Insert conversion barrels and mag-fed guns.

[A strange person]

Some companies manufacture insert barrels for shotguns that allow them to use centerfire or rimfire cartridges. They are usually advertised as being for break-action guns only, presumably for the obvious reason that the breech of the barrel in these weapons is exposed upon opening the action, thus making the conversion barrel easy to install and remove.

Now, I'm no expert, but I don't see any reason why one of these could not be used in a pump or semi-auto by simply removing the barrel, inserting the conversion barrel into the shotgun barrel, then re-installing the shotgun barrel.

Obviously, installing or removing one of these in a mag-fed gun would take more time and effort than using such an item with a break-action, and removing a stuck case might require the use of a plastic butter knife or something, but I don't see why it wouldn't simply just work.

I'd like to have one of these items in .22LR to store in a backpack for emergency use, but I want to be sure if it would work first, as I only have a pump-action shotgun. Can anyone shed any light on this?

 

[rcmodel]

Only problen I see is, a break-open shotgun usually has an extractor that may or may not also act as an ejector.

Your pump or semi-auto extractor is going to pull the adaptor out of the chamber and at least try to eject it every time you open the action.

Whether you want it too or not.

Then, if it is too long to clear the ejection port, you will have to take the barrel off every shot to get it out of the action and start over again.

rc

 

[A strange person]

Gosh, I didn't think of that. I wonder how difficult it would be to gently pull the extractor off the rim when opening the action, though.

It probably seems like it would be quite a pain to operate by now, but the ability to use .22LR ammo at modest range in emergencies without packing another gun (and being able to use the sight radius of a shotgun, no less), would still be worth it to me.

Also, it occurs to me that many of these adapters are about 3" anyway. Maybe they can be extracted like normal shells?

 

[A strange person]

I just tested this: pulling the extractor off of a shell with the bolt pulled halfway back is easy, and I could do it with the tip of my finger.

Using an adapter in my 870 is looking hopeful.

 

[Uniquedot]

I'd like to have one of these items in .22LR to store in a backpack for emergency use

You can use the short adapters that do not have built in extractors. These have to be removed from the gun every time you fire them anyway so as to push the cartridge case out with a small dowel. Your 870 will eject those type of adapters for un/reloading the adapter. A much better option for carrying in your back pack is an U.S. survival rifle from henry. These guns break down very compact and only weigh 2.5 lbs. and they are capable of the accuracy needed to dispatch small game. Another option is a good .22 caliber handgun. Either is a much better option than those short adapters...even the rifled ones.

 

[murdoc rose]

I'm not sure why anyone would ever do this.

 

[drsfmd]

Those short adapters provide no accuracy at all. You'd be lucky to hit a paper plate at 10 yards with one.

 

[oneounceload]

I'd like to have one of these items in .22LR to store in a backpack for emergency use

Personally, I would look for a nice used H&R 929 - I had one with a 2-1/2" barrel - 9 shot. OK accuracy, good for a BOB gun

 

[A strange person]

I already am in the habit of keeping a light .22 pistol in my pack, but we are talking sight radiuses of about 4", vs 20"+ for a shotgun. Even if the insert is only 3" long, that ought to provide enough theoretical accuracy to pop squirrels at 35-40 yards (4MOA isn't asking much from ANY rifled weapon).

Short lane is now making one that is 8" long. Evidently, one of the guys from "Dual Survival" was involved with that project. I have respect for any survivalism-minded person who appreciates the value of nifty little ideas that make weapons more versatile, unlike the guy who said:

I'm not sure why anyone would ever do this.

Yeah, what could possibly be the use of a light, compact, inexpensive device for using .22's in a shotgun, other than being a no-brainer survival implement?

 

[drsfmd]

It's only a no brainer if they work, and these really dont.

I assure you that you will never achieve anything even remotely close to 4moa with one of these.

Now, there are some full length, excellent quality adapters out there- in particular ones made by Krieghoff, but they will cost a couple thousand bucks to acquire, and can only be fitted to Krieghoff Drillings... which will cost more than a new Mercedes. http://krieghoff.com/index.php/competition-shotguns/21-hunting-guns/optima-drilling

 

[rcmodel]

that ought to provide enough theoretical accuracy to pop squirrels at 35-40 yards

Say what??

You better take a sack of trail-mix granola with you to live on while you try to get a squrrel at 30-40 yards with one of those things in a shotgun chamber!!

Seriously, you would be much better equipped to harvest small game with a Ruger Bearcat revolver, or S&W Kit Gun, or Ruger 22/45 Lite trail gun.
http://www.ruger.com/products/2245Lite/models.html

But if you already got a shotgun along?
Why not just use a shotgun shell?
They will kill a squrrel just fine at those ranges with one shot.

rc

 

[jmorris]

Sounds like what you really need is a Savage 24.

 

[Uniquedot]

Evidently, one of the guys from "Dual Survival" was involved with that project. I have respect for any survivalism-minded person who appreciates the value of nifty little ideas that make weapons more versatile

Would this happen to be the same guy that muzzle loads a 12 ga. single shot break action shotgun with copper coated steel bb's from wal-mart with no steel shot wad to speak of? the same guy that said the copper coating keeps the steel bb's from harming the barrel? perhaps he should stick to primitive survival skills and leave firearms knowledge to someone else.

 

[murdoc rose]

Just because it says bear grylls on it doesn't mean its useful or quality.

