I'm wondering how widespread this line of thought is?

[Old Dog]

I have to be honest and say that I am now wondering about this police officer's real mindset as well as his skill-set. He loses his own handgun to an assailant and takes a beating. Only afterward does he say that he was thinking about how it'd look in the media if he fired on his attacker.

Does that play better in the media -- and to his bosses and the city council -- than admitting publicly that his situational awareness lapsed, he got too close to a subject, took a sucker punch and then couldn't retain his gun and took a beating, either through lack of fitness, physical abilities or poor training?

I don't know about his department's policy, but mine is pretty clear that if your adversary goes after your gun, you've just escalated to a lethal force situation. I'm pretty sure Mas Ayoob would concur that a solid defense could be made had the officer been forced to shoot the subject if he regained control of his handgun.

 

[mgkdrgn]

An Alabama police detective who was beaten with his own gun says he didn't shoot his attacker because he was afraid of the media backlash.

This individual needs to find another line of work.

 

[Old Dog]

Well, you'd probably be dismayed then at the type of recruit most police departments are screening for these days ...

When we have to have a class on "micro-aggressions" and "trigger (not gun triggers) words and phrases" in annual in-service, you just figure the apocalypse is near ...

 

[strambo]

...

I don't know about his department's policy, but mine is pretty clear that if your adversary goes after your gun, you've just escalated to a lethal force situation. I'm pretty sure Mas Ayoob would concur that a solid defense could be made had the officer been forced to shoot the subject if he regained control of his handgun.

So? Michael Brown went for officer Wilson's gun and look how that turned out for officer Wilson.

There is a wide gulf between use of force policy and common sense officer self-defense, and what can happen in the media (destroying your life no matter how it plays out), if you shoot and kill a black man for any reason while being white (or even sorta-white like Zimmerman).

 

[Old Dog]

The point is, Strambo, in the heat of what may be mortal combat, are you thinking about bad press and losing your job or are you fighting for your life?

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

This individual needs to find another line of work.

I saw this on Facebook prior to this and that was my exact thought. The other thing I thought was, If this man had time to consciously think, "Oh lord, I'd better not shoot this person, Because Ill lose my job." It feels like he may have had more time and options.

Sounds to me like he was bested, and that was his spin to his buddies. Either way I don't think this person is well suited for police work.

Also just another example of why all police all need body cameras all the time. If it were that clear cut, use of force would be easily proven.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Not to sound like an old fart, but sometimes I really long for the good old days of rubber hoses or a bag of oranges.

 

[Old Dog]

Also just another example of why all police all need body cameras all the time. If it were that clear cut, use of force would be easily proven.

Well, gosh, nice thought, but ... after reviewing a hundred or so videos in use of force investigations, you'll quickly find out that whatever is captured on the video doesn't always speak to what's going through the minds of the participants.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Ayoobs recent pro arms podcast in July or Aug 2015 had a police officer who was in a gunfight (last 5 years) and had hit the bad guy in both lungs, heart, and a kidney plus shots in the extremities and the bad guy continued. The officer needed to go for a head shot to stop the threat. Worth listening to. If I recall, there were no drugs or alcohol in the bad guys system.

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

Well, gosh, nice thought, but ... after reviewing a hundred or so videos in use of force investigations, you'll quickly find out that whatever is captured on the video doesn't always speak to what's going through the minds of the participants.

Spoken like a true man in blue. At least its something. And truly it doesn't matter what is in the minds. Its what is presented. Non biased.

 

[Evil-Twin]

All this hesitation, and uncertainty falling heavily on our police officers is the product of the Cancer called " Political correctness ".... Are there bad cops? sure, just like there are bad doctors, lawyers, teachers and priests, etc.

 

[Ed Ames]

To answer the OP, it's definitely creeping into the way business is done on the street. We remind our officers every day that every person out there has a camera and every officer's actions will most likely be recorded.

I don't know many guys who would take a beating like that officer did, but it's probably foolish to believe that there aren't officers out there now whose mindsets aren't even a little affected by all the negative and highly publicized events over the past few years.

"Creeping" isn't fast enough. Speed it up.

