Illegal immigrants should be allowed Carry Permits. Deal or No Deal?

[RealGun]

Deciding to finally scan this thread, I see that some need to more carefully consider the question. The premise is ridiculous. If an illegal immigrant identified himself to apply for a handgun license, he should be deported. It would never happen except by hubris or stupidity. Taking it beyond that is a debate about whether ANYONE should need a license.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

obfuscation

The question that started the thread does not bring up the idea of inalienable rights, only the ability to lawfully issue permits to illegal residents. This is a question of law. It seems to me that the inalienable right argument that's appeared via Jammer is more of an off topic, straw man type argument aimed at obfuscation.

Should illegal immigrants be allowed Carry Permits?

I say no. If it's so bad at your hacienda, start a revolution and change things down there. As an illegal alien, you are an invader. As an armed illegal, you are a combatant. Rules of engagement apply.

 

[Molon Labe]

The right to keep and bear arms is a gift from our creator. I am just a man. I do not have the authority to decide who can and can't bear arms. Hence every human has the right to CC without any paperwork whatsoever. This is also true for legal and illegal immigrants.

If you believe the government has the authority to decide who can and can't bear arms, you are no friend to liberty.

Of course, an illegal alien should be deported ASAP. But they should not be stripped of their RKBA.

 

[22-rimfire]

Illegal aliens who just walk across the border or otherwise just cross the US border should have no rights as they are criminals and are not US citizens. Giving them "rights" just dilutes our earned rights. Legal CCW? That is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard.

Aliens who otherwise have done things properly here to immigrate (or just be here such as a students visa or green card) should be given allowances when visa's expire prior to eviction depending on the circumstances. It has been common practice for legal aliens living here to be deported when they have visa problems. They have to re-apply for the proper visa prior to returning from their own country. (Basically this requires that the application process be done from their home country, not from here.) This has applied to folks who have married US citizens. I believe the rule is that they have to return to their own country once a year. It seems absurd that this is the case when there are millions of central american alliens moving across the border illegal who are not deported immediately.

This immigation issue, legal and otherwise, is quite complicated. I don't know what is right in absolute terms. I do think that all should comply with US Immigration laws. A work visa seems to be a reasonable partial solution. These are work visas, not green cards and not a pseudo visa for permanent immigration unless other steps are taken.

I think it is time for a national language and it won't be spanish.

 

[Camp David]

The right to keep and bear arms is a gift from our creator. I am just a man. I do not have the authority to decide who can and can't bear arms. Hence every human has the right to CC without any paperwork whatsoever. This is also true for legal and illegal immigrants

.

Don't you recognize laws in this nation? Assuming an illegal alien has ignored our immigration law what makes you think he will obey our common law? And you want him armed? Jeez.... Give him keys to your car and house too?

 

[Molon Labe]

Illegal aliens who just walk across the border or otherwise just cross the US border should have no rights as they are criminals and are not US citizens. Giving them "rights" just dilutes our earned rights.

You have it all backwards, dude.

First of all, no one can "give" anyone else rights. Rights are inalienable. No human has the authority to "give" anyone else rights.

Secondly, rights cannot be "taken away." A human can only forbid another human from exercising them. This is accomplished with force. As an example, a prisoner has the right to keep and bear arms. But we forbid that person from exercising this right.

Now that that's been cleared up... if the alien (whether legal or illegal) is not in prison, then we do not have the moral authority to forbid them from exercising their (inalienable) right to keep and bear arms.

Deport them? Sure. But forbid a human (who is not in prison) from exercising their right to keep and bear arms? My conscience won't allow it.

 

[Molon Labe]

Don't you recognize laws in this nation?

Yes. Except when they're wrong.

Assuming an illegal alien has ignored our immigration law what makes you think he will obey our common law?

Look, Camp David, you're free to arrest and charge the illegals all you want for breaking our laws. But assuming they are not in prison, we do NOT have the authority to forbid any human from keeping and bearing arms. This is true regardless of anything else. If you disagree, you have some soul searching to do...

 

[wheelgunslinger]

veering off topic

Molon Labe wrote:

If you believe the government has the authority to decide who can and can't bear arms, you are no friend to liberty.

I don't believe that. But, we as a society have agreed to abide by laws that we agree upon by voting. If we are all to have freedoms, then we must all abide by the laws that we make. This helps us to continue to grow as a society and reap the benefits and problems of the rules we vote into being. This, in turn, helps us to better our laws. Carry Permits are but one example of that. Speed limits are another.
In principle, we're on the same page. I just respect the democratic process enough to believe I can effect change from the inside. It'll be a great day when the RKBA ideology is embraced in America. Until then, we have carry permits. Those who choose to deny this process are choosing to remove themselves from the very Democratic process which makes our society. If illegals choose to be illegal and armed, then they deny our borders, sovereignty, democratic process, and the foundations of our nation. But, they would want a permit to stay out of jail.
No dice.

