Increasing US Army strength - without more soldiers...

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Preacherman

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This sounds like a good idea to me... reduce the non-fighting support "tail" by hiring civilians to do jobs that don't need uniformed personnel, and thereby free up enough fighting personnel to form a couple of extra divisions! :D


From the New York Times, 08/24/03 (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/24/i...00&en=cb6c1a6a2cd317b5&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE):

Rumsfeld Seeking to Bolster Force Without New G.I.'s
By THOM SHANKER

ASHINGTON, Aug. 23 — Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, seeking to increase the nation's combat power without hiring more troops, is poised to order a sweeping review of Pentagon policies, officials say. It will include everything from wartime mobilization and peacekeeping commitments, to reservist training and incentives for extended duty.

A senior Defense Department official said Mr. Rumsfeld would order the Pentagon's senior leadership, both civilian and military, to rethink ways to reduce stress on the armed forces, fulfill recruitment and retention goals and operate the Pentagon more efficiently.

In essence, Mr. Rumsfeld will ask the service secretaries and chiefs and his under secretaries to address how the Pentagon can more efficiently use its troops at a time when the armed forces are spread thin by global deployments.

Should Mr. Rumsfeld eventually be forced to expand the military, whether by unexpected missions, future threats or a Congressional mandate, the effort should reduce the size of the reinforcements required, officials said.

The review will be seen in some circles as answering powerful members of Congress who have demanded more active-duty troops for the military. Lengthy deployments to Iraq drew scattered complaints from families of soldiers, and some reservists criticized their extended call-ups.

Some concepts being proposed as ways to enhance combat power challenge core military planning. One questions the long-term practice of earmarking forces in the United States for specific regional war zones, as opposed to ordering the military at large to stand ready to be sent wherever required. Another asks whether advances in intelligence-gathering and analysis allow the nation to anticipate threats with greater accuracy. Such "strategic warning" could direct more efficient plans for assigning troops.

Other proposals are based in pragmatism. Mr. Rumsfeld told Congress he wanted to transfer to civilians or contract workers an estimated 300,000 administrative jobs now performed by people in uniform.

While some on Capitol Hill reject that total as high, one senior Pentagon official said that if even one-sixth of those jobs were converted, then the equivalent of more than two Army divisions could enter the fighting force without any increase in the number of paid military personnel.

In the same vein, Navy planners are complimented for designing ships that use new technologies to cut crew size by perhaps 50 percent.

Another approach is asking allies to help shoulder the burden. Officials say 3,000 Germans now stand guard at United States bases in Germany, replacing Americans sent to Iraq. Before Mr. Rumsfeld asked Germany to provide those patrols, thousands of reservists were almost mobilized for the mission.

Mr. Rumsfeld's latest thinking on these questions is encapsulated in a working paper, titled "End Strength," which runs about a dozen pages and has already gone through four versions after discussions with his most senior circle of civilian and military advisers, said officials who have seen the document. End strength is the military term for total force levels.

"He said, `Let's bring back answers so we can start to gather the information, start to make the analysis of where we are with regard to stress on the force, what we're going to do about that,' " said one senior Pentagon official. "What does the force `end strength' look like in terms of what we need for tomorrow? This has got to be an intellectual pursuit as opposed to an emotional argument. That's the secretary's intent."

A heated debate over end strength is expected after Congress returns from its recess in September, as powerful voices on Capitol Hill have taken to op-ed pages to announce their coming fight for more troops.

"We need more troops or fewer missions," Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, the Texas Republican who leads the Senate Appropriations subcommittee on military construction, wrote in The Washington Times this week. "Do we have enough Army and Marine active-duty members for the post-Sept. 11 era of national security? My view is: We do not."

Senior Pentagon officials cite war games run by the Joint Staff indicating that the military — at present — has sufficient active and reserve forces to do the job. While Mr. Rumsfeld has said he would go to President Bush and Congress for additional troops if required, he also says that it would be an expensive mistake to enlarge the military without detailed analysis proving the case.

The debate is about balancing risks. On one side is the risk that there will not be enough soldiers to carry out diverse missions or that troops will not re-enlist after exhausting assignments that degrade their quality of family life and do not leave enough time for training.

That risk must be weighed, though, against the fact that money spent on personnel will not be available for new technology and modernizing the current arsenal.

Mr. Rumsfeld's senior aides say that his view does not represent an antipathy to a larger military in general or to ground forces in particular. They say he is aware that increased troop levels carry a number of additional costs beyond pay and benefits: the more troops on the roster, the more it costs to house them, guard them and equip them — and pay them retirement benefits in decades to come.

Some of the arguments made by Mr. Rumsfeld, based on evidence from the battlefields of Afghanistan and Iraq, provide only a broad measure for required troop numbers.

For example, early lessons from those two wars are cited as proving that the military does not necessarily require "overwhelming force" — in numbers — to defeat an adversary if it brings "overmatching power." That power includes not only the number of fighters, but also precision weapons, accurate intelligence, speed of maneuver and joint missions that combine the combat punch of all the armed services.

