Illegal Immigration-How to fix it?

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think you guys are right.

I think the only way you turn back this tide is with tripwires, mines, booby traps, walls and patrols.

I think you should begin, immediately. Really.

Good stab at sarcasm, but I don't think anyone here sees this problem primarily resolved by force at the border, although that appears to be a necessary component of law enforcement there. No, it's illegal alien employers (hint) who should be the first target of a roll-back program, along with the prodigal excess of an out-of-control social welfare establishment.

<Accurate but personal comment removed by Art>
 
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Apologies to anybody I've offended. It's a one-time event. But this thread certainly wandered all over the back pasture.

I probably cut more than was needed, and maybe left some I shouldn't have. I didn't at all disagree with many of the posts that I cut. But way OT is still way OT.

While I'm not sure about my own Post #30, I'll weasel by saying I was questioning specific points in a reference, and speaking to the validity of the conclusions. Disagreements of the "You're wrong!" sort aren't helpful; I think we should show disagreement by giving valid and fact-based reasons.

It seems to me that anecdotal examples of facets of the problem should also include some idea of a solution.

Where there was some personal argument on the verge of developing, I gotta thank folks for restraint...

Suppertime.

Art
 
The fact that a poster or two was pretty much ignored is remarkable considering the past history of these encounters.
Biker
 
There is no fix. Republicans want it b/c it serves their business interests, and are willing to sale out the country. Only a handfull of them are willing to be serious on the border.

As for the Dems who supposedly "love the American worker" they don't care, because 10 million potential new votes make them wet in the panties alot more than protecting American labor.

We're screwed. The media isn't serious about this past wanting to not talk about gun owners and religious right "fanatics." They're focusing on this to ignore those issues from the last election which still remain in this one.

If you have a RINO? Republican (what exactly does that stand for), how do you protest? Vote for the Democrat?

Please. There has to be a serious shake up in Republican ranks. Or, the Libertarians have to change their status on illegal immigration, and then get serious (never happen).

I'm betting the Republicans will have the necessary shake up, but not before Hillary wades into office and screws the country in ways Bush wasn't capable of even thinking up.
 
L.A. Times, today - background on Bush's position

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-na-bush2apr02,1,7956670,full.story
From the Los Angeles Times
Immigrant Issues Are Personal for Bush
Associates say he has long had a comfort level with Mexicans and their culture. In a 2004 campaign video, he waved a Mexican flag.
By Peter Wallsten
Times Staff Writer

April 2, 2006

MIDLAND, Texas — Cecilia Ochoa Levine was a Mexican trying to make it in America. But when she hit upon a promising business opportunity, to make knapsacks south of the border to sell in the United States, she could not get the trade permits she needed.

And so Levine asked for help from a longtime friend in Texas, where she had been a legal resident for many years.

The friend was George W. Bush.

Within a week, Levine was on a plane to Washington for a meeting with trade officials. And soon after, she had the papers to expand her business, creating dozens of jobs at plants in El Paso and Ciudad Juarez, Mexico.

Not everyone would have been willing to use his influence to help a Mexican citizen start a company, particularly one creating jobs in Mexico as well as in the U.S. But Bush's actions of 21 years ago help explain why today, as president, he is striking an unusually nuanced tone on the emotional question of immigration policy — a stance that has placed him at odds with the conservative Republicans who have long formed the base of his political support.

"Here was this single mother, Mexican, no money, starting a tiny little business," recalled Levine. She phoned Bush because his father was then vice president and "he was willing to use his connections in Washington to help me out. He understood it would mean jobs for poor people."

Long before the immigration fight that is rattling the nation, Bush developed a picture of immigration from his life in Midland, where he knew Levine and other Mexican immigrants personally and came to see both sides of the border as part of the same universe.

A three-hour drive from Mexico, Midland did not have the feel of such border cities as El Paso, but it saw a wave of Mexican immigration long before many other communities across the South and the West. It is where Bush spent many of his childhood years and where he later returned to start an oil exploration business.

What Bush learned in Midland shaped his ability to appeal to Latino voters and foreshadowed what could be one of his most important legacies: helping the Republican Party compete for the nation's fast-growing political constituency.

And it is having an impact now as Congress debates an overhaul of immigration law.

