Illegal Immigration-How to fix it?

[garyk/nm]

Termites

You, there, Mr./Mrs. average American; your home has been infested with termites. They are going to destroy your home. Now, you have a choice; you can let them stay, because they are hard-working termites, they are dad-termites, mom-termites and all the little termites, just wanting something better for themselves; but the cost of doing so will be your home.
Or, you can do what any rational person would do, when the structure of their home is being destroyed, and MAKE THEM GO AWAY! Spray the outside of the house to keep new ones out, and then attack the ones already inside. If you miss any, there will be millions more. Yes, it will be expensive, but what is the alternative?


Oh, BTW, in the above referenced story about the cost of deportation, please note the name of the author: Martha MENDOZA. Couldn't be any bias there, right?

 

[vito]

Americans don't have the stomach for tough action against the poor illegals who have come for work, health care, welfare, etc and our media will continue to portray this issue as one where poor honest folks are just trying to do their best to support their families. In our schools the youth are being brainwashed to believe that as Americans we are already despoiling the earth and certainly have no right to keep others from joining in our system. I think the first and most important step is to build a real wall, as the Israelies have done successfully, then begin a national debate on how best to deal with the 12 million illegal aliens already here. A real wall, that would both stop illegals from getting here, and make those here worry about never getting home once the wall is done, might move us forward significantly on solving this problem. Plus it would provide a lot of good jobs as the wall was being built. I'm 62 and used to think that the negative changes to America would impact upon my kids and grandkids, but now I think that within my lifetime we will see the end of the USA as we have known it, replaced with a floundering, socialistic multiculturalism dominated by the same cultural prospective that made Mexico into the failure that it is.

 

[Mad Chemist]

I haven't found any mention of this so here goes.
Flame me if you will, but this is my honest opinion, grounded in fact and not prejudice.


Yup, I said it. Many of the posts in this thread are blatant racist garbage.
OK, now that I've gotten that out of the way, feel free to ignore the rest of my post and label me as a leftist.

There is ONE primary reason why millions of mexicans have uprooted their families and emmigrated to the US.
Over a century of single party, pseudo-socialist, blatantly corrupt, autocratic rule in Mexican federal government has succeeded in impoverishing the vast majority of her people while enriching a select few who sit atop the hierarchy.

Don't believe me? Ask a Mexican, or anyone who has been to Mexico for that matter.

Corruption is blatant and widespread. From the highest levels of govt. to the local police departments. Honest officials do not last long, they are either compromised, forced aside, or they quickly meet an untimely end. The Drug War complicates matters even further by its guaranty of substantial rewards for collusion with the cartels.

As far as natural resources go, Mexico is NOT a poor nation. She is rich in oil, coal, minerals, metals. and arable land. Name a natural resource and Mexico likely has it in abundance.
So why so much wide spread poverty?

For one, external investment in the Mexican economy isn't encouraged. Non-Mexican ownership of real property is nearly impossible. Refusal to grease the palms and scratch the backs of officials and criminal syndicates will likely destroy any legitimate enterprise. Basically, the risks of doing business in Mexico are higher than the rewards. There is plenty of money to be made there, for sure, but the long-standing system of graft and the more recent development of violent kidnapping gangs ensures that many economic opportunities will remain untapped. Meanwhile, the most profitable ventures remain under the control of state-owned monopolies.

Meanwhile, our own goverment has allowed this situation to continue to worsen. Our own economic policies have rewarded bad behavior by our neighbor to the south. NAFTA and the "War on Drugs" certainly have not helped. This is an entrenched, deeply rooted problem that will require real effort to solve, not just simplistic sound bites from the ignorati. There is absolutely nothing our government can do to stop the flow of illegal immigrants into the US. It's possible to slow it--at great economic expense to us taxpayers--but it would be more prudent and effective to begin addressing to causes of this mass-migration of people.:banghead:

Yes dammit they are PEOPLE, as real as you or I. They are NOT: vermin, insects, parasites, or any other sub-human label that many folks here like to assign them.

