo boxes, case gauged and GTG. And that’s with breaks and what not. A single stage-I don’t even know how long. But much much longer. Again, it’s a time vs money budget.
You should research a lot, watch some videos while you still can on YouTube, and get a manual.
Entry price to get everything you need can run 200 bucks for a single stage press, dies, and components to load cartridges with, all the way to 2k bucks or more just for the Dillon Fabrication equipment to reload your calibers.
A lotta guys say you shoot more, but I don’t, right now anyway. In just shoot the same amount, but for cheaper.
9mm 2.8cpr primer, 1.8 cpr powder, 3 cpr case, and 10 cpr bullet. Comes out to 17.5 cpr. Now I use a true jacketed hollow point Zero bullet. I like it that way, accuracy, no leading, no lead anywhere as I have small boys. Of course this cost will go down as I collect cases and reuse more, with my final cost reusing cases at 14.5, which is significantly lower than sgammo FMJ at 18-19cpr delivered.
So I’m shooting a cartridge that would cost well into the high 20s at a minimum. Sure, sgammo has 9mm brass case FMJ all day for 19cpr delivered, and you can get deals better than that delivered sometimes.
So when I just look at 9mm, I’m only saving 1.5 cpr on average at WORST. But I’m shooting a much better cartridge than factory FMJ, for much cheaper. And as I reuse cases, that savings goes to 4.5 cpr.
That’s how I justify 9mm and the costs I put into it. If I just counted the 1.5 cpr I’m saving, and if I was just reloading 9mm, it would take 20+years to break even on the cost of the press at 3000 rounds a year. Now a lot of guys cast, or use coated lead, and that brings your cost down even more. It all depends on your time vs money budget.
Having said all that, I load 40 S&W for the same as 9mm, and save 6.5 cpr or more over FMJ ammo. But again, the cheapest JHP is 30 cpr, so that’s 13-16 cpr saving.
Now 357 and 38 is where I save bigly. At least half the cost of the cheapest commercial round. For 357, for example, I use 2400 with a hornady xtp 158 grain bullet. 23cpr. That same cartridge, essentially a hornady “custom” round, costs 83 cents at the cheapest online or local store I’ve found. And it’s a damn fine round, almost full house, super accurate, and works in everything, lever guns and all. Even if I went cheap on 357, I’m still looking at 33 cpr at a minimum. For 38, my cost is 16cpr, with and RMR 158 grain plated bullet and unique. Cheapest fmj from sgammo is 29cpr delivered.
I prefer to shoot plated or fully jacketed bullets because of lead exposure. My kid is 18 months, and I take precautions to protect him. I don’t want it on my cleaning bench, on my press, anywhere.
With cartridges like 41 magnum, 327, or 454 casull, 460 smith, 500 smith , 45 colt, you are going to save an incredible amount.
Bottom line is I shoot 9k or so a year. It will take 2 years or less to break even on a high equipment investment. But my Dillon 650 will last a lifetime.
I also think that if a person is mechanically inclined, at all, and take your time, watch videos, and research and read—-first—-then you can buy a 650xl, and load safely and quickly in a weekend, from unbox on Saturday morning to first cartridge by Sunday afternoon. I did, and it went very well. A lot of guys will tell you single stage. And it is cheaper, but what’s your time worth? In 4 hours, from primer tube loading to cleanup of bench and press, I can have 1K+ rounds loaded and in ammo boxes, case gauged and GTG. And that’s with breaks and what not. A single stage-I don’t even know how long. But much much longer. Again, it’s a time vs money budget.
You should research a lot, watch some videos while you still can on YouTube, and get a manual.
Entry price to get everything you need can run 200 bucks for a single stage press, dies, and components to load cartridges with, all the way to 2k bucks or more just for the Dillon Fabrication equipment to reload your calibers.
A lotta guys say you shoot more, but I don’t, right now anyway. In just shoot the same amount, but for cheaper.
