halogrinder
Member
@ holy diver-
holy crap, learn some punctuation! lol!
it wasnt intentional- i fell. "it" happens
holy crap, learn some punctuation! lol!
it wasnt intentional- i fell. "it" happens
Iknow this has been done before, but AK or AR?
- Thread starter dcarch
- Start date
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halogrinder
Member
lol lol lol lol
Lakedaemonian
Member
Intended? Where do you get your information? The 5.56 is indended to inflict battle casualties and kill human beings. All this b/s about 5.56 not being an effective killing round makes me wanna throw up.
For anyone who believes 5.56 cannot kill a man effectively, come on over to my neck of the woods... I'll prove it to you.Technicly speaking, A firearm chambered in .223/5.56 or 7.62x39 is not a "battle rifle". That term is reserved for bolt action and semi-auto /full auto magazine fed (No belts or drums) rifles in the .308/7.62x51 to 8mm mauser class of rifles. Battle rifles are also typicly capable of firing (Launching) grenades and typicly have an effective range of greater than 500 yds. Unless your looking at a WW1 or II bolt gun, $700 is not going to get you one! M14's, M1 garands, FN-Fals's, Lee Enfields, '95,98 and swedish mausers, P17 enfields, Mosin Nagants,'03 springfields ,FN-49's, MAS 49 (& 49/56) are all examples of common "battle rifles".
AK's, SKS's, M16(& Ar's) mini-14s, Fnc's, Dawoo's, Steyr Aug's, Sig 556, ect are common examples of "combat carbines". Some may argue about weather or not the mini-14 should be included. Mini-14's have in the past been ordered for oversea's use by foriegn military and para-military units, and have also been in use in the US by law enforcement and prison guard units.
For your budget of $750 or less, I would probably go with a new model (Serial # starting with 580-) mini-14. It is at least or more accurate than an AK type, and has more range than the 7.62x39 chambered carbines. I also like the idea of buying MADE IN the USA, which most AK's are not. I Might consider the idea of an AK-74 type with the 5.45x39 cartridge, but you are risking getting a gun with only foriegn source made ammo that could be cut off with the stroke of a pen.
Another possibility would be a good quality SKS. The major limitation here would be that not all SKS's are well made or have chrome lined barrels ( If shooting corrosive ammo) and SKS's are not optics friendly. I have yet to see a well made and designed optic mount that doesn't require drilling and tapping of the reciever, and even then they are scarce. If you have good young eyes, then optics are not so much of an issue.
AK's, SKS's, M16(& Ar's) mini-14s, Fnc's, Dawoo's, Steyr Aug's, Sig 556, ect are common examples of "combat carbines". Some may argue about weather or not the mini-14 should be included. Mini-14's have in the past been ordered for oversea's use by foriegn military and para-military units, and have also been in use in the US by law enforcement and prison guard units.
For your budget of $750 or less, I would probably go with a new model (Serial # starting with 580-) mini-14. It is at least or more accurate than an AK type, and has more range than the 7.62x39 chambered carbines. I also like the idea of buying MADE IN the USA, which most AK's are not. I Might consider the idea of an AK-74 type with the 5.45x39 cartridge, but you are risking getting a gun with only foriegn source made ammo that could be cut off with the stroke of a pen.
Another possibility would be a good quality SKS. The major limitation here would be that not all SKS's are well made or have chrome lined barrels ( If shooting corrosive ammo) and SKS's are not optics friendly. I have yet to see a well made and designed optic mount that doesn't require drilling and tapping of the reciever, and even then they are scarce. If you have good young eyes, then optics are not so much of an issue.
halogrinder
Member
i disagree completely when you say you cannot own a battle rifle for less than 700 dollars.
have you ever been introduced to a mosin nagant? i have multiple flavors and LOVE them dearly. the most common sub 100 dollar gun known to man?! lol 7.62x54 FTW! i love all my 54R guns.
