Interesting 9mm problem

[Packnteacher]

Here's the problem: The powders I have on hand are 231 (which I'd rather use, b/c it's open), Unique, and True Blue. So I need data that use one of these. I also have some 125 gr RN cast boolits. Until my moulds get here I must use these. Perhaps you can already see the problem. So the data I got from the Hogdon's site told me that the OAL for the 125 gr RN oughtta be 1.169, which is the max for the cartridge. OK, I can do that. Hogdon's didn't have a charge for the same boolit using 231, so I found one close to my boolit weight and reduced it by .1 gr. Just starting out, y'see. That charge was 2.8gr of 231.

Get to the range, and the rounds are nicely accurate, but they won't eject. Too small a charge, I reckon. Tried some reloads purchased at the range, and all works well.

So. Any ideas on some low-end charges, given the above parameters? In case it matters, the pistol is an S&W M&P 9.

Thanks for your help.

 

[greyling22]

I was shooting w231 in the 3.4gn range and was getting 950 fps or so. However they didn't shoot very well for me. I struggled mightily with lead in my 9mm. hardest thing I have ever loaded, and I've loaded a lot. It helped me to run a .358 sized bullet. At least that got rid the keyholing.

good luck!


edit (I tried wsf, w231, hs-6, titegroup, red dot, 3n37, powders, hard lead, soft lead, my cast, purchased cast lead 9mm bullets sized .356, .357 and 358, weights from 115 to 147, and about 50 possible combinations of those. I ran pushed them fast, I tried them slow. I tried different dies. I finally settled on 4.4 grn wsf, a lee rnfp 125grn mold that drops about .360, sized down to .358 using water quenched ww as my alloy, lee dies with a 38s&w expander plug. They run about 950 fps, give me moderate leading, lots of smoke and fouling, and fist sized groups at 10 yds. Using winchester white box store bought ammo I shoot about a 1.5" group at 10 yds.)

 

[Gadawg88]

From Lee reloading book: starting load for 9 mm luger, 125 gn lead bullet with W231 is 3.9 gn

 

[sexybeast]

I shoot hundreds of 125's with 231 every month. Competition or just practice. Try 3.7gr. Its what I use. You will love it, it will be accurate and it will cycle your gun.
OAL does not matter much with lighter loads. Just make sure the bullet drops all the way into your barrel. For feeding you want the round to be as long as possible and still fit. OAL is a guideline in loading manuels. Sometimes the length they list is too long for it to fit. Not all bullets are shaped the same.

 

[kcofohio]

125 GR. LCN Winchester 231 .356" 1.125" 3.9 1009 25,700
CUP 4.4 1086 31,200
This is from Hodgdon's data page.

 

[Blue68f100]

OAL is gun specific. You need to find out what length works in your gun. Then do a load work up from there. I find that in most auto I need to be in the mid range for the gun to operate properly without reducing the recoil spring.

 

[sexybeast]

Greyling wrote:

edit (I tried wsf, w231, hs-6, titegroup, red dot, 3n37, powders, hard lead, soft lead, my cast, purchased cast lead 9mm bullets sized .356, .357 and 358, weights from 115 to 147, and about 50 possible combinations of those. I ran pushed them fast, I tried them slow. I tried different dies. I finally settled on 4.4 grn wsf, a lee rnfp 125grn mold that drops about .360, sized down to .358 using water quenched ww as my alloy, lee dies with a 38s&w expander plug. They run about 950 fps, give me moderate leading, lots of smoke and fouling, and fist sized groups at 10 yds. Using winchester white box store bought ammo I shoot about a 1.5" group at 10 yds.)