Conservatives are calling for tough enforcement measures to secure the U.S.-Mexico border and to penalize employers who hire illegal immigrants. Some are even calling for a massive fence to separate the two countries.

But Bush has carved out a more moderate approach. He sides with conservatives by calling for strict border enforcement and opposing what they call amnesty for millions of undocumented immigrants. Still, he supports a guest-worker program that would match foreigners with U.S. businesses and, as he said Friday, "bring people out of the shadows of American society so they don't have to fear the life they live."

Longtime residents of Midland say that Bush returned to the city of his childhood as the oil boom of the 1970s had begun to ebb, salaries were dropping and the workforce in the oil fields was shifting from white to Latino. Mexican immigrants were increasingly filling hard-labor jobs as drill operators and roughnecks.

Today, the city is more than 40% Latino.

"I don't think a lot of people understand what Midland was going through back then," said Jose Cuevas, who as a Midland newcomer in 1979 opened JumBurrito, a now-thriving chain of Mexican fast-food restaurants.

"In that kind of environment, everyone's young, everyone's excited. And if you've got your own oil company, when you go out where they're drilling, the population was beginning to be Hispanic. You'd see they were hard-working, they'd be out there with their Mexican lunches made at home, and you'd be shoulder to shoulder with them learning how family oriented they are."

There is no indication that Bush knowingly employed illegal immigrants at his oil company. Several people who worked directly with him said that he was consumed with hiring geologists and geophysicists to help find oil, and that rig workers were generally hired by subcontractors.

But friends and associates took early note of what they said was Bush's unusual comfort level with Mexican culture. He and Laura, hankering for good Mexican food, stopped by regularly at Cecilia Ochoa Levine's house for homemade flour tortillas, steak fajitas and other specialties. Levine's husband at the time was a business partner of Bush's.

"I made my own tortillas. I made him ceviche," said Levine, who had come to the U.S. as a student in the 1960s and eventually married an American. "He would ride his bike over. He felt very comfortable in my home."

After Levine divorced her husband and moved to El Paso, she kept in touch with the Bushes. And when a potential business partner offered to include her in a plan to produce knapsacks, using workers on both sides of the border, she asked Bush for help.

Levine's ex-husband, Larry Wollschlager, placed the first business call to Bush, who had recently moved to Washington to begin working on his father's presidential campaign. "He said, 'I can only introduce you to the appropriate parties. I can't pull strings,' " Wollschlager recalled.

Levine spoke further with Bush, and, within a week, secured her meeting at the Commerce Department.

"I was not a political person," she said. "I had no money to contribute to his father's campaign or anything. It all came from his understanding of what the border is, and I think he understands the border." Today, Levine's business is thriving and she is a U.S. citizen.



After Bush's father won the 1988 campaign for president, Bush moved to Dallas and assembled a group that bought the Texas Rangers baseball team.

He spoke often with some of the team's Latino players, such as Cuban-born Rafael Palmeiro. But perhaps more important, he hired as his personal assistant and driver Israel Hernandez, a University of Texas graduate raised in a border town.

For more than a year, Bush and Hernandez drove across the state, ostensibly promoting the Rangers but at the same time planting the early seeds of Bush's 1994 candidacy for governor.

"We would be in the car and he would practice his Spanish," said Hernandez, who continued working for Bush and later at the White House, under political strategist Karl Rove, guiding Latino outreach.

As he began to campaign formally, Bush made it a point to appear in the border towns and neighborhoods that had voted overwhelmingly for President Clinton, and which were expected to prove crucial in reelecting Gov. Ann Richards. He warmed his audiences with emotional speeches describing Latinos' ability to overcome obstacles and their ambitions to pursue the American dream.

Some fellow conservatives were surprised to hear of his seemingly liberal views when it came to the border. Ernest Angelo, a petroleum engineer and mayor of Midland during the 1970s boom, brought up the issue when he encountered Bush at a political event, telling the future governor that he was concerned about the open border. Angelo suggested ending bilingual education in the U.S. to force greater assimilation.

But Bush didn't agree. The two debated the issue for half an hour.

"He told me that was the wrong thing to do," Angelo recalled. "I saw right then that he had a very deep-seated feeling that the immigration situation was beneficial to the country."