Crappy Dillon gear? I’m hurt.
Charlie98
Member
Well... to each his own. I still run my progressive press manually... inserting each shell, actuating the powder drop, setting each bullet... it allows me one more chance to look at the rounds I'm assembling and it's components. As I say, if the OP is just looking to load for 2 handgun calibers in limited numbers, it really would be a waste to dump a bunch of money into a progressive press... just my opinion. If he ever ramps up and winds up with a progressive, the single-stage still has value as a case prepper, and I still assemble most rifle rounds on the single-stage... Hornady doesn't make a shell plate for the .348WCF...
Meh, some railing in here. I didn't tell anyone to start on a progressive press. I said SS O frame presses were obsolete. They are from the mid 19 century or earlier and there is little reason to buy one(outside of precision big rifle) with presses like the LCT on the market.
My first bench mounted press was the LCT, and I started in SS mode until I felt confident to run it as a turret. It didn't take long
Progressive presses are typically lousy for working up loads or experimenting on, or for loading big rifle, particularly precision rifle(I am sure some do, though).
Rock chuckers should be left back in 1972 where they came from. *shrug*
My first bench mounted press was the LCT, and I started in SS mode until I felt confident to run it as a turret. It didn't take long
Progressive presses are typically lousy for working up loads or experimenting on, or for loading big rifle, particularly precision rifle(I am sure some do, though).
Rock chuckers should be left back in 1972 where they came from. *shrug*
Toprudder
Member
Just keep in mind that the primer residue contains lead as well. Spent casings, even from plated loads, will have lead residue.
thomas15
Member
Handloading is like fishing. You bait the hook (the hook costs about a dime), the fish thinks it getting a free meal, instead it is the start of misery. Misery for two parties. The fish as he becomes the fisherman's dinner, misery for the fisherman because after the first fish is caught, that 10 cent kook becomes attached to a $800.00 rod/reel stored on an 21' fiberglass hull with a 200 HP outboard, pulled by a 3/4 pick-up truck that has the sole job of pulling the 21' hull.
Handloading is like a religion. All of the believers think their faith is the one true faith and want the prospective convert to worship exactly their way. It's interesting to see the deacons of the LCT sort of back off their dogma as of late in anticipation of the new and improved auto breech lock pro 4000. Even so, the prospects of the upcoming baptism seems to have many of the faithful a bit worried as it appears the new and improved communion wafer will probably not taste as yummy as the old manna and will most likely not live up to the pronouncements of the latest encyclical: The Fastest, easiest and most economical progressive press ever made???
Handloading is like a religion. All of the believers think their faith is the one true faith and want the prospective convert to worship exactly their way. It's interesting to see the deacons of the LCT sort of back off their dogma as of late in anticipation of the new and improved auto breech lock pro 4000. Even so, the prospects of the upcoming baptism seems to have many of the faithful a bit worried as it appears the new and improved communion wafer will probably not taste as yummy as the old manna and will most likely not live up to the pronouncements of the latest encyclical: The Fastest, easiest and most economical progressive press ever made???
I would listen to the less bellicose voices that offer ideas and gasp! even own more than one type of press. There is a lot of good equipment out there and no surprise than many reloaders really appreciate the equipment they have. That doesn't mean they are all mindless fanboys that denigrate any other choice or are intolerant of other experiences and perspectives. Most reloaders I know, regardless of the equipment they have, are more than interested in anything that works better. Some guys have more time than money and others can't afford much time to futz around.
I have not found a single manufacturer that gets everything "the best". I have dies from several makers for different reasons. Most will get the basic job done, but it is nice to have what works best regardless of the brand. For example I really like the RCBS X-Dies for .223 and .30-06, but RCBS makes bar none the worst shaped, roughest expander button on the planet. Lyman makes a terrific neck sizer with a carbide expander button that works very slick with no lube and little stress on the neck. In general I would buy the dies of the same brand as the press because sometimes the depth need to screw in varies by brand and some dies are not as long as others. Dillon radiuses the opening to their sizing die bodies which makes for much smoother operation on a progressive but may not size the very last little section above the head. Others may have longer die body for sizing but may not work as well in a progressive. You have to start somewhere, but as you go along you figure out what is more important to you: time, cost-savings, quantity, precision, standardization, optimization, etc.