let me tell you- shooting a 91/30 out to 750 yards and trying to hit a 3 foot round peice of steel is not an easy task with iron sights. hell anything with iron sights out that far isnt an easy task AT ALL.
corrosive ammo is nothing to worry about- shoot, then use a squirt bottle to run some ammonia down the barrel and action. clean normally when you get home.
another battle rifle (that is still used today) is ....... a CETME that runs in .308 if your willing to mess with it to make it run right- mine still isnt in 100% happy mode yet. they are 4-5 hundred bucks.
also- when you build an AK47 or an AR your chance of it being built in the US is very high. have to have at least 50% of an AK that is imported to be US made.... winner winner chicken dinner.
when it comes down to it-
AR's are 500 dollar guns
AK's are 350 or less dollar guns.
BTW heres a (very graphic- i WARN YOU NOT WORK OR SENSITIVE SAFE) report on some ar15 vs human just to show you AR's arnt the "do all be all" round.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf
have you ever been introduced to a mosin nagant? i have multiple flavors and LOVE them dearly. the most common sub 100 dollar gun known to man?! lol 7.62x54 FTW! i love all my 54R guns.
let me tell you- shooting a 91/30 out to 750 yards and trying to hit a 3 foot round peice of steel is not an easy task with iron sights. hell anything with iron sights out that far isnt an easy task AT ALL.
corrosive ammo is nothing to worry about- shoot, then use a squirt bottle to run some ammonia down the barrel and action. clean normally when you get home.
another battle rifle (that is still used today) is ....... a CETME that runs in .308 if your willing to mess with it to make it run right- mine still isnt in 100% happy mode yet. they are 4-5 hundred bucks.
also- when you build an AK47 or an AR your chance of it being built in the US is very high. have to have at least 50% of an AK that is imported to be US made.... winner winner chicken dinner.
when it comes down to it-
AR's are 500 dollar guns
AK's are 350 or less dollar guns.
BTW heres a (very graphic- i WARN YOU NOT WORK OR SENSITIVE SAFE) report on some ar15 vs human just to show you AR's arnt the "do all be all" round.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf
nalioth
Member
Myth.halogrinder said:
Any water-based cleanser (including a spray bottle with 100% water) will serve the purpose here.
It is the water that sluices some of the salts out, not any additives.
Cryogaijin
Member
Dunno why you'd say that! My saiga .308 has never suffered a malf during wintertime. I've put a couple hundred rounds through it at -40 degrees, and no problems. I will admit, it does help with the barrel cooling, however!
Now the summer, on the other hand, I've had tons of problems. I'll go to the range with a full set of magazines loaded up (I run 4 25 round magazines and 2 20 round magazines) and suddenly all my magazines are empty, it is a couple hours later, I'm at home sitting next to an unopened box of german milsurp. If I didn't know better I'd swear I got abducted by aliens who shot off all my ammo, and used my credit card to buy more.
Huge, FATAL flaw to the .308.
Maverick223
Member
Hehehe. AK=Alaska, AR=Arkansas...that is why I chose AK in the summer time...its too dang cold *there* in the winter.
FWIW, the AK is probably a mite more reliable in most any weather (not to discredit the AR which is a great deal more reliable than it is often portrayed, but requires more maintenance/oil/et cetera)...well, barring alien ammo abductions and the like.
HOLY DIVER
Member
halogrinder I'll learn some punctuation if u stop being clumsy and falling in mud holes. lol
JackTheRipper
Member
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2010
- Messages
- 170
be cool... be different... get the AK
dcarch:
i think you will be happier with the AK for these reasons:
-because you are a newbie to these kind of rifles i would start w/ the AK because it is more simple. they are easier to take apart and clean......and they are easier to operate if you are used to traditional style actions.
-because ammo is cheaper
-because they are more reliable. you being a noobie i can foresee you maybe not cleaning your gun after every session. you can have fun with it and clean it once every Christmas.
