illegal to buy guns "not for personal use"

[FNFiveSeven]

Let's say that I wanted to go out and purchase somewhere between 100 and 1000 SKS rifles. I have been informed such a purchase would not be allowed due to the fact that the rifles are obviously not intended for "personal use." Are there any federal laws that say you must be purchasing the guns for personal use, or is this some state issue (the state in question is California and North Carolina). Hell, even if I intended to turn around and sell them to other people, the transaction would still be legal so long as each transaction went through an FFL, right?

 

[cslinger]

If you are buying them for the purpose of reselling them then you are in the business of selling firearms and therefore will be required to have a FFL.

If you simply want 1000 personal SKS's I don't see the problem. Although my guess is you will have to talk to a BATFE agent about it.

Now I am not saying this is BS but that is the way it is.

Chris

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

i would imagine these would be the issues:

1. a licensed firearms dealer filling out a single 4473 for this many weapons would probably face an immediate inspection by ATF. he may further face revocation of his FFL for not exercising sound judgment when selling this many firearms to a single buyer. yes, ATF does rely heavily on the judgment of the dealer, since they aren't there to monitor every transaction. i can tell you that i'd never consider being a transfer dealer for this deal since i wouldn't want the ATF scrutiny.

2. the individual who purchased this many rifles would probably be paid a visit by the ATF, most likely, for being "engaged in the business" and needing an FFL.

3. the importer or dealer who sold this many rifles to one specific individual would probably also have to answer to the FFL as well.

not too many dealers want to hang their license on this deal.

 

[Third_Rail]

How would someone go about buying a large store of weapons of the same type for personal use, then?

 

[JohnKSa]

How would someone go about buying a large store of weapons of the same type for personal use, then?

What's a "large store", why do they have to be identical, and why do you need them so fast that you can't afford to buy them a few at a time?

You might as well think up answers now--these are the answers the dealer and then the BATF will be asking.

 

[jeremywills]

Ive got it

He lives in a thousand room Mansion and wants to have one handy in every room for just in case

Sorry, I could not resist, I myself would like to know what the purpose of a 100 rifles all at once on one bill of sale is useful for other than for resale

 

[jefnvk]

That number of the same guns is gonna send up signals that there may be unauthorized dealing going on.

Why not get a C&R, and then try to order 100 SKS's from someone? Probably go over a little easier, and you aren't risking someone else's FFL if you are determined to be engaged in the business without a license.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

There is nothing that would prevent you from buying that many rifles in one shot, but you will get a visit from ATF. First, the dealer has to send in a form on your "multiple" gun purchases, so they will know right away.

It is really what you do with the rifles after you take possession. If you wait a few weeks and then start selling them at a greater price, ATF will nail you for dealing without a license. If you start passing them out as gifts to friends and relatives, there isn't much they can do.

Hell, even if I intended to turn around and sell them to other people, the transaction would still be legal so long as each transaction went through an FFL, right?

Not really. ATF could make the claim you were acting as a wholesaler, in which capacity you would still need a FFL.

Bottom line, if you are going to make money by resaling firearms, get an FFL.

 

[waterhouse]

First, the dealer has to send in a form on your "multiple" gun purchases, so they will know right away.

not if they are long guns. The paperwork is only for multiple handgun buys.

That being said, I wouldn't transfer a 100 guns at once either way.

 

[jnojr]

Why not get a C&R, and then try to order 100 SKS's from someone?

Because a C&R is a license to collect, not deal, and you'd run into the same problems... 100 identical rifles isn't a "collection", and looks mighty suspicious to the Powers That Be.

 

[JohnKSa]

looks mighty suspicious to the Powers That Be

Let's just be straight-up honest.

It doesn't LOOK suspicious, it IS suspicious.

If you want to deal, get a license. If you don't want to get a license then don't try to deal.

 

[newfalguy101]

If you want to deal, get a license. If you don't want to get a license then don't try to deal.

AGREED

 

[FNFiveSeven]

If you wait a few weeks and then start selling them at a greater price, ATF will nail you for dealing without a license.

