Illegal immigrants should be allowed Carry Permits. Deal or No Deal?

[GruntII]

I hope you're not proud of that disgusting remark.

It's war and they are the enemy. The situation has not descended to that level yet but I have friends in the border regions that are reporting there's a storm agathering.I would rather have our society and culture endure even if it means hands including mine have to get dirty. I ain't saying it's the answer but the time may come.

I have no problem with legal immigrants they are the blood transfusion that keeps this country vibrant but illegals are scum no matter what they say about building better lives or taking care of their families. I am for the militarization of the borders with wire, watch towers, free fire zones and mines.

 

[glockamolee]

WE have carry permits to carry them right on back across the international border dividing US verses THEM.

 

[stealthcarry]

:banghead:

 

[Jammer Six]

So basically, the right to bear arms did not, in fact, come from God, but from the American government, right?

It only applies to Americans, right?

In fact, it only applies to Americans who have a permit?

Since this right comes from a government, and is not, in fact, an inalianable right, (oh, I LOVE the irony of that phrase) California's government has been within it's moral rights all along, right?

And all the yammering on this board to the contrary was a mistake, and you all see the error of your ways, now, right?



God, I love it when it goes like this...

 

[Maxwell]

Where is the difference?

The difference is "I dont care".
A "problem with the border" on your end does not justify "more gun control" on my end.

In my world:
If you go to a gun store and fail my version of the background check, you should be going to jail or on the next plane back to your homeland.
If you cant throw them in jail or throw them out, you've got little reason left to deny them a firearm.

Immigration is using the same kind of tyranical limbo-law gun owners complain about, I see no point to have it if you wont enforce it.
These people are obviously not considered illegal enough by the law to be escourted out of the country since the law wont scoop them up when they walking around in broad daylight, then they are in fact here legally.

Thats the american way, charge me or let me go. Write a law that lets us put them out or dont waste our time.

We do not want to develop a new underclass by using the limbo of immigration as a way to empower modern slave drivers. Immigration and police should hold the power, not a corrupt employer waving a sword of damaclese over his flock of fruit pickers just so he can pay them less than minimum wage.

 

[ctdonath]

What raised the question in the first place? Who is talking about giving illegals gun permits?

I'm with Pax. The whole discussion is misguided: we have a 2nd Amendment which states that the right to keep and bear arms is NOT the result of the government deigning (sp?) to grant us permission, but is a God-given right of all persons; we should not need government permission to exercise the right to possess tools for self-defense, 'tis revolting to the idea of liberty.

Problem is: that permits-vs-liberty debate got crossed with a red herring. Illegal immigrants have the right to go home as quickly as possible, and there is NO room for discussion about any US jurisdiction processing any permit-type paperwork once their illegal presence is detected.

 

[Firethorn]

No Deal. Illegal Aliens are criminals, more than that, they're active criminals every second their foot remains on US soil.

However, I'll point out that I support the proposed guest worker programs, at least the ones that don't propose pardoning the ones currently here. While I know that there will be some who go home and come back under the program, at least they'd be the marginally more law abiding ones.

This way the legal immigrants and guest workers can make full use of our law enforcement and courts (standard protection from crime&contract law, not subsidies). Though I don't agree with them using welfare & such, I feel that if a state wants to provide them with it, it's the state's business.

 

[Working Man]

The issue is that they are 'illegal' and should only be entitled to a trip across
the border or a 4 by 8 cell. To be honest I do not want my tax money to put
a roof over their head of food in their belly.

All these BS terms that we use like "undocumented" and the like are just
that. It's a total crap screen that does not change the legality of the
situation. I guess rapists should be considered over zealous suitors and
buglers uninvited house guests.

This is just more douchebaggery we don't need.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

It seems very simple to me.

People want to come to my country to illegally reap the fruits of my ancestors labors, blood, sweat, and tears that made us a free nation because they don't have the stones to do the same in their nation.