 

[A strange person]

You better take a sack of trail-mix granola with you to live on while you try to get a squrrel at 30-40 yards with one of those things in a shotgun chamber!!

Short lane is now making one that is 8" long, which is the one I had in mind when I started this thread. I think that kind of accuracy would be reasonable from something this.

Also, I used to be able to kill squirrels at 15 yards with a Beretta 21A offhand. That had a 2.5"ish barrel, which is a little shorter than some of the adapters I'm talking about. Assuming an adapter barrel of at least the same length, but the long sight radius of a shotgun, I don't see why, say, at least 30 yards would not be reasonable. You are successfully wearing down my optimism, though.

But if you already got a shotgun along?
Why not just use a shotgun shell?

I do, but 12GA ammo is 11-14X heavier than .22LR ammo, and I'm likely to run out on long expeditions (my "vacations"). Most people obviously wouldn't care about things like that, but most people are just sport hunters. I, on the other hand, am a wilderness survival skills and "extreme backpacking" enthusiast who hunts, so I just look at guns differently.

Sounds like what you really need is a Savage 24.

For sure, but too bad they don't make them anymore. They have a new O/U combo gun out now, but it is being marketed to kids and looks like space alien S#$T. I am very hyper-sensitive to gaudiness in ALL of my possessions. And, it is only offered in .410 for the shotgun barrel, which is an almost redundant companion for the .22 barrel if you ask me. A .22WMR over a 20GA would be perfect. I have never seen a used 24 that looked like it was in even decent condition.

Would this happen to be the same guy that muzzle loads a 12 ga. single shot break action shotgun with copper coated steel bb's from wal-mart...

No idea. The barefoot guy is so ludicrous that I cannot even bring myself to watch the show.

Just because it says bear grylls on it doesn't mean its useful or quality.

Agreed.

 

[rcmodel]

Here is a video test:

Tumbling bullets and scattergun accuracy at 25 feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b65Z1djhQWk

rc

 

[oneounceload]

Good video - by the time you actually hit something with it, you could have used 1 shotgun round

 

[A strange person]

Here is a video test:

Tumbling bullets and scattergun accuracy at 25 feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b65Z1djhQWk

Why would theoretical accuracy be that poor? Why would it not be similar to a pistol of the same barrel length? Maybe that particular company just doesn't make very good ones? I cannot think of any technical explanation for such poor performance other than that the thing just wasn't designed properly. 3" of barrel for stabilization + a shotgun's sight radius should theoretically equal reasonable accuracy at modest range.

 

[Uniquedot]

Why would theoretical accuracy be that poor? Why would it not be similar to a pistol of the same barrel length?

I have used inserts in the past and they did decent in the back yard shooting plastic bottles at close range, but i would not want to rely on one to put meat in my belly. One reason for poor accuracy is the fact that they are not fixed in the chamber and the firing pin strike likely causes some movement to the insert. The ones that fit better will offer somewhat better accuracy. I have used them in rifles and shotguns and was never impressed with them for anything other than backyard shooting at very close range.

 

[A strange person]

One reason for poor accuracy is the fact that they are not fixed in the chamber and the firing pin strike likely causes some movement to the insert. The ones that fit better will offer somewhat better accuracy.

Ah, an actual technical explanation, thank you.

I still might experiment with them, given how cheap they are. Gaugemate is making some now, and it seems that they generally have a reputation for making quality products.

 

[rcmodel]

I believe accuracy could be improved by machining a couple of grooves in the insert to hold rubber O-Rings that would be a press fit in the chamber. That would take up all the manufacturing tolerance mis-match, and prevent the shakes & wobbles in the chamber.

Even a wrap or two of vinyl electrical tape might make them fit well enough to not rattle.

Still, the only reason for key-holing bullets at 25' is sub-standard bore diameter or rifling.

I have a S&W 617 revolver weighing 10 ounces that will put all the bullets in a very small group at 20 yards off a bench.

No key-holing at all should be expected if a 1 3/4" or longer barrel is made right.

rc

 

[A strange person]

I believe accuracy could be improved by machining a couple of grooves in the insert to hold rubber O-Rings that would be a press fit in the chamber. That would take up all the manufacturing tolerance mis-match, and prevent the shakes & wobbles in the chamber.

Even a wrap or two of vinyl electrical tape might make them fit well enough to not rattle.

That's brilliant. I'll remember that idea in case I decide to experiment with these things, thanks.

 

[oneounceload]

Bullets rise as they leave the barrel - you are trying to prevent that from happening with the long barrel - I suspect that bullets is hitting the barrel during its journey to the muzzle, thus giving the poor accuracy in the video

 

[rcmodel]

I would not think so.

Hopefully, the chamber insert is bored straight with the outside diameter of the insert.

As such, there would be no measurable bullet drop in the remaining shotgun barrel length to allow it to hit the sidewall.

It is entirely possible a sloppy loose chamber, and a sloppy loose chamber insert might be off center on one end or the other far enough it is hitting the inside of the bore.

But somehow, I just don't believe you are going to get a match grade barrel & rifling in a $30 buck chamber insert!

A 3" long chunk of a quality barrel, machined & rifled off-center so a RF primer is under a CF firing pin would cost way more then that per inch!!

rc

 

[oneounceload]

True - but take a relook at that video and that is what you see - it IS off center.

Even if centered, bullets rise then fall over the the shooting distance. Take a bullet exiting the converter, it still has to go over 20" before it is free of the barrel - it is possible it is slightly striking the barrel causing the keyhole