If you think you know your states self defense laws, think again

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Jeff White

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This case is from Texas. I'm posting this because there are a lot of members with limited or no experience with the legal system often have views about how it works that are wrong.

The attorney's talking about this case handle self defense cases and firearms law in Texas. While the case may ultimately be won on appeal there is no guarantee and that will likely generate close to a 7 figure legal bill to keep his freedom.



I'm not posting this to suggest that one shouldn't defend himself. I'm posting it as an example of what might happen in court. Comments about the lurid circumstances of this shooting are off topic and will be deleted.
 
Appeal was decided in favor of defendant a week ago.

In effect, the appeals court stated the trial court had lost
its mind by telling the defendant that he could not present
any evidence that he was in fact innocent.

> A series of erroneous rulings such as occurred here can cause ripple effects
> throughout a case that ultimately may render the proceedings fundamentally
> unfair in violation of due process. Here, regardless of whether Appellant's
> version of events or excluded testimony was credible, I have no doubt that
> he was deprived of a fair opportunity to have the jury decide these issues.
> It is the jury's province to evaluate the credibility of defensive evidence, not
> the trial judge's. The trial court denied Appellant his fundamental right to have
> the jury pass on the issue of his guilt after having a complete picture of the
> relevant facts. Not only did the court prevent the introduction of evidence to
> support justification defense jury instructions, it also then wrongly faulted
> Appellant for failing to introduce sufficient evidence to support the requested
> charges. Simply put, it all comes down to the trial court's improper interference
> with Appellant's ability to defend himself at trial.

> III. Conclusion

> The Court correctly reverses Appellant's conviction and remands for a new trial
> based on harmful jury-charge error. Even without the wrongly excluded evidence
> and the trial court's interference, Appellant managed to introduce just enough
> evidence to entitle him to the requested instruction on self-defense. What is more,
> the trial court's erroneous exclusion of Appellant's defensive evidence seriously
> undermined Appellant's ability to present a complete defense and, had it been
> raised, this would have constituted an additional basis for reversal.

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-court-of-criminal-appeals/1972550.html

This issue was less about the nuances of justifiable self defense, as it was about a modern-day kangaroo court -- a court whose actions take away the breath of just about everyone who hears about it.

You might be able a fix a trial. . .
but you can't fix doing it stupidly.
 
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Appeal was decided in favor of defendant a week ago.

In effect, the appeals court stated the trial court had lost
its mind by telling the defendant that he could not present
any evidence that he was in fact innocent.

> A series of erroneous rulings such as occurred here can cause ripple effects
> throughout a case that ultimately may render the proceedings fundamentally
> unfair in violation of due process. Here, regardless of whether Appellant's
> version of events or excluded testimony was credible, I have no doubt that
> he was deprived of a fair opportunity to have the jury decide these issues.
> It is the jury's province to evaluate the credibility of defensive evidence, not
> the trial judge's. The trial court denied Appellant his fundamental right to have
> the jury pass on the issue of his guilt after having a complete picture of the
> relevant facts. Not only did the court prevent the introduction of evidence to
> support justification defense jury instructions, it also then wrongly faulted
> Appellant for failing to introduce sufficient evidence to support the requested
> charges. Simply put, it all comes down to the trial court's improper interference
> with Appellant's ability to defend himself at trial.

> III. Conclusion

> The Court correctly reverses Appellant's conviction and remands for a new trial
> based on harmful jury-charge error. Even without the wrongly excluded evidence
> and the trial court's interference, Appellant managed to introduce just enough
> evidence to entitle him to the requested instruction on self-defense. What is more,
> the trial court's erroneous exclusion of Appellant's defensive evidence seriously
> undermined Appellant's ability to present a complete defense and, had it been
> raised, this would have constituted an additional basis for reversal.

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-court-of-criminal-appeals/1972550.html

This issue was less about the nuances of justifiable self defense, as it was about a modern-day kangaroo court -- a court whose actions take away the breath of just about everyone who hears about it.

You might be a ble a fix a trial. . .
but you can't fix doing it stupidly.

I want to know if the defendant can sue
 
I can’t believe that the prosecutor and judge didn’t know the trial would be thrown out on appeal.

You can’t count on the prosecution or the judge following the law. You can’t reliably predict what a jury might do. Court is a crap shoot.

This case is a perfect example of why we don’t accept statements like; “it can’t happen here, my state is different” or “I was on a jury once and that’s not the way the case we heard was decided.” Prosecutors and judges are human beings and they have all the prejudices and faults other humans do and sometimes the law doesn’t figure into their decision.

I don’t know what it cost the shooter for the first trial and appeal or what the second trial is going to cost but I am guessing the total legal bill is going to get close to 7 figures.

Before someone posts that I’m trying to discourage people from defending themselves I’m going to say that I’m not. This is just another example of why the use of deadly force needs to absolutely the last resort.
 