Interesting article:
"... law enforcement officers need the cooperation of the communities they patrol in order to do their jobs effectively. In the early stages of the [Iraq] war, the U.S. military overlooked that reality as well. Leaders defined success as increasing military hold on geographic terrain, while the human terrain was the real battle. For example, when our platoon entered Iraq’s volatile Diyala province in early 2007, children at a school plugged their ears just before an IED exploded beneath one of our vehicles. The kids knew what was coming, but they saw no reason to warn us. Instead, they watched us drive right into the ambush.*"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/rweb/...5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html?tid=kindle-app

Civilian police in the US are facing the same problem and need to make some huge changes quickly, before the harm is irreparable.

 

[Old Dog]

Well, Ed Ames, I think you also are missing the issue at the heart of this thread.

 

[Ed Ames]

Nope, old dog.

The scenario that started this thread is fine. Nobody died, the perp is going to jail. It is exactly the end every police officer should celebrate. Yes, the officer involved, facing some laughter from his peers, is trying to pull an "I meant to do that" and establish a narrative that paints him in what he thinks is a positive light. What he appears to have missed is that he really did do the right thing. The officer saved the perp's life...from his own training. Had the officer followed standard training and killed the perp the outcome would have been worse.

I know this isn't a popular view amongst the PC crowd, but killing people is bad. Even perps.


Beyond that, there is the point of the article I cited: police, in trying too hard to be safe, paradoxically make themselves less safe by inducing public hostility. This cop, by taking a risk, not only de-escalated the immediate situation (nobody died) but may have helped reduce hostility. Risky tactics, but good strategy.

 

[Old Dog]

Let's simply agree to disagree. Had the perp used the officer's pistol to kill the officer, which is a common outcome in these situations, would you still be saying the outcome should be celebrated?

The real issue is, is the current painting by media of all law enforcement as racist, trigger-happy thugs having an effect on the mindset of the cops on the street.

You want to characterize the present situation as anything other than that, you're as much a victim of the current political correctness as the liberal media.

 

[SwaneeSR]

Tough time to be a peace officer.

The current media frenzy and anti-cop vibe is going to spawn a lot of crime. There is not a good answer for this. As stated above, body cameras and cell phone video may or may not tell the whole story. For the officers sake, you hope so. I think most police are the good guys. Yes there are bad ones and mistakes are made.

A lot of good people in rough communities are going to suffer.

Ed Ames - that policeman nearly did not survive his shift. He is very lucky to have survived. Most of us go to work each day with the expectation of a safe work environment. We also expect to be treated with respect as we do our jobs.

Like I said, tough time to be a peace officer.

 

[Ed Ames]

Let's simply agree to disagree. Had the perp used the officer's pistol to kill the officer, which is a common outcome in these situations, would you still be saying the outcome should be celebrated?

Well we can certainly agree we disagree. Your "question" raises questions about whether we can leave it at that. Going back to my previous post: "Killing people is bad." This outcome was good because the lowest possible number of people died. Your question is deliberately provocative.

The real issue is, is the current painting by media of all law enforcement as racist, trigger-happy thugs having an effect on the mindset of the cops on the street.

As it should. When you put on a uniform it is because you wish to be judged and treated as a group. You want your reputation to be based on what others wearing that uniform do. When others wearing your uniform do bad things that hurts you.

You are blaming the media for revealing a problem. You should be furious with the people wearing your uniform and doing bad things. The fact that you are more upset that behavior is being shown, than at the behavior, is troubling.

Of course we here know that the issue isn't that a few officers are racists, murderers, or trigger happy thugs. What you are seeing is backlash against an incorrect approach to policing.

There has been a documented trend towards training officers to respond to any perceived lack of compliance with overwhelming force. This isn't "a few bad apples", it is doctrine.

At the same time, there has been a documented trend towards policing for profit. The rise of civil asset forfeiture is one example. This isn't "a few bad apples", it is doctrine.

Well guess what...you take that approach and people are going to react. You create an antagonistic relationship with the public. You endanger officer safety, and my safety too.

"...where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." -- F. Douglass

But yes, if you wear the uniform of people who - as doctrine - shoot Tamir Rice within 2 seconds of arriving on scene, that should have an effect on your mindset. You should be trying to figure out how to change...either change how others act when wearing your uniform, or your uniform.