After Bush was elected governor in 1994, it did not take long for his views on Hispanics and on immigration to mark him as different than many Republican colleagues.

In California, then-Gov. Pete Wilson championed Proposition 187 to deny public services to illegal immigrants. The initiative passed overwhelmingly amid rising public anger over the influx of Mexicans seeking jobs on farms and in other industries. The issue was credited with helping Wilson secure a resounding reelection, which put him in a prime spot to compete for the GOP presidential nomination.

But a scene that unfolded at a governors conference in Williamsburg, Va., left many political leaders stunned. Rather than applaud Wilson's support of Proposition 187 as a deft move, Bush told Wilson to his face — and in front of other governors — that it was a disaster.

"He really minced no words," recalled former Michigan Gov. John Engler, who witnessed the exchange. "He told Wilson, 'You're wrong,' and that it was … a catastrophic position. He was very clear. He felt that Wilson had made the issue one where it had become an anti-Hispanic issue rather than a solution to illegal immigration."

Bush's willingness as a rookie governor to confront Wilson "made a very powerful impression and an early impression on other governors," Engler said.

The exchange was not covered by the media, and aides do not recall the details — but Engler and Wilson remember it clearly. "I was disappointed," Wilson said in a recent interview.

The then-Texas governor's careful attention to the immigration issue did not stop with his election. As the 1996 presidential race began to unfold, Bush openly challenged Pat Buchanan, who was campaigning on an anti-immigration, anti-trade platform.

"No Cheap Shots at Mexico, Please," was the headline of an August 1995 New York Times op-ed written by Bush. He cautioned that campaign "discussion on immigration and Mexico can turn ugly and destructive very quickly."

"I don't want anybody, any race, to be used as a political issue," Bush said at a news conference, timed to answer a Buchanan appearance in Texas.

By 1998, Bush proved that a Republican could put the Latino vote in play, winning about 50% of that constituency in Texas as he was reelected governor by a landslide. Among his supporters was Adela Gonzalez, who with about a dozen friends formed the group Amigas de Bush. A housekeeper in El Paso, Gonzalez said she became a U.S. citizen about 10 years ago.

As governor, Bush rarely faced substantive policy questions related to immigration. But one issue showed that, despite his personal ties to Latinos and immigrants, he also viewed immigration through the lens of politics.

Over the objections of some conservatives, the Texas Legislature restored healthcare benefits to thousands of children of noncitizens who were to be cut off after changes to federal welfare law.

The measure reached Bush's desk as he was planning his 2000 campaign for president and facing a competitive primary. Bush viewed the legislation with caution, hedging until the last minute on whether he would sign.

Texas state Rep. Garnet Coleman, the Houston Democrat who sponsored the provision, recalled a 1999 conversation in which Bush's lobbyist acknowledged the political pressure Bush was feeling from Buchanan, who was running again for president and focusing on security at the border.

"He said, 'We can't let Pat Buchanan outdo us on the right,' " Coleman said. "They were very afraid of Buchanan. They didn't want to have a record that was too to the middle, because it would hurt them in the primaries.

"I thought … 'Do we have to screw up Texas for that?' " Coleman said.

In the end, Bush signed the legislation.

Coleman credits Bush for taking on Wilson on Proposition 187, but says Bush's stance today seems more about keeping low-wage labor available to industry. "I think he's doing it out of interest in keeping cost of production low for his friends," he said. "It's pure economics."



Bush went on to make personalized outreach to Latinos a trademark of both of his presidential campaigns. And it paid dividends with voters who had long leaned Democratic.

Bush won 40% of Latinos in 2004 — compared with the 21% GOP presidential nominee Bob Dole won in 1996, after the passage of Proposition 187.

During the 2000 election, Bush previewed a campaign video from ad-maker Lionel Sosa that used emotion-laden themes to woo Latinos.

As he watched, Sosa recalled, Bush's face lighted up. "How much do you need for this?" Bush asked as the two men sat with Rove in the governor's mansion in Texas, Sosa said.

Sosa replied that it would take $3 million. According to the ad-maker, Bush then turned to Rove, saying: "Give him five."

Four years later, Sosa produced a variation of that video for the 2004 campaign that was mailed to Latino voters across the country.