-because you can blow stuff up at close range. the AR will be more accurate at longer distances. but the AK is a bigger caliber and hitting milk jugs filled w/ water is O so fun!
-because less people have them compared to ARs. they look mean, and your friends will drool over it.
because you cant go wrong with an AK!
im not taking anything away from the AR.....its a good rifle too, but your first gun should be an AK!
i think you will be happier with the AK for these reasons:
-because you are a newbie to these kind of rifles i would start w/ the AK because it is more simple. they are easier to take apart and clean......and they are easier to operate if you are used to traditional style actions.
-because ammo is cheaper
-because they are more reliable. you being a noobie i can foresee you maybe not cleaning your gun after every session. you can have fun with it and clean it once every Christmas.
-because you can blow stuff up at close range. the AR will be more accurate at longer distances. but the AK is a bigger caliber and hitting milk jugs filled w/ water is O so fun!
-because less people have them compared to ARs. they look mean, and your friends will drool over it.
because you cant go wrong with an AK!
im not taking anything away from the AR.....its a good rifle too, but your first gun should be an AK!
Here's the reasons why you shouldn't buy an AK - or an AR, if they apply:
Because it looks cool and your friends drool;
It's seems easy to use and not clean - whats hard about either? Simple soldier takedown designs, and the carelessly applied technique of neglecting them to rot works equally well with the same results. You get a Somali grade junker.
When you look a bit deeper into ergonomics, you discover the AK doesn't have a bolt hold open on the last shot, or for that matter, at all. The difference is that you load a full mag against the bolt and have to rock it against the mag spring pressure at full compression, then cycle the bolt to chamber a round. In that process, the safety is OFF. Very few accidentally fire a round in the process, but it's possible. The AR is PROPERLY loaded by retracting the bolt and HOLDING IT BACK with the hold open, insert magazine, and release bolt to chamber. The safety can be ON during the process.
With a reload, no improvement for the AK, the AR already has the bolt locked back, you drop the mag by pushing the button with the trigger finger, the hand stays on the grip. The off hand inserts a new mag and trips the hold open, bolt chambers a round full force every time, you go back to shooting.
The average 22 year old soldier with an AR can and will be faster than one with an AK. More rounds fired at the enemy means more hits, with the AR up and firing more quickly, AR's will have more ammo in the air.
Add, the AR is effective past 450M, the AK only 300, because of bullet drop. That big 7.62 isn't as aerodynamic and weighs more, so it's attracted by gravity and falls to earth sooner. You have to train a lot more to get the holdover at longer ranges. You can sight in with a point blank aim further with the AR than the AK.
Right now, AK ammo is cheap, seems to be an interesting blip in the history of ammo pricing, but that has nothing to do with it's effective ballistics or use on a live target. There are AK owners who hunt using their firearms, but if it's serious work, like feral hog eradication, a lot use the AR in 6.8 or other guns/calibers as a first choice. It's important to note the X39 isn't as powerful as the old .30-30, and most who recommend it do so with shooting a pile of dirt as the objective. Nothing wrong with that - we all do - but is that the significant thing you want done best? The .22 can do that, too.
I see it continuing to be repeated, "AK's are reliable!" and it's not what's actually happening in America with $450 imported parts guns. EITHER design in military grade is reliable, you can get your moneys worth in an AR even if you build it. The AK, not so much, it's a gunsmith level job, and you can't mod it easily. Caliber changes, dropping in a new trigger, even puttting on a red dot are a pain.
The shooter is far better off with a midlength 16" A3 upper AR-15. The range plinker may never notice the difference.
Because it looks cool and your friends drool;
It's seems easy to use and not clean - whats hard about either? Simple soldier takedown designs, and the carelessly applied technique of neglecting them to rot works equally well with the same results. You get a Somali grade junker.