 

[Mad Chemist]

Yeah! Build a wall.
It worked for China, didn't it?
It certainly worked in Berlin. Oh wait, they were trying to keep people in.
I'm sure it will work splendidly for the Israeli's.

We should definitely do it. We can install automated minigun turrets every 400yds along it's perimeter. We'll have the most secure border in the world. The Islamofascists will be so frustrated that they can't attack us from Mexico any more that their heads will simply explode.

Just in case it wasn't obvious, the statement above is an example of sarcasm.

JH

 

[saboteur]

Jammer Six,
The minutemen did not over-inflate the number of illegals spotted. It's just that border patrol only detained one-third of the illegals. In another thread detailing a first-hand account of a THR on duty with the minutemen, it is stated that the border patrol only goes after large groups, and even then it takes them a while or they don't respond at all.

Also, I have been lead to believe that you own a business which hires illegal aliens, yes? If so, you are the root of this whole mess and of course you will defend/rationalize yourself, all the while ignoring its effects on society as a whole while you presumably benefit. You should be ashamed. I'm half-hispanic, so no racism as has been implied by Mad Chemist.

 

[Ivy Mike]

Mad Chemist,

I think you'll find there are very few people here who don't support legal immigration. The solution though is NOT to adopt an open border policy.

I'm sure if Mexico was less corrupt and catered to its citizens, they wouldn't have as much desire to leave for the USA. This really isn't in debate...why do you think citizens aren't leaving in droves for countries in Europe with higher standards of living?
I agree, Mexico needs to be fixed, but it seems to be easier to leave rather than try to revolutionize their own country.

 

[Waitone]

Yup, I said it. Many of the posts in this thread are blatant racist garbage. OK, now that I've gotten that out of the way, feel free to ignore the rest of my post and label me as a leftist.

I may be one of those racists to whom you refer. So be it. But you do point to a valid factors which this thread has pretty much avoided; pervasive corruption in Mexico. People who vote with their feet inevitably point to where the problem is and it is clear Mexico has / is a problem. The country is awash in natural resources yet it has to implement policies to tax its citizens misery. Socialism is a disgusting theology.

That said, our president's policy is to have the US serve as Mexico's social pressure relief valve. We voluntarily accept the very people who have the gumption to do something about their situation to fix it. One could quite easily make the case that the very people who now come to the US are the very people who would be inclined to eventually correct Mexico's social order through whatever means are available.

There are so many things about the whole issue of illegal immigration and the US response to it that just makes no sense. I suspect at the end of the day a number of issues are driving our policy which are not known for now. What we now know about the situation can in no way be used to reasonably explain our government's actions.

Racist signing off.

 

[Biker]

Mad Chemist...

Explain, if you would, how calling a person who exhibits parasitical behavior a parasite constitutes racism.
Biker

 

[Mad Chemist]

Saboteur, I wasn't refering to you bro. I was refering to some of the colorful euphemisms for Mexicans that have appeared periodically throughout the thread.

JH

 

[crazed_ss]

It's just really nasty language.

Ok.. well all know illegals are illegal, but they are still human. Referring to human beings as vermin, parasites, termites, etc.. That kind of talk is used to make people seem less than human. That is probably why there is currently so many people here suggesting simply gunning down illegals at the border. That kind of talk is absolutely digusting IMO.

You guys probably wont get many on your side using such language. Many Americans might be concerned with illegal immigration, but I doubt they're ready to support wholesale slaughter as some kind of final solution.

 

[saboteur]

I know Mad Chemist. I did not take offense. I'm not sensitive, I just don't want anyone to assume that all these posts are from non-hispanics. For all intents and purposes I am white (technically hispanic is an ethnicity and not a race) and even my legal Cuban-immigrant dad is 100% Americanized and assimilated. I don't think the parasite language is harsh at all. We ARE talking about behaviors. There is a legitimate fear here, and it's not simply fear of people of a different race or background.