The video includes images that would probably rile those who today are calling for the most restrictive immigration laws. At one point, Bush is shown waving a Mexican flag. The footage was shot, Sosa said, during a Mexican Independence Day parade in San Antonio in 1998, when Bush was running for reelection as governor.

The five-minute video, narrated by Bush, opens with an image of him fishing on his property near Crawford, Texas, as he essentially described millions of Americans who populate his home state as the true foreigners in someone else's native land.

"About 15 years before the Civil War, much of the American West was northern Mexico," Bush says in the video. "The people who lived there weren't called Latinos or Hispanics. They were Mexican citizens, until all that land became part of the United States.

"After that, many of them were treated as foreigners in their own land," Bush adds.

He says the "Latino spirit" was fueled by "strong conservative values" of family, a strong work ethic, faith in God, patriotism and personal responsibility. "These values are my values," Bush says. "I live by them, and I lead by them."

As Bush speaks in the video, the background music — a Latin beat — grows louder. The president is pictured waving the Mexican flag, hugging a Latino woman, and then holding a Latino baby.

Political strategists in both parties said the video illustrated how Bush, unlike other Republicans, had forged a personal relationship with Latino voters largely on his ability to convey empathy and invite them into his party.

The appeal is most effective with those newer immigrants who maintained closer ties to home, a group that by 2004 made up nearly half of the Latino vote across the country. "These are people who want to belong here," said Joe Garcia, a strategist for the New Democrat Network, a centrist Democratic group. "The biggest compliment is to tell these folks, 'You're one of us.' "

That was the way Cecilia Ochoa Levine felt when she phoned Bush in 1985.

"He was concerned about how my family was doing," she said.

Now, Levine runs her company, MFI International Manufacturing, with her husband, employing hundreds of people in plants in El Paso and across the border in Juarez.

She said Bush understood the nature of border cities in Texas, where their Mexican counterparts are essentially pieces of the same community. Now, Levine said, she can drive from her home in El Paso to her plant in Juarez in half the time it takes her to get from home to the plant in El Paso.

"It's not like we're two communities. We're one region," she said. "People in other places don't realize that."

*

Times staff writer Tom Hamburger contributed to this report.
 
To the point of the original question.

I am normally positive, but things look pretty bad. The only thing worse than the Republican plan is the Democratic plan. If there was ever a time for an independent candidate…. now is the time.

Bush says as part of the new plan that the border will be sealed. That will never happen. Just talk.

So, the only solution I see is a strong independent. I am prepared to vote independent even at the risk of losing to the Dem or Republicans.
 
Core part of a post in my blog-

Step one is building of a "boarder zone". This has a few aspects. One involves sealing it off at all points other then approved ones. This is done via a combination of wall, fence, and patrol by US military, national guard or army this requires more in depth planning to the area and what is available. The wall and fence sets up physical barriers and the patrols provide eyes and ears. Now I am not talking current patrols by the great guys and gals at boarder patrol, I am talking a combination of actual patrolling and watch towers. Keeping a manned presence with eyes on all but the most remote least active areas of the boarder, and even those with irregularly scheduled random patrols. See in the past people were coming overseas and didn't have a choice but to go to an immigration center due to the ocean. Now that isn't the case so we need to create an "ocean" which forces them to go through proper channels. Now I am not a "seal them out we are full" guy, I am getting to that part.

Step to involves setting up a network of Ellis Island style immigration centers. In the past it took a few days to a few weeks to be processed at numbers higher then the current system handles. Currently the visa system means you are waiting a few months to a few years. Immigration centers fix this and other problems. Centers would be placed along the boarder in some of the major towns making it easy for immigrants to get to and once there the process would be simple. Centers would also be set up in larger cities such as NYC which sees larger numbers of immigrants coming from overseas. You start by checking in with your name and country of origin, from there you are housed at the center for the duration of the process which will include a criminal background check, physical check for illness, as well as basically just getting you processed with information on where you plan to set yourself up what you plan to do etc. Those who fail the background check are booted. Not people with parking tickets, but violent criminals from their old country or those even suspected in gang activity, we do not need more criminals we have enough home grown ones. If you fail the physical you are treated in the center especially if you have something like TB or some other contagious disease that is a public health risk. Once you have passed your checks and are processed you are issued a temporary immigrant ID number and card similar to a drivers license. This gives you an ID and the number that acts in place of a citizens social security number. The entire process should take anywhere from a few days if all is well to a week or two if there is a glitch such as a health risk from disease or a slow check. This costs a small fee which once you get a job will be deducted over the coarse of a year or so depending on the fee right along with their taxes. This keeps the cost of running the center down and the paying with their taxes gradually takes away the need for having money up front.