Are you sure about this? I contacted the ATF a little while ago and they said that as long as you sell each one through an FFL it's just fine. Is there a regulation somewhere that states what constitutes "dealing without a license"? The hypothetic question I posed to them was about buying several of a commerative edition pistol, solely for the purpose of reselling later at a higher price. Why would this be illegal?

If you want to deal, get a license.

This is easier said than done. Besides, every one is being sold through a licensed dealer, the dealer has the license.

I'm sure lots of people did something similar to this before the AWB, and they probably made a lot of money doing it. Are they all busted now?

 

[Jack T.]

I was at an auction recently where a non-FFL bought 50+ Jennings handguns.

The folks running the auction weren't real happy with filling out that many yellow pages. . .but he bought them.

I think he gave something like $50 each for them.

 

[The Drew]

What the ATF DOESN'T want is someone buying this many rifles, then selling them off to people of questionable background... (I.E. straw purchasing) I think this is why you'd get a visit from the ATF, and why you'd most certainly better follow the rules following the transaction, cause they'll be watching you...

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Are you sure about this? I contacted the ATF a little while ago and they said that as long as you sell each one through an FFL it's just fine. Is there a regulation somewhere that states what constitutes "dealing without a license"? The hypothetic question I posed to them was about buying several of a commerative edition pistol, solely for the purpose of reselling later at a higher price. Why would this be illegal?



This is easier said than done. Besides, every one is being sold through a licensed dealer, the dealer has the license.

I'm sure lots of people did something similar to this before the AWB, and they probably made a lot of money doing it. Are they all busted now?

If you are selling them at a profit, then YOU are conducting business trading in firearms. My understanding is that the BATFE requires YOU to have a license. If someone at BATFE tells you otherwise, then I suggest you get it in writing.

Aside from that, since reselling at a profit is conducting a commercial business irrespective of BATFE approval, I can think of a host of other regulations that would apply, such as needing zoning approval, needing a state sales tax number, perhaps needing a local license or permit to sell firearms, ...

 

[JohnKSa]

The hypothetic question I posed to them was about buying several of a commerative edition pistol, solely for the purpose of reselling later at a higher price.

I suspect that you know why it would be considered illegal. Otherwise you would have asked them about buying up to 1,000 identical rifles like you asked us...

If ALL your transactions go through an FFL (buying AND selling) then you're good to go. But the problem with this is that you're going to have to pay transfer fees in both directions. That's going to eat into your profit and make it hard to compete with real dealers who don't have to pay any transfer fees.

You may also have a problem getting an FFL to handle a bunch of transactions once it becomes apparent that you're actually competing with him for business.

 

[Third_Rail]

Parts compatibility, SHTF, gifts, etc. - milsurps sure aren't getting cheaper. I just find it odd that there seems to be a limit on the "okay" number of guns to buy at once, or the type. If I'm not reselling them, what does it matter?

 

[FNFiveSeven]

What the ATF DOESN'T want is someone buying this many rifles, then selling them off to people of questionable background... (I.E. straw purchasing)

Right, that's what I figured. They don't want straw purchases, but that's never going to be an issue, I've never transferred any firearm, rifle or pistol, without going through a dealer.

If ALL your transactions go through an FFL (buying AND selling) then you're good to go.

That's what I thought, but I'm trying to be sure. Whether or not I can make any money is really my problem, so long as everything goes through a dealer (both ways), I figured I would be fine. But according to "Hawkmoon" :

If you are selling them at a profit, then YOU are conducting business trading in firearms. My understanding is that the BATFE requires YOU to have a license. If someone at BATFE tells you otherwise, then I suggest you get it in writing.

Aside from that, since reselling at a profit is conducting a commercial business irrespective of BATFE approval, I can think of a host of other regulations that would apply, such as needing zoning approval, needing a state sales tax number, perhaps needing a local license or permit to sell firearms, ...

You can't both be right. I suppose, in a way, all purchases where the purchase is expected to increase in value (artwork, cars, etc...) could be considered a "commercial business". What's the line in the sand regarding this... is it where the actual transfers take place?