Even so, the quick victory over Saddam Hussein has not silenced those who say more troops are required to stabilize Iraq and win the peace.

The strain on the National Guard and Reserve is of considerable concern, and officials will analyze how to increase the months actually served on duty. At present, with the promise of a 30-day notice of mobilization, — which in some cases was reduced to less than a week — several months of training and a month of demobilization, some reservists spend only six months on operations out of a yearlong call-up.

For active-duty troops, the Pentagon will review incentives for extended deployments.

Mr. Rumsfeld will ask for analysis on a proposed "Peace Operations Initiative" to create an international force for such operations, relieving the United States of pressures on its troops for missions like that under way in Liberia. The American role would emphasize logistics, transportation and intelligence. In the meantime, the Pentagon will assess how to pare down its commitments in Sinai, Bosnia and Kosovo.

Senior officials in recent days convened a number of invitation-only discussions with retired three- and four-star officers and civilian analysts to describe Mr. Rumsfeld's ideas for reducing stress on the military.

"Rumsfeld's goal is reshaping the entire institution," said Michael O'Hanlon, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution who joined one of the closed-door discussions at the Pentagon. "He is rethinking everything, not just reconceptualizing warfare."

The Pentagon's archives are filled with annual reviews, quadrennial reviews and top-to-bottom reviews ordered by previous defense secretaries — but which only marginally restructured the department and the armed services. Mr. O'Hanlon warned that Mr. Rumsfeld's efforts might founder, too, although he noted that Mr. Rumsfeld certainly found himself in a powerful position.

With two military victories in two years, Mr. Rumsfeld "doesn't want to wait for a second term of the Bush administration," Mr. O'Hanlon said. "He is trying pushing this through, personally, now."
 
Great idea...
Or bucket of worms at crunch time.

A couple random thoughts...
Who would the civillian support folks answer to ?

Would they be civil service, contract labor or ??

etc.

Sam
 
There is a tremendous amount of work being done by contractors now. In fact we've even been seeing some casualties among contractors in Iraq.

I'm not certain we haven't taken this as far as it can go. While Rumsfeld is everyone who know's nothing about the military's darling because he verbally slaps the press around (who hasn't wanted to do that before :D) I predict that history will place him right up there with Robert Strange McNamara as the worst in the job.

Sam, all of the proposals I have read favor the contractor route. Considering the cost of contracting these things out, I don't see any money being saved, especially if the job will require US citizens. I just received a solicitation from a security company wanting to hire recently separted combat arms personnel for $500 a day for a 4 month contract. Most likely the US government is picking up the tab. The offer said it was for Air Ops, convoy movement, point and area security. But our forces aren't over stretched......:rolleyes:

Jeff
 
Great, i leave for Basic in 18 day and Rumsfeld wants to change every thing

What made you decide to join the army?

I'll be 24 soon and I've basically decided that I'm already too old to join at this point.
 
I think they should privatize the military. Everything could then be done for about 1/10th the cost it is being done today.

I was on holdover just after boot camp at MCRD San Diego. I was doing some :cuss: maintenance stuff until I could report to my MOS school for training. They wanted me to do some painting but didn't have any brushes. I was like "okay, I run down to the local paint store and pick up a couple. I need $10." You'd have thought I just declared war on the entire USMC and spit in my CO face or something. Anyway, it boiled down to requisitioning said paint brushes for somewhere in the neighborhood or $30 each (long after I left).

Now, I know I am not the only one with stories like this and I know businesses run tighter ships than this with more employees and bigger budgets so it can be done. I am just not sure of the effects it would have long term.

GT
 
I'll be 24 soon and I've basically decided that I'm already too old to join at this point.


You're not by a long shot. In fact, there's not a single solitary job in any military branch from which you would be barred due to age.

JShirley joined at 30.
 
Transformation is essential, necessary, and any other term you can chose. That said, we'd better be real careful here. An unwritten assumption here is the military is a fat, bloated, over-funded bureaucracy intent on sustaining the status quo. Wrong assumption. 8 years of cut backs combined with 8 years of highly dubious deployments by the former administration has stretched the military to its extremes. Now riding into town is a new gunslinger, Rummy, dead set on making his mark. Opps, unintended events happen and now we have a war on our hands in addition to all the other higly dubious deployments the military is still supporting.

Rummy is completely correct about transformation and making all the miltary fleet of foot. That is underway. But there are limits to what can be done with the existing troop levels simply because of time and space limitations. If you ain't got the bodies to do the missions, I don't care how you slice and dice the force mix. It ain't gonna make any difference.

I've seen corporations hollow themselves out for a variety of reasons. I've seen all the games played to make outsiders think they can do more with less. And in every single case at some poiint corporation run up against the reality of headcount. . . the very factor no one wants increase. Rummy is a corporate animal who has presided over the hollowing out of his companies. Now he brings that skill to the military. Jimmuh Carter presided over the hollowing out of the military in the 70's and it was ugly. Rummy stands to pull the same stunt if he is not careful.