When you look a bit deeper into ergonomics, you discover the AK doesn't have a bolt hold open on the last shot, or for that matter, at all. The difference is that you load a full mag against the bolt and have to rock it against the mag spring pressure at full compression, then cycle the bolt to chamber a round. In that process, the safety is OFF. Very few accidentally fire a round in the process, but it's possible. The AR is PROPERLY loaded by retracting the bolt and HOLDING IT BACK with the hold open, insert magazine, and release bolt to chamber. The safety can be ON during the process.
With a reload, no improvement for the AK, the AR already has the bolt locked back, you drop the mag by pushing the button with the trigger finger, the hand stays on the grip. The off hand inserts a new mag and trips the hold open, bolt chambers a round full force every time, you go back to shooting.
The average 22 year old soldier with an AR can and will be faster than one with an AK. More rounds fired at the enemy means more hits, with the AR up and firing more quickly, AR's will have more ammo in the air.
Add, the AR is effective past 450M, the AK only 300, because of bullet drop. That big 7.62 isn't as aerodynamic and weighs more, so it's attracted by gravity and falls to earth sooner. You have to train a lot more to get the holdover at longer ranges. You can sight in with a point blank aim further with the AR than the AK.
Right now, AK ammo is cheap, seems to be an interesting blip in the history of ammo pricing, but that has nothing to do with it's effective ballistics or use on a live target. There are AK owners who hunt using their firearms, but if it's serious work, like feral hog eradication, a lot use the AR in 6.8 or other guns/calibers as a first choice. It's important to note the X39 isn't as powerful as the old .30-30, and most who recommend it do so with shooting a pile of dirt as the objective. Nothing wrong with that - we all do - but is that the significant thing you want done best? The .22 can do that, too.
I see it continuing to be repeated, "AK's are reliable!" and it's not what's actually happening in America with $450 imported parts guns. EITHER design in military grade is reliable, you can get your moneys worth in an AR even if you build it. The AK, not so much, it's a gunsmith level job, and you can't mod it easily. Caliber changes, dropping in a new trigger, even puttting on a red dot are a pain.
The shooter is far better off with a midlength 16" A3 upper AR-15. The range plinker may never notice the difference.
Fastcast
Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 874
Only since you seem up in the air about either platform, I'll recommend something different. How about going old school?
A service grade, CMP/USGI - M1 Garand for $600.....CMP also has the ammo and en-bloc clips you'll need. Certainly a "battle rifle" that is more than capable of protecting your home/property. It protected our great nation for many years.....8 rounds of 30-06 and a bandoleer/belt full of en-bloc clips could protect your land very well from goblins. A hit with the Garand will lay 'em down. Usually no need for follow up shots.
If the Garand is too big or too heavy for you, how about a USGI M1 Carbine? For close quarters work, the ergonomics don't get much better than the original M1 carbine. 30 rounds of soft point 30 cal ought to persuade the goblins to move on. Out to about 200 yrds a soft point will ruin those pesky yotes day also.
IMO....In your price range, I'd say either of these will offer for greater pride of ownership and be top quality, reliable workhorses.....Not to mention the history and ooohs & aaahs when you pull one out of your safe for show and tell.
A service grade, CMP/USGI - M1 Garand for $600.....CMP also has the ammo and en-bloc clips you'll need. Certainly a "battle rifle" that is more than capable of protecting your home/property. It protected our great nation for many years.....8 rounds of 30-06 and a bandoleer/belt full of en-bloc clips could protect your land very well from goblins. A hit with the Garand will lay 'em down. Usually no need for follow up shots.
If the Garand is too big or too heavy for you, how about a USGI M1 Carbine? For close quarters work, the ergonomics don't get much better than the original M1 carbine. 30 rounds of soft point 30 cal ought to persuade the goblins to move on. Out to about 200 yrds a soft point will ruin those pesky yotes day also.
IMO....In your price range, I'd say either of these will offer for greater pride of ownership and be top quality, reliable workhorses.....Not to mention the history and ooohs & aaahs when you pull one out of your safe for show and tell.
camoman33935
Member
My honest opinion is to get a Saiga in 7.62x39 and convert it. You can do an inexpensive conversion for less than $500 depending on what stock and pistol grip you use. The other money can either be spent on ammo for it or put back to start saving for an AR.