 

[garyk/nm]

Mad Chemist, et al;
A-N-A-L-O-G-Y
Look it up.

 

[Mad Chemist]

Assigning a characteristic to a whole population based off of anecdotal evidence could be considered such.
If not, then here's a converse: I fight wildland fires durring the summer. It's extemely difficult work that the majority of the people I meet are mentally and physically incapable of performing. Out on the hill, I've had the pleasure of working with a lot of Mexicans. We have had plenty of white "lops" but I've yet to meet a Mexican "lop". All the Mexican firefighters I've worked with were top-notch pros who performed their jobs extremely well. If you called one of the members of my crew a parasite, he'd likely smile and walk away. I, on the other hand, would just drop a tree on you.

My ancestors were lousy drunk Mics and sneaky Krauts. Parasites that infected the cities of early America. At least according to the prevailing views of the time. Of course those prevailing opinions were wrong.

JH

 

[longeyes]

Americans don't have the stomach for tough action against the poor illegals who have come for work, health care, welfare, etc and our media will continue to portray this issue as one where poor honest folks are just trying to do their best to support their families. In our schools the youth are being brainwashed to believe that as Americans we are already despoiling the earth and certainly have no right to keep others from joining in our system.

Another propagandoid. You need to correct your statement to SOME Americans. Give hard-core Americans enough of a jolt of reality and you will see plenty of "stomach."

Many of the posts in this thread are blatant racist garbage.
OK, now that I've gotten that out of the way, feel free to ignore the rest of my post and label me as a leftist.

There's a difference between racial epithets or noxious analogs and talking about cultural problems as they are. I personally don't think we get anywhere by playing the "cucaracha" card, as it were.

That said, Mad Chemist, you are going to have to come to terms with the reason that bad government and corruption are rampant in Mexico. You don't want to blame the people or the "culture," well, who do you want to blame? Mexico reflects the state of the Mexican soul, just as America reflects, good and bad, where this country is right now. We need to throw a keylight on what's wrong with Mexico and why, just as we need to 'fess up to why we're losing our own country. The U.S. and Mexico, right now, are doing a toxic hat dance, and both nations need to get their act together.

 

[longeyes]

Yeah! Build a wall.
It worked for China, didn't it?
It certainly worked in Berlin. Oh wait, they were trying to keep people in.
I'm sure it will work splendidly for the Israeli's.

We should definitely do it. We can install automated minigun turrets every 400yds along it's perimeter. We'll have the most secure border in the world. The Islamofascists will be so frustrated that they can't attack us from Mexico any more that their heads will simply explode.

Just in case it wasn't obvious, the statement above is an example of sarcasm.

You're right: Walls, per se, don't work totally or forever. What works is war. And that's where we are heading if there's no restraint shown on the Mexican side. It won't matter if Congress, the President, or soccer moms don't have the stomach for it, it will happen because expropriation of a nation is about as visceral and "biological" as it gets.

From my perspective our Congress and President are strutting about like Mexican roosters doing a dictionary definition of HUBRIS. They really think they are going to get away with giving away the country and no one realizes it or is going to stop them? I beg to differ. If you listen to talk radio you know that a lot of people are up to here with this arrant nonsense and would gladly support decisive and draconian action. That action might not be limited to dealing with Mexico.

 

[garyk/nm]

Noxious?
If you'll care to re-read my little ditty, I think you'll find that there is no reference to any ethnic group or nationality. It is simply analagous to the illegal alien problem in general, and of those decrying the cost of correcting the problem. Nothing more.

 

[spartacus2002]

If you listen to talk radio you know that a lot of people are up to here with this arrant nonsense and would gladly support decisive and draconian action. That action might not be limited to dealing with Mexico.

The Senate compromisers and the President are playing with fire and have no idea how volatile a situation they are creating. The raza/aztlaners and the Americans are growing more resistant to each other as this situation progresses.