Ed Ames - that policeman nearly did not survive his shift. He is very lucky to have survived.

Obviously.

Most of us go to work each day with the expectation of a safe work environment. We also expect to be treated with respect as we do our jobs.

Most of us choose jobs where we get a safe work environment and earn respect based on our individual actions...but not all jobs are like that. If you decide to be a fisherman, bush pilot, taxi driver, etc. you know you aren't going to get those things.

If you choose to be an American police officer, you are choosing a high risk career. The current relationship between the public and police has progressively degraded since the start of prohibition. It is unlikely to get better while current American police practices continue.

 

[SwaneeSR]

Ed Ames -

"If you choose to be an American police officer, you are choosing a high risk career."

Yes - I suspect many people go into law enforcement because they want to help people. I do not know this first hand. I am sure police officers are aware of some risk.

"The current relationship between the public and police has progressively degraded since the start of prohibition. "

Respectfully... Unsupported blanket statement - blowing hot air.

"It is unlikely to get better while current American police practices continue."

Not true. Good policing is happening all the time. Bad policing is highlighted in the current news cycle - just like shark attacks, over-represented. This too will be replaced by something else in the news.

 

[MedWheeler]

When you put on a uniform it is because you wish to be judged and treated as a group. You want your reputation to be based on what others wearing that uniform do.

Funny, that never occurred to me. I put it on because I had to to do the job I wanted to do, which was to serve the community and provide protection when I could. I intended that my portrayal contribute to the profession's reputation, not the other way around.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

The scenario that started this thread is fine. Nobody died, the perp is going to jail. It is exactly the end every police officer should celebrate...What he appears to have missed is that he really did do the right thing. The officer saved the perp's life...from his own training.

If there's anything to be celebrated here, it wasn't that he "did the right thing"...it's the fact that he got unbelievably lucky to have survived, period.

And "his own training" had absolutely nothing to do with it.

They both survived, yes...and that's a good thing. But it wasn't because he did anything right.

Lady Luck is an awfully fickle creature to be betting ANYBODY'S life on.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Ed Ames:

The scenario that started this thread is fine. Nobody died, the perp is going to jail. It is exactly the end every police officer should celebrate.

I do hope you are kidding.

Yes, the officer involved, facing some laughter from his peers, is trying to pull an "I meant to do that" and establish a narrative that paints him in what he thinks is a positive light.

Pure speculation.

What he appears to have missed is that he really did do the right thing.

You would have us believe that allowing a criminal to get control of his weapon and attack him with it was doing "the right thing"?

The officer saved the perp's life...from his own training.[/QUOTEThe perp survived. No one "saved his life".

Had the officer followed standard training and killed the perp the outcome would have been worse.

What "standard training" would call for killing anyone?

...police, in trying too hard to be safe, paradoxically make themselves less safe by inducing public hostility.

What in the world is "trying too hard to be safe"?

There has been a documented trend towards training officers to respond to any perceived lack of compliance with overwhelming force.

Let us see your "documentation".

 

[Ed Ames]

Posted by Ed Ames:I do hope you are kidding..

Why?

The officer has stated that he considered using lethal force against the perp, which would likely resulted in perp's death. That force was, with the benefit of hindsight, clearly not justified (officer survived without it, ergo it was not necessary). Cop made a tough call, chose not to shoot, and as a direct result nobody died.

Pure speculation. .

Educated guess.

You would have us believe that allowing a criminal to get control of his weapon and attack him with it was doing "the right thing"? .

You weren't there. Your armchair quarterbacking is just speculation. What we know as a fact is that the officer found himself in a situation where he considered, and discarded, using lethal force, and that decision was correct as evidenced by the fact that everyone lived, the perp is in jail, the officer able to talk about it too.

The officer saved the perp's life...from his own training.[/QUOTEThe perp survived. No one "saved his life"..

Officer made a choice, against training. Don't belittle that.

What "standard training" would call for killing anyone?.

Lol...all of the 21' rule, you have only .2 seconds to make a decision to use lethal force, etc. training boils down to Tamir Rice.

What in the world is "trying too hard to be safe"?.

Read the article I linked to.

Let us see your "documentation".

Sure, later. I don't have time to Google at the moment.