I have an AR and love it but I want to try something new so I'm selling it so I can have money for a new project, a Saiga. I have no problems with the AR platform and yes it is indeed very versitile but like I said, I want to try something new.
I have an AR and love it but I want to try something new so I'm selling it so I can have money for a new project, a Saiga. I have no problems with the AR platform and yes it is indeed very versitile but like I said, I want to try something new.
Tirod,
come on man......who hasnt bought a gun, thinking their friends are going to be impressed. you need to relax man. the guy is new to these kinds of guns. you are over thinking it. you did touch on some good points. one, however, i disagree with you completely......
the AK is a much more simple gun for anyone to learn.....ie: shooting and field stripping.
my AR takes me 3hrs to sit down and clean every little piece, to make sure there is no carbon build up on the gas key ect ect ect. my AK takes me 20 mins to fully clean and oil everything.
im just sayin........a civilian noob that is not familiar with military weapons might consider that advice.
and if he plans on doing a lot of shooting....its nice that ammo is .10 a round cheaper.
come on man......who hasnt bought a gun, thinking their friends are going to be impressed. you need to relax man. the guy is new to these kinds of guns. you are over thinking it. you did touch on some good points. one, however, i disagree with you completely......
the AK is a much more simple gun for anyone to learn.....ie: shooting and field stripping.
my AR takes me 3hrs to sit down and clean every little piece, to make sure there is no carbon build up on the gas key ect ect ect. my AK takes me 20 mins to fully clean and oil everything.
im just sayin........a civilian noob that is not familiar with military weapons might consider that advice.
and if he plans on doing a lot of shooting....its nice that ammo is .10 a round cheaper.
Wow I clean my ARs after a day of hunting or range work is less than 10 minutes a piece. And that is taking my time. Simple to clean and lube but maybe I bought the clean models. hahahah Harder to clean Pistols than an AR.
To the OP good luck on what ever you get just do not be surprised if you end up with both before it is all said and done.
To the OP good luck on what ever you get just do not be surprised if you end up with both before it is all said and done.
Fastcast
Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 874
dcarch
Member
I am planning on enlisting relatively soon. Would it help if I got an AR, or would they teach me a totally different mode of operation that what I learned? For familiarization purposes, would getting an AR be better?
nalioth
Member
They'll teach you how they want you to shoot.dcarch said:
Prior practice isn't necessary, as the AR is really simple to use.
After you've been in a while, you'll be quite familiar with the AR15/M16 platform, believe me (blindfold disassembly/assembly drills spring to mind here).
Maverick223
Member
Nope, break the shot at the same time...they hit the ground at the same time (assuming that both are shot at the same relative elevation and one doesn't go over a cliff)...OTOH one will go a great deal farther before hitting the ground.Tirod said:
I have to second the idea of going with an M-1 Carbine instead...outstanding rifle, easy to shoot, easy to maintain, and just plain fun. The only faults I know of are ammunition being a bit costly for someone that doesn't handload and being able to shoot it...because other folks (that you lend it to) won't give it back.
my AR takes me 3hrs to sit down and clean every little piece, to make sure there is no carbon build up on the gas key
In which case you might be surprised to learn you are wasting you time. Carbon will not build up enough to plug the gas key. It's getting a 25,000 pound shot of gas through it.
It would take about 2,400 rounds to even get a stoppage, that's 10 basic loads of ammo, according to Mike Pannone's experiment shooting a completely dry AR. At that point, adding lube fired a few more magazines.
I have yet to see anyone try that with the AK - and whether the piston is on the barrel or in the bolt, either will get residue, but the AK is always considered immune to any buildup and never needs cleaning? Talk to the Garand shooters, not cleaning the gas cylinder will eventually seize it and gunsmithing is necessary.