Next and final part of my plan is enforcement. Once the program and centers are up and running all illegal's already in the country as given a grace period to report to a center for processing. After that any illegal found in country will be considered to be here for less then desirable reasons and when found kicked out. No hearing, no appeals, no catch and release, do not pass go do not collect 200 dollars you get put on a bus taken across the boarder and kicked out. Those caught crossing the boarder at non-entry points get kicked out to and if caught again are sent to a work farm to pay the cost of shipping them back yet again. With the easy process of centers I detailed above if you can't do it legally then there is reason enough to believe you are up to no good. Now comes enforcement on those who have come here legally. Once here you have a certain amount of time to get yourself working. Once you get a job and place to stay you mail in a form with this information to the nearest immigration center and are then sent a permanent card with your new address on it. In order to keep track of immigrants in country if you move they will be required to get an updated card. New job wont require a new card since it isn't listed on your card and would hit the system automatically when they start a new job and give this number. Any immigrant who does not find a job in a set amount of time has an order of deportation issued and if found is arrested to be deported. This they can have an appeal for once collected to explain why they haven't found work. This keeps deadbeats and welfare hunters out, just like criminals we have enough home grown ones without letting more in. As a last part of this any employer employing illegal's, when he had no reasonable reason to not know such as presented a fake immigrant id, and this penalty is STIFF. Stiff enough to make it very counter productive and costly to risk it, unlike today.
 
I am normally positive, but things look pretty bad. The only thing worse than the Republican plan is the Democratic plan. If there was ever a time for an independent candidate…. now is the time.

Bush says as part of the new plan that the border will be sealed. That will never happen. Just talk.

So, the only solution I see is a strong independent. I am prepared to vote independent even at the risk of losing to the Dem or Republicans.

The likelihood is that a bad bill is going to be passed. Prepare to be slapped across the face. We the People will have two years to offer a response: find new candidates to support, initiate a new party or parties or transform an existing one. I think by '08 everyone will be aware that America As We Knew It is at stake and that we can't fool around any more or just glide along waiting for the next hot consumer item to titillate us. I'm not even sure there will be an '08 Election--but people call me "apocalyptic." Maybe so, but history is full of apocalyptic, "low-probability" events. God likes surprises.
 
Bush may have strong personal ties and proclivities toward Mexico and it is largely irrelevant. He is the chief executive of the Republic of the United States, not a plantation owner. He is not free to do as he wishes. He is free to do as a duly elected legislature permits him to do. Compassion as a reason for policy is dangerous. I simply refuse to believe he is as big an idiot as he is appearing to be. There simply has to be a quid quo pro he working. I suspect it has to do with oil but I have been wrong before in trying to explain his actions.

I hope his party is aware of how dangerous the current situation it to its future fortunes as the majority party. He personally was bitch-slapped of the Miers nomination. Congress received the same treatment and more over the Ports Fiasco. I think he is deluded if he thinks he or republicans will escape immigration reform without welts. Time will tell how deluded he and congress is.
 
There simply has to be a quid quo pro he working. I suspect it has to do with oil but I have been wrong before in trying to explain his actions. - Waitone

Job one is maintaining optimism on Wall Street. Just about any policy decision traces to that ultimate concern. I am glad it is done that way and will vote accordingly. It's called conservative. Everyone's savings depend upon it.
 
[I have read all the posts in this thread..the long windedness of some only reflects their passion of the subject. we are at war with mexico...no that's not right..-mexico is at war with us..V.Foxx and company are sapping us of our natural resources..our educational system...our health industry...our jobs...we spend billions defending iraqui/afghani people.. but not ourselves the mexicans will win this war without hardly firing a shot...
[/LIST][/B] The economic impact by employers has been discussed.but what about the Catholic church which has a very large hispanic community worldwide and condones the harboring of illegal criminals...they readily accept the donations from thier flock, no matter how ill paid they are..yes the church as business is riding on the back of the faithful..the more illegals ..the more donations to keep them from going to hell...and the money?.it pays for the sins of pedophile priests...JUST SOME THOUGHTS... Some of us do believe that an armed response at the border is the way,,it is national security...Make no mistake this is a War..
 