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I haven't had a chance to actually view this video...hopefully in a few hours.


"If you think you know your states self defense laws, think again"

This is actually an excellent general statement.

First of all, even attorneys and courts will have issues with laws, self-defense or otherwise. It would be the height of hubris to expect the average citizen not legally trained to be expected to know and understand all the various laws all the time. In addition to the wording, there is the actual meaning, and the context, within the legal system itself.

Laws are drafted by politicians, who may or may not be attorneys themselves, and we've already established that even attorneys and judges have difficulties with this topic. They are signed into law by other politicians. They are enforced by government agents of executive branches. They are tried in court by prosecution attorneys who interpret whether any given person's actions warrant charges based on the interpretations of those laws. On top of all this, each phase is politically influenced.

And then, over time, there may be court decisions which affect the interpretations and validity of those laws in such a way as to deviate somewhat from the way people previously interpreted their wordings.

Second, the laws themselves change all the time and it's difficult for people to keep up with what has (and has not) changed, what with all the other things they have to worry about in their day-to-day lives. Unless things make the news, changes can take place without the general population knowing. And it doesn't help that many laws are enacted, changed, or eliminated through pork belly legislation instead of discrete legislative measures on specific issues.


As a layman and not an attorney, it's my belief that the best way to "know" self-defense laws is by first looking at the actual source documentation: i.e., actually read the letter of the law.

Then work on understanding the underlying reasons/philosophy/intent behind those laws.

Then work on understanding the specific legal meanings.

I put these in this order for a reason: namely that the worst way to gain a working understanding of complex issues is attempting rote memorization. While memorization IS important, what cements things in the mind for long term retention, use, and practical applications is meaningful learning. If you understand the basis for something, then it becomes easier to remember the specifics. And even if you can't remember specifics you are far more likely to make better decisions with a solid grounding on the reasons why things are done the way they are. You can switch the second and third thing around, but you absolutely MUST incorporate the understanding the underlying reasons/intent of the laws.

And following these three things, engage in meaningful dialog with people over them from several perspectives. I'm an engineer. I'm not an attorney, law enforcement officer, judge, etc. I need their perspectives to round out my understandings.
 
The other side of the story is that this situation is rife with potential for an adulterous spouse to set up her husband for getting shot in the chest by her lover who gets to claim self defense because of the contrived circumstances he and his co-conspirator manufactured. The judge wouldn't have it and that's why the case shook out as it did.
 
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The other side of the story is that this situation is rife with potential for an adulterous spouse to set up her husband for getting shot in the chest by her lover who gets to claim self defense. The judge wouldn't have it and that's why the case shook out as it did.

That could well be. But the appeals court ruled (properly in my opinion) that the defense should have been allowed to present it's case. I expect that if the prosecutor thinks this was a murder plot that it will come out ion the second trial.
 
The lawyers in the youtube video somehow missed a key bit of information -- in general, you can't claim self-defense if you create the situation leading to your need to use a firearm. Even a blind man can see what happened here -- the wife sends her lover over to her house "to feed the cat," knowing that her husband will arrive in the middle of the chore, only to have the lover hide in a closet where he miraculously discovers a firearm that he uses to shoot the cuckolded husband who thinks he's responding to a burglar. That's the plot of a B movie...
 
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The lawyers in the youtube video somehow missed that key bit of information -- in general, you can't claim self-defense if you create the situation leading to your need to use a firearm. Even a blind man can see what happened here.

Do you have knowledge that this is what happened? Was the woman charged?
 
I find that video and it’s lawyer creators to be exploitation by stimulating fear. Yes, there are poorly decided legal cases, and do not get an appeal let alone overturned on appeal. So it is the responsibility of the gun owner to know how to defend (in this case) his/her training. I first trained in the Marines. As a civilian I took some specific training including Center Axis Reflex tactical training because my rotator cuffs are damaged and my ability to outstretch my arms is limited. I have mentioned my training in numerous forum posts over the past decade. I have no fear of having done so. I have a defense for my training.

I have not only a Constitutional Right to defend myself but also a natural inherent right that is the part of every living creatures nature. I must fight if attacked and if I cannot escape the attack. Therefore it is part of my duty to enhance my nature to be able to defend myself. I have and done that and continue to do so today.

In the Marine Corps I leaned how to kill as an offensive maneuver. That does not make me a killer or want-to-be killer. It just means I know how to should it be necessary. I train periodically because a skill set has to be maintained, and training is the means to that goal. Having self defense skills does nothing more than enhance your ability to defend yourself. It does not engrain a killer mentality. In spite of my training I have never fired a weapon at any person other than during the we months I served in Vietnam. I fought an enemy intent in killing me. Did that brand me a killer? If it did, then they’re 2.5 million killers that Vietnam spawned. There were millions more from WWII. Hundreds of thousands from the Middle East wars. Training neither breeds the desire to kill nor the act of killing. Training is a function of capability not intent to use that capability.