If citizens of Mexico want a concealed weapon that is legal, then let them go back across the border, protest in Mexico City "en masse" where they can actually do some good, stage a revolution, effect change, and use our great nation as a model for the new Government they effect. Then, we can create a reciprocal arrangement with Mexico for CCW.
Sending them ALL back over the border and sealing it from encroachment would be the best thing for Mexico as a whole in the long term. Mexicans would be forced to make their Gub'ment more responsible and effect social change. And that would only be good for all of North America.
Send all the illegals back. No CCW permits. No licensure. No nothing.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

This is just more douchebaggery we don't need.

That's just funny right there. I don't care who you are.

 

[Jammer Six]

Yup, fear.

Scared hypocrites are even more amusing than usual...

I want to thank you for this thread, it's going to be a gold mine, the next time somebody starts whining about God-given rights.

Half a million strong, in one city.

We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border.

 

[Janitor]

First off - pax is absoultely correct - why in the hec does ANYONE need a permit in this country?

I'm pretty sure that under US law, non-residents can't even possess firearms except within some narrow constraints (must have a valid hunting permit or something).

What I'm not sure of, is why an illegal would care whether or not they could get a permit. Keep in mind that 100% of them (not 98%, not 99%, but 100%) have already proven that they don't feel our laws apply to them. What on earth in the law books is going to stop them from carrying whenever they feel like it?

Giving them a permit (like the one none of us should be required to carry) is yet one more step in MANY this country has taken to let them know their approach to ignoring our laws is legitimate. I agree with many others here. If we're going to be giving them anything, it should be a trip home.

/j

 

[Working Man]

We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border.

The border needs to be closed.

This is not about "God-given rights" this is about the law. Not a tyrannical or
unjust law oppressing the people within the land it is governing. But a good
law that is being broken by people too lazy to promote change in their own
country. They find it easer to break the laws of other countries then feel
they should be entitled to the same benefits. Now who are the hypocrites?

They should not be allowed to have gun permits, drivers licenses, or any
other benefits while breaking this law. They should be packed up and shipped
back or placed in a self sustaining work camp. We need to limit the amount
of our resources that are consumed in a manner that does not add to the
strength of our country.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Hey, can we get RKBA sorted out for CITIZENS before we go worrying about anyone else?

 

[Nitrogen]

The talk in this thread is making me absolutely SICK.
You guys should be ASHAMED of yourselves. Talking about shooting people like that.

I'm not saying these people aren't lawbreakers (they are) but realise WHY they break the law. They are trying to make lives better for themselves and their families.

Just like any of you guys would take a bullet for your wife or child, these people are taking risks to help their families.

I know a lot of people in here are Christians. I see a too much unchristian talk in this thread. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Matthew 7:1-2 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Look at the big picture. They aren't crossing the border to intently hurt you. Show some compassion.

 

[Biker]

Most illegals don't intend to harm us, some do. Regardless of intent, harm is done to our nation as a consequence of illegal immigration.
So sorry, but my compassion quota has been reached. No more.

Take a peek at this.
www.aztlan.net/la_gran_marcha.htm
Biker

 

[Dave Markowitz]

The right to keep and bear arms is a right vested in all people. The right may not be recognized in most places, but we all have it.

That said, a concealed carry permit is a recognition by the state of the right. In most states one is required to have a CCP before packing, thus in effect transforming a right into a privilege. This is not a good thing, but it is the current state of affairs. Hopefully we'll all have AK or VT carry some day.

Until that day comes, however, we should not be in the business of granting privileges to persons illegally in the country. Doing so lends legitimacy to their presence here. When discovered, they should be deported and the borders should be defended so that the influx of illegals is slowed (I am under no delusions that it can be completely stopped).

In contrast, anyone here legally, whether on a temporary or a permanent basis, should be allowed to carry a firearm for protection.

 

[WT]

If they are NOT convicted felons, then YES.