I simply refuse to believe he is as big an idiot as he is appearing to be.

You know, sometimes life is exactly as it appears to be. Sometimes you really are just getting screwed over. Does it matter whether Bush flies the flag of Commerce or Compassion, whether he's born-again or bought-and-sold? He's done his damnedest to dismantle America in the five years he's had in office, out-Clintoning in just about everything. The Bush family seems to like the concept of the benignant plantation. I think Bush means exactly what he says, no more, no less.
 
Some of us do believe that an armed response at the border is the way,,it is national security...Make no mistake this is a War..

The soccer moms run America. They have for a long time. We have the America they wanted. Too bad the nuclear family, suburbia, and the shopping-mad middle class are going to be ephemera.
 
quid pro quo

The quid pro quo is already known: cheap labor and cheap votes. Too bad it only benefits the Usual Suspects, huh? We keep staring the Screw-Job in the face and have trouble accepting it. We're like a bunch of abused wives shellshocked from our last beating.

If you're waiting for $20 oil from Pemex, I'd suggest calling in the Marines--if they'll listen. I think they obey the Few also.
 
Hi All-

The more I was thinking about the dual safety fence with minefield arrangement I outlined in post# 46, the more I thought that this would be a fantastic and absolutely cost-effective deterrent to prevent illegal border crossings.

The simple fact-of-the-matter is that we could then have an older and wiser generation of Mexican residents talking sense into their children and grandchildren who might be contemplating this dangerous and illegal voyage. No normal parent wishes to predecease their children, so if a few foolhardy souls lost their lives...word would travel quickly to all corners of the country and healthy societal pressures would certainly build against even considering such a dangerous trip.

Even the most dauntless of badasses gives pause when his very mother is pleading for something...with the exception of Paulie Walnuts.

~ Blue Jays ~
 
Job one is maintaining optimism on Wall Street. Just about any policy decision traces to that ultimate concern. I am glad it is done that way and will vote accordingly. It's called conservative. Everyone's savings depend upon it.

I am speechless.

Okay, I feel better now.

You cannot base a robust economy and a strong nation upon illusions. The economic health of this country should lie upon high productivity, fiscal responsibility, and advanced technologies, rather than how much a bunch of speculators rotate pieces of paper among themselves. To think otherwise is to invite another 1929, but on a far far worse scale.

If pragmatic real-world decisions are to be based on maintaining illusions, then we as a country deserve all the pain we set ourselves up to get. Looking at the mounting national debt, I must say the party will soon be over. Oh, you can keep all the papers you want; the question is how much you would be able to buy with them...
 
I think the only way you turn back this tide is with tripwires, mines, booby traps, walls and patrols.

What is your solution to the tide problem? What makes you immune to its ill effects? Gloat all you like - if what you want comes to pass, in twenty years you'll be weeping. :rolleyes:
 
Hi longeyes-

That is the beauty of the plan...who wants to be digging tunnels near minefields that could blow a person to smithereens? We would witness a flurry of unfortunate fatalities among the illegal invaders testing our mettle, and then the human trafficking would slow to a virtual trickle.

~ Blue Jays ~
 
A mine field is untenable, economically, politically, and practically.

Say you need 1 mine per square meter.

1000 km x 100 meters x 1 mine per sq meter = 100,000,000 mines

Even if you mobilize 1,000 sappers and each plants 100 mines per day, you will need 3 years to complete!

Such a field can be trivially defeated by a bulldozer pushing a simple contraption.

Also, as longeyes pointed out, this country is disproportionately run by soccer moms that will weep a river for the poor darlings getting blown up.

What do the illegals care anyway? They already risk death in the desert or by a coyote crook. What is a chance in a minefield in addition?

What has to be done is stick the employers in prison here and catch and fine the illegals heavily. No jobs, no services, no socialist handouts mean illegals stay at home and make a bonfire under Don Vincente's rump.
 
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