 

[jefnvk]

If I'm not reselling them, what does it matter?

No problem AFAIK, just the original question made it sem like he was purchasing for the purpose of reselling.

Someone may still want a talk though, to clear up your intentions.

 

[ElTacoGrande]

It's perfectly legal to do what you describe, it's just highly suspicious and would draw attention to both the FFL and to you. If I were an FFL and I were approached on something like that, my decision would work like this:

1. Is it worth it for me to do this? Is it worth it for me to even spend the time looking into the BATF questions? Does this customer really have money? Is this transaction going to go through? How much will I make? Realisticly I would need to get a non-refundable deposit as payment for even considering it, to make it worth my time in case it doesn't go through for any reason. That's BEFORE I start talking to the BATF or to importers.
2. What is the purpose of this purchase? If it's for a shooting school, fine. If it's an investment, fine. If it's just an eccentric desire to have 1000 rifles, fine. I would need to have some explanation.
3. Next call would be to my lawyer. Every FFL should have a lawyer to give advice about things. Ask for input: what documentation would I need? My lawyer fees would come out of the deposit I got in 1 above.
4. Next I (perhaps with my lawyer helping me) would call up the BATF and explain the situation. I'm pretty sure they have a help line for FFLs to call and ask questions. Ideally this would result in a letter from them.
5. At this point I would have documenation from the buyer, an opinion letter from my lawyer, and an opinion from the BATF. Then the sale could go through.

That's how I would do it. Real FFLs have tons of people just wasting their time all day long, asking to do things which are illegal, asking about stupid things, looking at guns they can't / won't buy, etc, which is why real FFLs are impatient and unhelpful and unwilling to do transactions which are unusual, even if they are legal. This type of request would raise boondoggle alerts with any real FFL.

 

[JohnKSa]

blackrazor,

I should have clarified my response. If you always conduct both purchases and sales through FFLs I think you won't go to jail. I think it's safe to say that you're going to be hassled by the BATF--maybe even to the point of having guns confiscated and prosecution threatened.

This (getting an FFL) is easier said than done.

If you really want to deal and can't get an FFL, you might want to look into finding a partner who can get an FFL. If there's one thing you should have taken from this thread it's that you're going to cause yourself a lot of problems if you start dealing firearms without an FFL.

BTW, if you really CAN'T get an FFL then whatever issue makes that true is certainly going to come up when the BATF starts investigating you.

You posted here for advice. You've gotten some good advice. I hope you make a wise decision.

 

[eastwood44mag]

If I had a license, I wouldn't be willing to transfer 100 guns at one time to anyone, regardless of whether or not they had a license (too much writing and BS to tend to).

That being said, I'd like to see what would happen if someone ordered 100 rifles, and never shot any of them--just kept them in a display case indefinitely.

 

[ArmedBear]

The BATFE would probably want to ask questions if you bought 10, to say nothing of 100. It would, however, be easier to answer said questions.

They would probably tell you to get a C&R (casually referred to as a "collector's license" -- meaning that you have informed them that it is your intention to collect a large number of firearms, and you take responsibility for the transactions) so that next time they won't bother you.

Remember, the ATF is as touchy as anyone about terrorism -- more so, really, since they deal with weapons and explosives. If there were an Al Qaeda cell that didn't already have AKM's out the wazoo, and they wanted to terrorize a city, 100 SKS's would do the trick for cheap.

Whatever I feel about the ATF, the AG, et al., I have to remind myself that the ATF is really just doing its job by looking into such transactions. And a gun dealer doesn't want a records audit. If nothing else, it takes time and is a PITA, and in business, time is money.

 

[scout26]

Well Carp !!

This was my plan after hitting the lottery.

Step 1. Have contractor dig/build/install "Gun Room" in Basement.
Step 2. Go to Gun Shop and make owners Day/Week/Month/Year, by ordering "One of everything and two of certain things" (got to get some things for Mrs Scout and the kiddies.)
Step 3. Be sure to ask for volume and cash discount(s).
Step 4. Hire a couple guys to work at the reloading bench(es).