Interesting! During my struggles with 9mm lead I was very frustrated too. No where near what you wrote here though. What gun are you having problems with/shooting? What dies are you using? And are you using a Lee Factory Crimp die.
Out of both my glock and M&P 9 I can shoot under 2" with many of the bullets you mentioned at 35 feet.
I have never used hs6, 3n37, or wsf so I can't comment on those powders. I've never loaded .358 either. Most of my lead 9mm is hard cast, between 16-18 brinell hardness. Dardas are the only bullets I ordered in .357. So far the 147gr with 3.5gr of 231 is the most accurate load I have. The 125's are not far behind. I've given up on 115gr out of my m&p. More a problem of the gun rather than bullets.
What 125gr bullets do you have now? Try 3.7gr of 231. don't use a factory crimp die, use taper crimp only. Flare the case mouth enough for the bullet to slip in and start without shaving the bullet. The expander plug is a good idea, I use the lyman M expander die. Set the OAL as long as possible and still "thunk" into the barrel. Test and get back and post your results.
Don't push them fast, there have been heated discussions about this. A moderator "warned" me about my tone because I disagreed with him. [the carnage]!!
I've done a lot of experimentation with this and I am curious if this works for you. Be sure to mention the gun you are using, I have a Browning hi-power that I just can't shoot lead with no matter what I try. My next step is to slug the barrel, its the one gun I have not done that to.
Lead in 9mm is very challenging compared to 40 or 45.

 

[BruceB]

Long experience with the cast-bullet 9mm by myself and MANY others on the Cast Boolit Board has shown a few things, most important of which are these two:

1. We do NOT need "hardcast" bullets (that term being mostly an advertising buzzword that has muscled its way into common usage). Regular clip-on wheelweight metal works fine in the 9mm, and

2. Bullet sizing is critical, in that most commercial bullets are TOO SMALL..... we get best results with bullets of at least .357" diameter, and my three 9mms dote on bullets of .358 and even .359". Use the largest diameter that will still chamber freely in YOUR 9mm, and ignore the "common wisdom" that says the 9mm needs .355/.356" bullets. The largest single cause of "leading" is bullets that are too small in diameter.

The suggested powder charges earlier in this thread should help your loads; the charge you tried is indeed too light.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

 

[Jim Watson]

I am loading 125 gr BBI "moly" coated cast truncated cone with 4.2 gr HP38* at 1.135" for 1048 fps.

*HP38 is the same powder as Win 231 if made within the past five years.

 

[P-32]

In regards to leading. Just an observation on my part. Lead and 45 ACP are made for each other. I found I was leading badly and went through the hard cast etc, etc. What I found was I was 1. not belling enough and 2. crimping too much. My theory is I was disturbing the lead in the bullet where it goes into the case.

Once I belled the case mouth a little more and backed off the crimp, suddenly the bore leading went away.

I would assume 9MM would be the same. When I was reloading 9MM, I was shooting a Glock, so no lead. YMMV. Tim

 

[Packnteacher]

Thanks, Sexybeast and BruceB. You guys are what makes these forums (fora?) so helpful.

 

[sexybeast]

. We do NOT need "hardcast" bullets (that term being mostly an advertising buzzword that hes muscled its way into common usage). Regular clip-on wheelweight metal works fine in the 9mm, and

2. Bullet sizing is critical, in that most commercial bullets are TOO SMALL..... we get best results with bullets of at least .357" diameter, and my three 9mms dote on bullets of .358 and even .359". Use the largest diameter that will still chamber freely in YOUR 9mm, and ignore the "common wisdom" that says the 9mm needs .355/.356" bullets. The largest single cause of "leading" is bullets that are too small in diameter.

The suggested powder charges earlier in this thread should help your loads; the charge you tried is indeed too light.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

I agree completly with some caveats: For 45, 44, and 38 soft lead is available. I have never seen soft 9mm or 40, exception is 38-40 which would work. Bullet manufacturers just don't make soft bullets for hi pressure rounds. Perhaps I'll buy some round nose 38special bullets in .358 and give them a try. I get no leading with .356 or .357 with the loads I mentioned. I can't cast. I load and shoot too much and simply don't have the time to cast and lube.
You mentioned the largest cause of "leading" is bullets that are too small! thats where the Lee Factory crimp die comes in. That carbide sizer squished the case down, and the bullet inside it to a smaller diameter. My accuracy improved when I switched to taper crimping.
For those of you reading this and getting ready to try it out, let us know of your results. Bench rest and see what kind of groups you are getting.