I’d be ready to testify on my own behalf if I was ever accused of trying to kill.
 
I have no direct knowledge of the case but the explanation I posited is far more plausible than concluding a Texas State court is completely corrupt and incompetent, as suggested by the attorneys in the video.
It seems the appeals court agreed with that assessment. I have never seen a case where a self defense claim was denied to the defense.
Here is the description of the case in the Appellate Court Ruling:
BACKGROUND

Prior to jury selection, the State filed a pretrial motion in limine seeking to exclude facts that went to the heart of the Appellant's defense. Specifically, the State sought to prevent Appellant from raising any defensive issues during voir dire, opening statements, cross-examination, and even during Appellant's own testimony in the event he decided to testify. Despite a complete lack of testimony to support the State's motion, the trial court agreed with the State and ordered Appellant to comply with that motion and ruling. Appellant properly objected, and the trial court erred by overruling it.

 Testimony in Front of the Jury

Appellant's testimony in front of the jury entitled him to the requested defensive charge of self-defense. Appellant testified that he had been engaged in a lengthy affair with Complainant's wife, Sandra Watson. It was Sandra who had given Appellant the passcode and key to her family home during their relationship. Appellant testified that he had entered the house on the day in question at Sandra's request to feed her cats. He parked his truck about a half-mile down the road, placed his .45 caliber handgun in his pocket, walked to the house, entered with the key provided by Sandra, and disengaged the house alarm. After feeding the cats, Appellant noticed Complainant approaching the house. Appellant testified he could not open the back door, so he went into the room Sandra described as her “sanctuary room” and tried to exit through a window that Sandra called her “escape route out of the house.” In addition to the window being stuck, Appellant could not fit through the window, so he hid in “sanctuary room” closet, where Complainant kept many of his firearms in a gun safe. One of those guns was on top of the safe.

Appellant also testified that, while in the closet, he heard Complainant rummage around the house, before suddenly appearing at the closet door in an aggressive “linebacker stance” brandishing a hunting knife while moving it up and down. Complainant shouted “YOU” in a loud booming voice as he approached Appellant in the closet while still holding his knife. When Appellant came face-to-face with Complainant, who had his hunting knife in hand, Appellant grabbed from the top of the gun safe Complainant's loaded .380 caliber handgun. Appellant testified that at this point, Complainant, still holding the knife, reached forward and grabbed the gun, which discharged below Complainant's waist as they both struggled for the gun.

Appellant and Complainant testified about a struggle that ensued following the gunshot, but those versions are vastly different.11 Although the trial court had previously stated in the pretrial hearing “that if it gets to where we have an instruction on self-defense, I will give you adequate time to explain that to the panel,” that did not happen. When Appellant was questioned about his state of mind at that moment, rather than conduct any additional hearings outside the jury's presence, without any objection from the State, the trial judge ordered the direct examination of the Appellant to stop, excused the jury, and admonished him and his lawyer by stating “you may not venture off into anything that alludes to or invades the province of self-defense.” This error on the part of the trial court deprived Appellant of his right to present a complete defense.

 Bill of Exception

Appellant also provided additional testimony in a Bill of Exception. Specifically, Appellant's affair with Sandra Watson lasted from July 2011 until the date of the offense, February 14, 2013. According to Appellant, they exchanged over 70,000 text messages during their relationship. From February 10, 2013, to the date of the offense, Appellant and Sandra exchanged 850 messages, 187 of which were on the date of the offense. Appellant also testified that Sandra's husband, Complainant, had discovered the relationship between Appellant and Sandra two months before the offense by looking at Sandra's Facebook page. While we need not consider the Bill of Exception in this case, we mention it to highlight the actions of the trial judge, which prevented Appellant from putting on a complete defense.

To reiterate, the State sought and succeeded in keeping pertinent information from the jury based on the trial court's motion in limine ruling. That erroneous ruling prevented testimony that further corroborated Appellant was having an affair with Sandra Watson for almost two years, as well as any mention of the contents of text messages and photos of Sandra Watson individually or with Appellant. This evidence also would have corroborated Appellant's claim that he had permission to be at the house on the date in question.

It sure sounds like the attorneys in the video got it right.
 
I find that video and it’s lawyer creators to be exploitation by stimulating fear. Yes, there are poorly decided legal cases, and do not get an appeal let alone overturned on appeal. So it is the responsibility of the gun owner to know how to defend (in this case) his/her training. I first trained in the Marines. As a civilian I took some specific training including Center Axis Reflex tactical training because my rotator cuffs are damaged and my ability to outstretch my arms is limited. I have mentioned my training in numerous forum posts over the past decade. I have no fear of having done so. I have a defense for my training.