Anyone that jumps up and down insisting their choice is the only best one possible isn't being very rational. They may have some good experience but they are probably ignoring a mass of information and experience by wearing "my choice only" blinders and I would take whatever they say as confined to their small scope of exploration. I find it much more interesting to hear from someone who has tried various brands and can give objective pros/cons.
I have not found a single manufacturer that gets everything "the best". I have dies from several makers for different reasons. Most will get the basic job done, but it is nice to have what works best regardless of the brand. For example I really like the RCBS X-Dies for .223 and .30-06, but RCBS makes bar none the worst shaped, roughest expander button on the planet. Lyman makes a terrific neck sizer with a carbide expander button that works very slick with no lube and little stress on the neck. In general I would buy the dies of the same brand as the press because sometimes the depth need to screw in varies by brand and some dies are not as long as others. Dillon radiuses the opening to their sizing die bodies which makes for much smoother operation on a progressive but may not size the very last little section above the head. Others may have longer die body for sizing but may not work as well in a progressive. You have to start somewhere, but as you go along you figure out what is more important to you: time, cost-savings, quantity, precision, standardization, optimization, etc.
Anyone that jumps up and down insisting their choice is the only best one possible isn't being very rational. They may have some good experience but they are probably ignoring a mass of information and experience by wearing "my choice only" blinders and I would take whatever they say as confined to their small scope of exploration. I find it much more interesting to hear from someone who has tried various brands and can give objective pros/cons.
gbw
Member
I’d start with a Lee Loadmasters or Dillon 550. If you load much (1000 or more per year) you’ll want a progressive eventually. Most of us load much more than that, and single stage is way too slow. Either of these may be used easily as single stage while you’re learning. If you don’t load much (and don’t think you will in the future) then any of the quality single stage kits will do.
Rifle reloading isn’t as attractive as it used to be, bullet costs in particular are out of control imo. For handguns it’s still worth it, especially if you shoot a lot and cast your own bullets.
Rifle reloading isn’t as attractive as it used to be, bullet costs in particular are out of control imo. For handguns it’s still worth it, especially if you shoot a lot and cast your own bullets.
Some highly advanced competition shooters buy identical single stage presses and set them up for use at the range. Sizing is done in one press and seating. These shooters are some of the most skilled in the shooting sports. They have learned that excellence is achieved by simplification and fool proofing of the process.
In contrast almost 100% of pistol kabooms are shooters with progressive presses and bad habits. It appears the lazy and those prone to taking short cuts will start off with a progressives. These people are not really interested in top quality hand loading, they just want some cheap ammo fast with the least amount of work. That is where the bad habits and blown up pistols come from.
In contrast almost 100% of pistol kabooms are shooters with progressive presses and bad habits. It appears the lazy and those prone to taking short cuts will start off with a progressives. These people are not really interested in top quality hand loading, they just want some cheap ammo fast with the least amount of work. That is where the bad habits and blown up pistols come from.
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AABEN
Member
Yes go with a Lee classic Turrets press 77.50 and a Lyman 55 powder measure 83.00 it will load faster than any elect powder dispenser I some of them and I only use them when I want to shoot sub1/2 targets. One bullet puller Frankford 15.00 Case Tumbler and media separator 100.00 case cleaning media walnut 12lb 21.00 that will get you on your way. I do NOT use brass polish I let them tumble till they are very clean. I load around 5000 or more a year and have done so for 20+ years on my LEE I load most of them in the winter GOOD LUCK
thomas15
Member
How do you know all of this?
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