 

[Tirod]

"The current relationship between the public and police has progressively degraded since the start of prohibition. "

No, not a blanket statement at all. Just one where some people disregard the evidence that has been building over their lifetime.

I was watching an old "Numb3rs" episode from ten years back, one plot line was a neighborhood anti violence directors aggressive bias against the police. It was described as causing more harm than good. It was played out in East Los Angeles.

Most urban residential neighborhoods have that issue. Ferguson, for just one example. And the high shooting neighborhoods in Chicago. Very poor relationship with cops - because the people see them as oppressors who are there to make them suffer.

Saying that doesn't exist is like saying the Civil Rights movement in the '60's was just one peaceful march after another. Au contraire. People were illegally incarcerated because the police were acting as the agents of segregation. No argument about that at all, it happened.

The incident that highlights a continuing practice in one city - stop and frisk, if a pocketknife is discovered, it's overzealously interpreted as a "gravity knife," the possessor died in transport. There are some very respected legal scholars who are pointing out that it's a white minority of those in power attempting to repress the local citizen, and incidents like this don't help.

That the officer in the OP decided he didn't need to be part of the media focus on this IS happening. Officers ARE deciding not to get into confrontations and avoiding the risk. There ARE political operatives using neighborhood tensions to further a political agenda. He made his decision, it didn't turn out well, but it wasn't lethal. And the "assailant" did turn himself in. Had he gotten the impression that being on the loose was worse than being in custody, maybe, but custody was the better avenue. The police in that town have at least retained their reputation that it would be relatively safer. Unlike some out of town detainees who wind up dead in their cell under suspicious circumstances.

There's quite a few current situations in the news the last few months, if none of them ring a bell then someone is avoiding the nightly news. The cops are very much being used by the media, and some PD's very much have lost the trust of the people who hired them. It's another subject entirely how that happened - where were the residents of Ferguson when the City Council ignored the obvious racial profile of their own police force, or when another liquor license was approved? There's much more to the issue - but it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

 

[Ed Ames]

Ed Ames -

"If you choose to be an American police officer, you are choosing a high risk career."

Yes - I suspect many people go into law enforcement because they want to help people. I do not know this first hand. I am sure police officers are aware of some risk.

It isn't a secret. Being a police officer in the American model involves accepting risk.

"The current relationship between the public and police has progressively degraded since the start of prohibition. "

Respectfully... Unsupported blanket statement - blowing hot air.

Not that hard to support. NFA '34 is also a direct result of Prohibition.

"It is unlikely to get better while current American police practices continue."

Not true. Good policing is happening all the time. Bad policing is highlighted in the current news cycle - just like shark attacks, over-represented. This too will be replaced by something else in the news.

There is a disagreement about what "good policing" means. Some people think a police officer taking someone's car because it came from the factory with a compartment the officer characterizes as "concealed and able to carry illegal drugs", without any evidence there were drugs or any crime, is good policing. Some people don't. Some people think arresting someone for carrying a spring assisted pocket knife, and caring for him in custody with such disregard that he dies, is good policing. Others think the arrest was groundless and his care was beyond negligent. Same incidents, different views.

Funny, that never occurred to me. I put it on because I had to to do the job I wanted to do, which was to serve the community and provide protection when I could. I intended that my portrayal contribute to the profession's reputation, not the other way around.

It works both ways.

 

[Sam1911]

Posted by Ed Ames:I do hope you are kidding..

Why?

The officer has stated that he considered using lethal force against the perp, which would likely resulted in perp's death. That force was, with the benefit of hindsight, clearly not justified (officer survived without it, ergo it was not necessary). Cop made a tough call, chose not to shoot, and as a direct result nobody died.

Do not confuse being incredibly, unreasonably lucky with making a GOOD choice. Making the RIGHT choice.

No one died. That is a happy circumstance of random chance. Exactly akin to completely losing control of your car, running diagonally between oncoming traffic, careening miraculously through a playground full of kids, and having it flip three times, and then land on its wheels in condition that you can drive it home. That's not a good decision or good driving. That's simply NOT reaping the expected rewards of terrible mistakes.

That happens sometimes. Just as the opposite happens sometimes.

Taking any lesson from good results torn from the jaws of awful mistakes is incredibly unwise.