 

[Maxwell]

Deciding to finally scan this thread, I see that some need to more carefully consider the question. The premise is ridiculous. If an illegal immigrant identified himself to apply for a handgun license, he should be deported. It would never happen except by hubris or stupidity. Taking it beyond that is a debate about whether ANYONE should need a license.

The parallel to this problem was the to allow illegals to have drivers licenses. There is no "right to drive", yet someone saw the need to allow an illegal (who should have been arrested when he goes to the dmv) the ability to put in paperwork, sit the test, have a photo taken, and then get a permit from the hand of your state policeman to go screaming down the highway at 55mph.

I dont know how I can call them illegal if the law wont lift a finger to stop them.

If I tied this guy up, threw him in the back of my truck, drove to the border then personaly tossed his ass back into mexico with my own two hands, I would be the one going to jail!

To which I say its not my problem. The feds inability to control a border does not justify gun control.
Actually, it proves how important the 2nd amendment really is.

 

[Camp David]

... we do NOT have the authority to forbid any human from keeping and bearing arms.

Yes we do. If an alien chooses to ignore our immigration law, trespass in our nation illegally, and flaunt our requirements for registration, by God he or she is not going do it armed enjoying the same privledges that law abiders enjoy. The Founding Fathers extended the Bill of Rights to citizens of this republic, not the world at large. It says so in the preamble to the U.S. Constitution: "We the People of the United States..." not Mexicans or anyone else! Thus the Bill of Rights, which follows from the U.S. Constitution, and the Second Amendment, which follows from the Bill of Rights, are exclusively for "...the People of the United States..." An illegal alien carrying a gun is committing two crimes!

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi All-

I'm all for Mexicans carrying and shooting all the pistols, revolvers, shotguns, rifles, and bazookas they want...while residing in Mexico. My feeling is similar for people from Sweden, Thailand, Lithuania, Belgium, Chad, Australia, Denmark, Japan, Croatia, and whole bunch of other places. They're certainly welcome to visit or move here, simply follow the procedures and agreements arranged by our governments.

The rights a Mexican has to swing his fists in the air ends where my nose starts.

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi Camp David-

You are 100% correct. Our founding fathers were speaking with regard to a specific audience with their words. The oppressed, huddled, and tired masses of the world are free to petition for citizenship in our freedom-loving and wonderful country. When they secure that precious citizenship, they should be free to carry weapons in all fifty states without further hassle or trouble.

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[Molon Labe]

Camp David:

The Constitution has nothing to do with it. My position is simply a recognition that every human has a right to keep and bear arms. You are proposing we actively and intrusively forbid people from exercising an inalienable right. That's wrong.

Now pay close attention here... your argument that "only American citizens" are afforded protection is certainly valid. But does that mean the government is allowed to go out of its way and actively forbid another human from exercising their right to keep and bear arms? While I agree it is not the U.S. government's job to protect an illegal alien's right to keep and bear arms, at the same time it should not be actively forbidding them from practicing this right. Do you understand the difference? Again... while I agree it is not the U.S. government's job to protect an illegal alien's right to keep and bear arms, at the same time it should not be actively forbidding them from practicing this right.

It's a matter of philosophy, really... you believe rights are bestowed upon people, and the exercise of such rights can be freely infringed upon. I believe rights are sacred and inalienable.

 

[DRZinn]

Look at it this way: if they're armed, and resist, they won't have to be deported. We'll save a lot of money that way.

 

[Camp David]

The Constitution has nothing to do with it.

Care to rethink that a bit? I strongly recommend that you do. But if you insist upon going down that road, can you cite one law, in any of our states, that guarantees the right of illegal aliens to bear arms? I'll accept any law you cite... any one... anything at all...

On the other hand, as I have shown, our Constitution gives exclusive rights to all citizens; i.e., "the People of the United States..."... "the right to bear arms."

I'll wait while you hunt down that law...

 

[Molon Labe]

Camp David:

If you're still confused, I'll put it in simpler terms:

Let’s say Jose and I are both packing a gun.

Q. Does Jose have a right to keep and bear arms? A. Of course. The right to keep and bear arms is a gift to Jose from his creator. As such, it is inalienable.

Q. Does Molon Labe have a right to keep and bear arms? A. Of course. The right to keep and bear arms is a gift to Molon Labe from his creator. As such, it is inalienable.

Q. Is the U.S. government allowed to infringe upon Jose's right to keep and bear arms? A. Absolutely not. Unless Jose is in jail, the U.S. government does not have the authority to forbid Jose from exercising his inalienable rights.

Q. Is the U.S. government allowed to infringe upon Molon Labe's right to keep and bear arms? A. Absolutely not. Unless Molon Labe is in jail, the U.S. government does not have the authority to forbid Jose from exercising his inalienable rights.

Q. What if someone is trying to infringe upon Jose's right to keep and bear arms? Should the U.S. government come to his defense? A. Since Jose is not a U.S. citizen, no. He'll have to fend for himself.

Q. What if someone is trying to infringe upon Molon Labe's right to keep and bear arms? Should the U.S. government come to his defense? A. Molon Labe is a U.S. citizen, so yes, the U.S. government should come to his defense.