I have not only a Constitutional Right to defend myself but also a natural inherent right that is the part of every living creatures nature. I must fight if attacked and if I cannot escape the attack. Therefore it is part of my duty to enhance my nature to be able to defend myself. I have and done that and continue to do so today.

In the Marine Corps I leaned how to kill as an offensive maneuver. That does not make me a killer or want-to-be killer. It just means I know how to should it be necessary. I train periodically because a skill set has to be maintained, and training is the means to that goal. Having self defense skills does nothing more than enhance your ability to defend yourself. It does not engrain a killer mentality. In spite of my training I have never fired a weapon at any person other than during the we months I served in Vietnam. I fought an enemy intent in killing me. Did that brand me a killer? If it did, then they’re 2.5 million killers that Vietnam spawned. There were millions more from WWII. Hundreds of thousands from the Middle East wars. Training neither breeds the desire to kill nor the act of killing. Training is a function of capability not intent to use that capability.

I’d be ready to testify on my own behalf if I was ever accused of trying to kill.
I think you posted in the wrong thread.......................
 
OK...I finally listened to the video and read the appeal from the link.

All I've got to say is "Holy cow, this thing reads like the judge was a close relative to the Complainant!"

I'm not sure I understand what the concurring opinion is disagreeing with the Court where it said in its conclusion "...the way Court goes about addressing the error because it highlights a concern that is not properly mixed with the question at issue".
 
I have a peripheral question.
If the legal fees cost let’s say 1 million. How does someone pay for it? I mean someone that is poor, nothing to sell and a menial job. Say they make 25k a year. How do they pay legal fees like that? Do the lawyers accept $100 a month payments? Or do they refuse to defend once they find out you’re poor?
 
I have a peripheral question.
If the legal fees cost let’s say 1 million. How does someone pay for it? I mean someone that is poor, nothing to sell and a menial job. Say they make 25k a year. How do they pay legal fees like that? Do the lawyers accept $100 a month payments? Or do they refuse to defend once they find out you’re poor?
You get what you pay for, just like so many other things in life. I’ve known criminal defense attorneys who told me they were like doctors in the 1800s and accepted barter and exchange of services as payment but I don’t think you’d get someone to take this case on contingency.

Everyone is entitled to representation in court and if you have no income you can get a public defender appointed. Many public defenders are very good attorneys but they have insane caseloads. A public defender is not likely to have the time to give your case the attention it deserves no matter how good an attorney they are, especially in jurisdictions with high caseloads.

The courts in most areas aren’t going ti appoint a public defender if you have any assets you can mortgage or sell to raise the money to pay an attorney.
 
This case should help people think about the possibility that what they see as obvious self-defense on their part might look very different when viewed from another perspective and also that what they see as an obvious attack might look like self-defense from another perspective.

It's very common to see people talk about how good shoots are good shoots with the implication that only guilty people ever go to trial and therefore it's pointless to worry about minor details. The fact is that what looks like a good shoot from one perspective can look questionable to others and what appear to be minor details from one perspective can turn out to be critically important.

I'm happy that this guy finally has a chance at justice. I'm sad to think about how much this will likely cost him...
 
I have a peripheral question.
If the legal fees cost let’s say 1 million. How does someone pay for it? I mean someone that is poor, nothing to sell and a menial job. Say they make 25k a year. How do they pay legal fees like that? Do the lawyers accept $100 a month payments? Or do they refuse to defend once they find out you’re poor?
If you carry, you should have carry insurance.
 
This case should help people think about the possibility that what they see as obvious
self-defense on their part might look very different when viewed from another perspective
Again, this case was never about interpretation of the laws of self-defense.
This case (and the Appeals Court reversal) was about defendant never being allowed to present a defense at all.

.
 
BECAUSE the judge didn't see the case as being a self-defense case and therefore didn't allow the defendant to present a case based on self-defense.

Thus: "people <should> think about the possibility that what they see as obvious self-defense on their part might look very different when viewed from another perspective..."

You can see that even on this thread one poster believes that it's plausible this was actually a case where two people conspired to commit murder.

The point is that the real world is pretty complicated and therefore basing one's legal self-defense strategy on massive oversimplifications like: "If it's a good shoot it won't ever go to trial." is a tremendously bad idea. And yet it's clear from things posted on this forum that some people do exactly that.
 
I agree with most of the points made above but isn't it also possible the husband came home unexpectedly and found an intruder in his house and took a knife out to protect himself? The boyfreind shoots him and "escapes"(leaves the scene). Alot to learn from this about what you may face defending yourself but not necessarily a simple case of self defense.
 
This is one of the points that was brought out in the video. It is certainly possible to have a situation where BOTH parties believe they are justified in their actions and the ruling explicitly calls that fact out.
 
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