We are ratcheting several notches closer to a tipping point where Americans truly realize the politicians will sell them out for 30 pieces of silver and a bag of votes. When that time arrives, things will get ugly. We have already seen the Aztlaners calling for the (nonviolent) ethnic cleansing of the American Southwest; the response by Americans who feel pushed to the wall could be hideous.

ETA: as I said in an email to my local talk radio station...

The immigration amnesty bill compromise to in the Senate yesterday is a watershed moment in political history. The leadership of a major party, whose voting base has given them the House, the Senate, and the Presidency, has declared openly its intention to sell out its base for a bag of votes, despite its base's firm declaration that the bag contains not votes, but 30 pieces of silver.

What makes this even more amazing is that this party is the Republican party, which was born in the split of the Whig Party in the mid-1800s. Truly, history repeats itself, first as tragedy, then as farce. We are witnessing the farce of a House of Lords -- excuse me, Senate -- so out of touch with reality that they actually believe the following:

--those here illegally for only 2 years will just pack up and go home
--those here illegally for over 5 years are automatically worthy of consideration of citizenship
--the American people are willing to swallow this injustice.

Justice Brandeis made a very penetrating comment on law and government when he said the following:

“Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes the law-breaker, it breeds contempt for laws. It invites every man to become a law unto himself. The lawless government invites anarchy, to declare that in the administration of the criminal law, the end justifies the means; to declare that the government may commit crimes in order to secure the conviction of a private criminal would bring terrible retribution.”

The Senate, with the bipartisan compromise of yesterday, declared its contempt for American citizens, for those who legally immigrate here to the tune of thousands of dollars and years of wait, and for the Republican base.

I fear the longer-term consequences of the voter backlash. We're already seeing the nonviolent ethnic cleansing of Southern California. I fear the American voter, having seen how absolutely futile it is to participate in the political process, may think that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, minus the nonviolence. "Preserving our homeland" is an argument both sides can claim.

Remember during Bush the First's presidency when he went to a supermarket and was amazed by the laser scanner at the checkout register? The media played him as an out of touch feudal lord who had no clue what mere mortals face in daily life. Perhaps that wasn't so far from the truth when it comes to our Senate and President. That is the only explanation for why our Senate and President are the best government Mexico has ever had.

 

[spartacus2002]

What do you call 20 million unassimilated Mexicans in America who demand Spanish-language services, who demand the vote, and who demand the gringos GET OUT?


Answer: Colonists.

 

[garyk/nm]

We have already seen the Aztlaners calling for the (nonviolent) ethnic cleansing of the American Southwest; the response by Americans who feel pushed to the wall could be hideous.

I live in the middle of this mess, and if any Aztlaners think they are going to remove me from my home, they are in for a nasty surprise.

We are on the verge of a war for American sovereignty, and our Congresscritters are on the wrong side. Time to clean house.

 

[MadMag]

What do you call 20 million unassimilated Mexicans in America who demand Spanish-language services, who demand the vote, and who demand the gringos GET OUT?

Answer: Or maybe soldiers!

 

[Waitone]

Congress is on another two week break. Don't know about you but I intend to call each of my three reps inquiring as to any public appearances said rep has during the break. I fully intend to make them understand the seriousness of the current situation and their complicity in creating it.

 

[crazed_ss]

I fear the longer-term consequences of the voter backlash. We're already seeing the nonviolent ethnic cleansing of Southern California.

And you would know because you live here right?

Get a grip.

 

[MadMag]

Congress is on another two week break.

Yes, I am sending faxes to my Reps. Trying to make clear to them that any plan that does not (really/actually) close the border is a waste of time and money.

 

[Art Eatman]

There is much less "how to fix it" than there is squabbling and other off-topic posting.

Eleven pages is more than enough for this thread, as people are coming late to the party and repeating what has already been said.

So, if somebody wants to start over, with any new and rational ideas, fine by me.

Art