 

[GruntII]

Illegals are active combatants against our country. They are actively involved in the commission of at least one crime in progress every second they are in this country .I don't care if they are here to make a better life, to earn money for the family back home, or to hold their breath till they turn Blue. the right to bear arms is a creator endowed right.However as illegals are criminals involved in an ongoing criminal act they like criminals who have yet to finish their debt to society should have their rights curtailed until said debt is paid.In the case of illegal hispanic insurgents they can ccw all they want once they are returned to their country of origin. As far as I'm concerned they have noi rights in this country. Is this a hard core attitude yes it is,but immigation controls are in place,even if not enforced effectively to protect my country and my God given rights.

If any of you think I'm cruel check into La Raza, or the Nation of Altzan.Or just watch some of the video form last weekkend that's not USA the poor little illegals are yelling nor is it the American Flag they are waving.

 

[Camp David]

If they are going to break US residency and labor law should they be allowed to have carry permits too?

The Second Amendment presupposes "the right of the people" being legal residents. I think a legal case could be made thereof; therefore "no", illegal aliens should not be able to carry any weapons and should be arrested if found in possession of them.

 

[real_name]

Well, after reading through this I hope nobody assumed I was proposing that illegal aliens are allowed to gain permits or indeed break any other laws than the ones they are already violating.
My question was hypothetical and based in irony. I'm sure you all knew that but the debate went off track sufficiently for me to feel it was worth spelling out.
I agree that we shouldn't need permits, but obviously under the present situation have to. I do not think anyone should break laws. Maybe when I was younger and I was in England you would've got a different, more anarchic response there. But now, here in the US I am about as legit as they come, and it gets my fur up when I see others ignoring and breaking laws.

Drink driving is one, if you can't afford a cab you can't afford the drink.
Drug dealing, fine you want to wake up in nine years time with no teeth. But all those zombies you attract to my neighborhood are trying to get in my garage to get my lawnmower. I WILL call the stormtroopers and have you closed down.
And now Illegals, my new 'issue'. Yes, I admit I have issues. Why should they stay here illegally, upsetting the balance of the labor supply and demand, and creating a downturn in several industries pay schedules? Why should they be allowed to circumnavigate the arduous legal immigration/naturalization process? Why should they be 'passed over' by traffic cops because the PD doesn't want to be accused of racial profiling?

If they came here legally I would have no issue with any of this, my perspective is that of a guy who has just gone through the legal process of naturalization and sees 10M+ breaking that law, I guess it's like I'm the sober guy in a bar... it's painful to watch.

I'm not racist, I am well travelled and have lived in various cultures in Asia, Middle East and Europe. I am however a firm believer in the concept of having Societal Norms, or Laws.
And that if we are to have them there should be no exceptions.

 

[Jammer Six]

This is not about "God-given rights" this is about the law.

You might want to do a little reading.

The majority view here is that the right to bear arms is an inalienable right, endowed by our creator, and recognized, not created, by the constitution.

 

[Biker]

You bet Jammer. Excersise Mexican rights in Mexico and as soon as you become an American citizen, you can enjoy our rights.
Till then, Hasta la bye-bye.
Biker

 

[c_yeager]

By definition illegal immigrants are criminals, and criminals forfeit their rights. Wether or not the law their are violating is rightfull is besides the point, it is the law, as enacted by a government elected by the people. If the law is unjust then change it.

On the other hand, I dont think that anyone who is not a criminal should be denied their right to carry a firearm. This includes legal immigrants, documented migrant workers, tourists, and anyone else who happens to be standing within out borders at any given time.

The only way you can decide that citizenship is a prerequisite for the RKBA is with the assumption that the right is granted BY the government, not in spite of it. Thats not an assumption that i am prepared to make in the interest of keeping people from "taking our jobs".

 

[Gordon Fink]

This is one of those threads on the so-called High Road that has it all: xenophobia, hypocrisy, historical ignorance, ideological inconsistency, and even a little wisdom.

For what it’s worth, outlaws don’t need permits.

~G. Fink