 

[1SOW]

Hogdon's site told me that the OAL for the 125 gr RN oughtta be 1.169,

Actually, "that oal is what they tested" not the oal prescribed as the oal that "should be used" .
Lyman and other sources will indicate other oals that also can be used safely, and will likely be shorter oals.

As Jim Watson said, 4.2/4.3/4.4 grs would be a decent work-up for testing in your pistol.
If you test a little shorter oal--maybe 1.135"- 1.140" or so, starting at the low end or maybe .1 grs less will be safe.

True Blue and Unique don't burn efficiently with light loads. The 231/Hp-38 will work fine but may be a little "sooty".

 

[Rule3]

Here's the problem: The powders I have on hand are 231 (which I'd rather use, b/c it's open), Unique, and True Blue. So I need data that use one of these. I also have some 125 gr RN cast boolits. Until my moulds get here I must use these. Perhaps you can already see the problem. So the data I got from the Hogdon's site told me that the OAL for the 125 gr RN oughtta be 1.169, which is the max for the cartridge. OK, I can do that. Hogdon's didn't have a charge for the same boolit using 231, so I found one close to my boolit weight and reduced it by .1 gr. Just starting out, y'see. That charge was 2.8gr of 231.

Get to the range, and the rounds are nicely accurate, but they won't eject. Too small a charge, I reckon. Tried some reloads purchased at the range, and all works well.

So. Any ideas on some low-end charges, given the above parameters? In case it matters, the pistol is an S&W M&P 9.

Thanks for your help.

The start data you used is for the Hornady Action Pistol jacketed (HAP) bullet not for a lead bullet.

OAL is determined by the exact bullet you are using and your specific barrel,not one that happens to be the same weight

You are better off using the data for a the 125 LCN Better yet pick up a copy of Lymans CAST bullet manual if you plan on shooting a lot of lead projectiles.

As to hard cast or just cast, it is to distinguish it from softer swagged bullets. Size does matter for avoiding leading but harness of the bullet and velocity also play a part. Some hard cast bullets can be pushed as fast as jacketed with out gas checks. Softer ones can not and will melt and smear lead.

 

[greyling22]

Greyling wrote:

Interesting! During my struggles with 9mm lead I was very frustrated too. No where near what you wrote here though. What gun are you having problems with/shooting? What dies are you using? And are you using a Lee Factory Crimp die.
Out of both my glock and M&P 9 I can shoot under 2" with many of the bullets you mentioned at 35 feet.
I have never used hs6, 3n37, or wsf so I can't comment on those powders. I've never loaded .358 either. Most of my lead 9mm is hard cast, between 16-18 brinell hardness. Dardas are the only bullets I ordered in .357. So far the 147gr with 3.5gr of 231 is the most accurate load I have. The 125's are not far behind. I've given up on 115gr out of my m&p. More a problem of the gun rather than bullets.
What 125gr bullets do you have now? Try 3.7gr of 231. don't use a factory crimp die, use taper crimp only. Flare the case mouth enough for the bullet to slip in and start without shaving the bullet. The expander plug is a good idea, I use the lyman M expander die. Set the OAL as long as possible and still "thunk" into the barrel. Test and get back and post your results.
Don't push them fast, there have been heated discussions about this. A moderator "warned" me about my tone because I disagreed with him. [the carnage]!!
I've done a lot of experimentation with this and I am curious if this works for you. Be sure to mention the gun you are using, I have a Browning hi-power that I just can't shoot lead with no matter what I try. My next step is to slug the barrel, its the one gun I have not done that to.
Lead in 9mm is very challenging compared to 40 or 45.

I'm shooting an EAA witness elite match from back before they started using the rail and the cheaper adjustable sights. I ditched the FCD long ago, and went with the 38SW expander plug to keep the brass case from swagging the oversized lead bullet down.