Call me a cynic.
 
I'll be 24 soon and I've basically decided that I'm already too old to join at this point.
The Army will take you up to 32 year of age. I'm joining at 28. There are lot of " older " people joining now.

What made you decide to join the army?.
The job market:(
I have no real skills and can't find a good job!

I guess you could say that i'm joining for the training and Gi bill. With that seid.......
With the MOS that i have, i still could see combat and be near the front line.:evil:

MOS 31R
 
Eventually our politicians will have to pay the politically unpopular price for bringing back the draft. Like it or not, in my opinion that's what it is going to take.

However, something hideous will have to happen before this becomes palatable to the American populace at large, who STILL, even after the 09-11 attacks don't seem to perceive how tenuous national security is.

Losing a city to a nuke smuggled across our borders would probably provide the necessary impetus. One would hope that it doesn't come to that, but I don't see any politician of any influence willing to pay the political price at the present time unless something ghastly happens. Their poll numbers would drop. We can't have that.

I hope I'm wrong.

However, one thing I'm not wrong about is that if deployments stay as they are, then the all-volunteer military just doesn't have enough people to do what it needs to do. Something has to give sooner or later. You either have to stop deploying so much (the old "Rob Peter to pay Paul") or get more troops. I'm no math whiz, but it seems like a fairly simple equation to me.
 
Uggh.

Like Sam asked, contract or civil service? I think it opens a can of worms. You also have other issues that the government will be paying for - workman's comp, Americans with Disability Act (I don't think it applies to the military but if it hires civilians, it will) and many other things. On one hand, the thought is good but I don't think it was well thought out.

Back in WW I and WW II, all those administrative posts were filled with women who relieved the men to do the fighting. Today, we have women in the ranks and while I'm not urging they go back to clerical work (besides, better Sally gets shot at than Cowardly Me), there should be a way to streamline the military (cut the paperworkers) to get more troops on the line. Dunno.
 
>Eventually our politicians will have to pay the politically unpopular price for bringing back the draft.

>Losing a city to a nuke smuggled across our borders would probably provide the necessary impetus.

I don't see the link here. How will forcing young men and women out of their chosen careers and into an impressed Army lower the risk of smuggled nukes? Are you claiming that our volunteer soldiers aren't good enough (and that draftees will be more enthusiastic? Like the draftees in Viet Nam?) I hope you'll spell out your ideas.

I could see that invading fewer countries while putting more effort into civil defense might help us get through the next century. I certainly agree with you that our cities are at risk, while, for example, Switzerland's cities are not. I think we need to think about why this is so.
 
contract or civil service?

There is NO emphasis on expanding the Civil Service: it all points toward contracting out. Much of that has been done already, and I, for one, worry about the time coming when the only military billets left are the trigger-pullers. Now for some of you gun nuts :D that might seem like Nirvana. But to the average snuffy with a wife and two kids left at home, being continuously deployed to the garden spots of the world gets real old real fast. Retention will begin to suffer, and recruitment will be even more difficult. I think we're not far away from that point today.

TC
TFL Survivor
 
Having a job done by a civilian instead of a soldier doesn't seem to accomplish anything. It's still a job done by a body. Probably a more expensive body. Unless we're going to farm the jobs to sweatshops in China and India.

I wonder how the "507th Maintenance Company, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Logisticorp, Inc" would have fared in the desert.

Regards.
 
Headcount is one thing, training is something else.

And mindset is something else entirely.


When was in, the Army, in its infinite wisdom :rolleyes: decided they had too many uniformed clerks, and too many of them had too much rank. Oh, but over there in the Combat Arms (Infantry, Artillery, Armor) they had a shortage of NCOs. No problem, we'll just take these paper pushers and give them a few weeks of training and make Infantrymen out of them! (Or Armor, ect.)


It was a disaster. THey had no clue about being warriors. They were clerks, they stayed clerks. Glad we didn't have a serious conflict at the time, because these folks were rotten planks on our ship of war.
 
personalkly, i think they could greatly add to toe combat power of the combat arms units with imbedded shooting enthusiasts.


have a bunch of shooters sign up for a couple week bootcamp course, and send them to the combat zone. they'll have to bring their own rifle and gear, but they're given free ammo, and room and board. you might even get people to pay for the chance.
 
Sam brings up some good questions. US News and WR recently ran an article dealing with this very issue. Basically, the problems that the military currently is experiencing are:

- chain-of-command
- making civilians follow orders
- civilians quitting when they are uncomfortable with their assigned duties
- putting civilians in harms way
- arming civilians
- civilians not properly identified on the battlefield by friendly or foe troops

Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
 
In the meantime, the Pentagon will assess how to pare down its commitments in Sinai, Bosnia and Kosovo."

SINAI? How many here knew we still had troops in the Sinai? I frankly didn't know whe EVER had them there, and I pride myself at keeping up with this sort of news. Must have been one of Carter's ideas.
 
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