As for bullet drop, no argument about time in flight. Holdover is significantly different and contributes to the AK having 200 yards less effective range. Being able to put sights on target and get a close hit is a lot more important to the new shooter. Learning to calculate range, and then adding more elevation because of drop is an advanced skill. Beginners aren't expected to excel at it, it takes thousands of rounds to be good.
Both make the AR better for the new shooter, it hits closer to point of aim further, and is easier to keep the piston cleaner when you can. The legendary AK reliability doesn't make it a user friendly shooter, and plinking ammo isn't working ammo for field hunting or combat.
A better case could be made for the lever .30-30, more powerful, ambidextrous, and even easier to learn and shoot, compared to the AK.
In which case you might be surprised to learn you are wasting you time. Carbon will not build up enough to plug the gas key. It's getting a 25,000 pound shot of gas through it.
It would take about 2,400 rounds to even get a stoppage, that's 10 basic loads of ammo, according to Mike Pannone's experiment shooting a completely dry AR. At that point, adding lube fired a few more magazines.
I have yet to see anyone try that with the AK - and whether the piston is on the barrel or in the bolt, either will get residue, but the AK is always considered immune to any buildup and never needs cleaning? Talk to the Garand shooters, not cleaning the gas cylinder will eventually seize it and gunsmithing is necessary.
As for bullet drop, no argument about time in flight. Holdover is significantly different and contributes to the AK having 200 yards less effective range. Being able to put sights on target and get a close hit is a lot more important to the new shooter. Learning to calculate range, and then adding more elevation because of drop is an advanced skill. Beginners aren't expected to excel at it, it takes thousands of rounds to be good.
Both make the AR better for the new shooter, it hits closer to point of aim further, and is easier to keep the piston cleaner when you can. The legendary AK reliability doesn't make it a user friendly shooter, and plinking ammo isn't working ammo for field hunting or combat.
A better case could be made for the lever .30-30, more powerful, ambidextrous, and even easier to learn and shoot, compared to the AK.
halogrinder
Member
IDK what to tell you-
i have thousands thru a M70 underfolder. its never been cleaned. i have thrown some wheel bearing grease on the bolt rails about 1500 or so rounds ago, but i have never cleaned the piston or anything.......
i have a saiga that has 1500 or so 00 buck rounds thru it. i changed the gas plug out to a MD arms (for fun) and the factory plug was caked in there.... took a bit to get it out, but it still ran 100%
most fire fights happen in less than 100 yards. i want 7.62 over .223 in closer ranges than 100.
my CMMG AR15 does NOT, repeat does NOT like to run dry. running dry or dirty is a sure bet for a FTF.
AK's are over spring and over gassed on purpose to run all the time with minimal maintenance.
reliability is key to them being so popular around the world.
there is a reason there are 10 times more AK's in the world than AR's.
there is a reason terrorists use AK's.
my plinking ammo (wolf or anything practically) is what i use for hunting. soft points or hollow points. they work great on pigs.
i have thousands thru a M70 underfolder. its never been cleaned. i have thrown some wheel bearing grease on the bolt rails about 1500 or so rounds ago, but i have never cleaned the piston or anything.......
i have a saiga that has 1500 or so 00 buck rounds thru it. i changed the gas plug out to a MD arms (for fun) and the factory plug was caked in there.... took a bit to get it out, but it still ran 100%
most fire fights happen in less than 100 yards. i want 7.62 over .223 in closer ranges than 100.
my CMMG AR15 does NOT, repeat does NOT like to run dry. running dry or dirty is a sure bet for a FTF.
AK's are over spring and over gassed on purpose to run all the time with minimal maintenance.
reliability is key to them being so popular around the world.
there is a reason there are 10 times more AK's in the world than AR's.
there is a reason terrorists use AK's.
my plinking ammo (wolf or anything practically) is what i use for hunting. soft points or hollow points. they work great on pigs.
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