I am using this mold http://leeprecision.com/6-cav-358-125-rf.html and sizing them down to .358. The barrel slugged out to .355-.356 and my OAL is about 1.07"

 

[sexybeast]

I hate to ask, but are you lubing the bullets?
It sounds like you are doing everything correct. Perhaps try shooting 50 or so out of another pistol and see if you are still leading and if your accuracy improves.
Before you do anything, clean the barrel. Then look at it, make sure its clean and shiney. Shoot some more out of it. If it leads up again then try some different bullets.
I know someone who had an elite match witness, he let me shoot it a few time. Great gun! For the price its a fantastic gun. He was using Weideners 122gr truncated bullets. He never mentioned any leading. And he was a good shooter, kicked my butt now and then

 

[greyling22]

I'm using lee's alox. I lube then, then I size them, then I lube them again.

The only other 9 I have tried my current loads out of didn't like the oversized bullets and wouldn't chamber.

I clean the barrel well every few hundred rounds. I run a brush wrapped in chore boy down the barrel until it looks spotless, then I run cleaning patches and solvent down the barrel. I have also used copper cleaner on a freshly cleaned barrel to check for copper fouling from a previous owner. (it was clean)

I'm not an expert like some of the folks around here, but I know my way around a press and gun pretty well and feel like I have tried almost everything I can without moving to a completely new gun, but 9 has pretty much eaten my lunch.

The only area I haven't extensively worked on is type of lube. The bullets I had purchased came with a hard lube that didn't really help with accuracy or leading. I keep thinking about whipping up one of the custom recipes floating around and trying that.

 

[beeenbag]

My favorite target load is a 124g LRN over 5.3g of unique. It chronographs at 1064 fps (5 shot average) out of a g19 (with lw barrel).

 

[ArchAngelCD]

My normal 9mm load with a 124/125gr LRN bullet is 4.0gr W231

With a 124gr FMJ bullet I charge 4.4gr W231.

Neither load is near the max but both cycle every 9mm pistol they have been shot in including a Beretta 92.

 

[sexybeast]

I'm using lee's alox. I lube then, then I size them, then I lube them again.

The only other 9 I have tried my current loads out of didn't like the oversized bullets and wouldn't chamber.

I clean the barrel well every few hundred rounds. I run a brush wrapped in chore boy down the barrel until it looks spotless, then I run cleaning patches and solvent down the barrel. I have also used copper cleaner on a freshly cleaned barrel to check for copper fouling from a previous owner. (it was clean)

I'm not an expert like some of the folks around here, but I know my way around a press and gun pretty well and feel like I have tried almost everything I can without moving to a completely new gun, but 9 has pretty much eaten my lunch.


The only area I haven't extensively worked on is type of lube. The bullets I had purchased came with a hard lube that didn't really help with accuracy or leading. I keep thinking about whipping up one of the custom recipes floating around and trying that.

Well then they are lubed! Some of the best shooters ["bullseye"] use a thin coat of lube and thats all thats needed. Some have their own special blends but "little" is usually better than "lots". When a bunch of the blue waxy stuff is used, most of it turns into smoke.
My next step would to buy some different bullets and see if they lead up your barrel. I have discovered Dardas bullets, good results so far, well priced, and they will size them to your request.
Like I said before, it sounds like you are doing everything right. My only thought is that maybe your cast bullets have an issue thats causing your problem. Experimentation, and trial and error.
As far as cleaning your barrel it sounds like you put quite a bit of effort into it.
I shot four matches in December before Christmas and only cleaned my barrel once. I just use some Hoppes and a brass brush. Scrub for about twenty second and then I use a "pull snake" through. Its mirror clean. Scrubbing your barrel with something "harsh" can actually damage it.
That CZ 75 clone is a fine gun. I would probably get one if I didn't have so many pistols already.
One other thought: Slug your barrel. Go to the Dardas site, if you buy some bullets then also buy a slug or two. Lube your barrel and push it through. Send it to Matt Dardas, He will measure it for free and this will help you know if your barrel is oversized. The more you know about what you are dealing with the better.