 

[DRZinn]

can you cite one law, in any of our states, that guarantees the right of illegal aliens to bear arms?

Why do you find it so hard to comprehend that the right does not exist because of the law?

 

[Camp David]

Q. Does Jose have a right to keep and bear arms? A. Of course. The right to keep and bear arms is a gift to Jose from his creator. As such, it is inalienable.

Then you'll have no problem posting proof of said "gift to Jose from his creator" guarantee to keep and bear arms... I'll accept a copy, facsimile, link, or any such proof you can provide, beyond your say so.

Meanwhile I have my Constitution guaranteeing "the right to bear arms" to all citizens...

I'll wait while you hunt down that proof...

 

[Molon Labe]

Care to rethink that a bit? I strongly recommend that you do. But if you insist upon going down that road, can you cite one law, in any of our states, that guarantees the right of illegal aliens to bear arms? I'll accept any law you cite... any one... anything at all...

On the other hand, as I have shown, our Constitution gives exclusive rights to all citizens; i.e., "the People of the United States..."... "the right to bear arms."

I'll wait while you hunt down that law...

I'm not aware of any law that "guarantees" the right to keep and bear arms. What does that mean?? I think you mean that the government has promised not to infringe upon a person's right to keep and bear arms. Big difference.

So yea, it's true the government has not promised to not take away Jose's right to keep and bear arms. (See my post above.) But does that mean the government has carte blanche to actively forbid Jose from exercising the rights he was born with?? I think not.

The government has also not promised to not protect Jose's right to free speech. Does this mean the government should actively forbid Jose from exercising his right to free speech?

 

[Camp David]

I'm not away of any law that "guarantees" the right to keep and bear arms. What does that mean??

I have the Second Amendment, in the Bill of Rights, under the U.S. Constitution, guaranteeing "citizens" the "right to bear arms." You have yet to post anything at all, beyond your say so, supporting your position.

The government has also not promised to not protect Jose's right to free speech. Does this mean the government should actively forbid Jose from exercising his right to free speech?

Absolutely. Illegal aliens lack any rights under the Bill of Rights, under the U.S. Constitution, since they don't qualify, as stated in the Constitution, by the Founding Fathers, which set forth all such rights exclusively for "...the People of the United States..."

Plan to post any evidence at all supporting your argument?

 

[Molon Labe]

I have the Second Amendment, in the Bill of Rights, under the U.S. Constitution, guaranteeing "citizens" the "right to bear arms." You have yet to post anything at all, beyond your say so, supporting your position.

I again ask... what do you mean by "guaranteeing"?

Then you'll have no problem posting proof of said "gift to Jose from his creator" guarantee to keep and bear arms... I'll accept a copy, facsimile, link, or any such proof you can provide, beyond your say so.

So only U.S. citizens have inalienable rights? The Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto did not have an inalienable right to keep and bear arms? The French citizens under Nazi occupation did not have an inalienable right to keep and bear arms? If you believe this, there's nothing more I can say to you, Camp David.

 

[Camp David]

there's nothing more I can say to you

Couldn't find any evidence to support your position huh?

I again ask... what do you mean by "guaranteeing"?

Bolded part below:

The right of the people, to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

 

[Molon Labe]

Camp David:

Your position is quite disturbing. You appear to be saying that only U.S. citizens have inalienable rights, and that our government can and should go out of its way to prohibit anyone who is not a U.S. citizen from exercising such rights. You also appear to be saying that our rights come from the Bill of Rights. Very disturbing, if true.

 

[GruntII]

Then you'll have no problem posting proof of said "gift to Jose from his creator" guarantee to keep and bear arms... I'll accept a copy, facsimile, link, or any such proof you can provide, beyond your say so.

Meanwhile I have my Constitution guaranteeing "the right to bear arms" to all citizens...

I'll wait while you hunt down that proof...

While not Molon labe I must say your understanding of the Bill of Rights is off by a half a bubble. The Bill of Rights was meant as a restriction on the central government not a granting of any rights. In fact the idea was the Bill of Rights would affirm creator endowed rights and had the Bill of Rights not been added to the constitution the majority of the states would not have ratified them if I recall my high school history correctly. Jose has a right to bear arms granted from the creator but our society has decided that for societal good(right or wrong) under certain circumstances the state can suspend certain of these rights for the common good.Under that logic as an illegal Jose is a walking talking crime in progress and there fore has no right to bear arms. Personally my belief is that Jose is an enemy insurgent and I'm all for him bearing arms. That way we can get down to playing cowboys and mexicans and get it over with.

 

[Camp David]

You appear to be saying that only U.S. citizens have inalienable rights, and that our government can and should go out of its way to prohibit anyone who is not a U.S. citizen from exercising such rights.

I am also "saying" that you've yet to post a single piece of evidence, proof, or legality in support of your earlier contention that "illegal aliens should be armed". That's pretty disturbing methinks! Have you backed off from that assertion, or just can't find any evidence to support your argument?

Let me know?