Interesting... How gun rights are linked to the Guantanamo detainees' lawsuit!

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Preacherman

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From National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200404200903.asp):

April 20, 2004, 9:03 a.m.

Explaining Eisentrager

The Second Amendment is for individual gun owners.

By Dave Kopel

As the Supreme Court considers whether the U.S. Constitution protects the prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay — it hears oral arguments today in the case — the central issue is the meaning of a case involving illegal combatants from World War II: Johnson v. Eisentrager.

No one knows if Eisentrager will be interpreted broadly enough for the government to win the Guantanamo case. But the more the Supreme Court studies Eisentrager, the better it will be for the civil liberties of American citizens — because Eisentrager clearly teaches that the Second Amendment protects a right held by individuals.

In May 1945, Germany surrendered to the Allies. Yet some German soldiers in China continued to fight alongside the Japanese army, until Japan surrendered. The American army captured the German soldiers, and tried them by court-martial in China as war criminals. Because the German national government had surrendered, the Germans who continued to fight were violating the laws of war.

The Germans argued that their courts-martial violated their Fifth Amendment due-process rights. Their attorneys pointed out that the Fifth Amendment is not by its terms limited to American citizens. The amendment says that "no person" shall be put on trial for a felony unless he is first indicted by a grand jury; "[n]or shall any person...be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

After the Supreme Court heard the case, Justice Robert Jackson's majority opinion held that the Germans had no Fifth Amendment rights. Fifth Amendment rights for illegal combatants would lead to absurd results, Justice Jackson explained.

First of all, the Fifth Amendment grand-jury requirement has an express exception for "cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger." In other words, a soldier or active-duty militiaman can be court-martialed, even though he has not been indicted by a grand jury. If the Germans could invoke the Fifth Amendment, then they would have rights not enjoyed even by Americans in military service.

Moreover, wrote Justice Jackson, if the Germans could invoke the Fifth Amendment, they could just as well invoke the Second Amendment and the rest of the Bill of Rights. This would lead to the ridiculous result of American soldiers — out of obedience to the Second Amendment — being forbidden to disarm the enemy:

If the Fifth Amendment confers its rights on all the world except Americans engaged in defending it, the same must be true of the companion civil-rights Amendments, for none of them is limited by its express terms, territorially or as to persons. Such a construction would mean that during military occupation irreconcilable enemy elements, guerrilla fighters, and "were-wolves" could require the American Judiciary to assure them freedoms of speech, press, and assembly as in the First Amendment, right to bear arms as in the Second, security against "unreasonable" searches and seizures as in the Fourth, as well as rights to jury trial as in the Fifth and Sixth Amendments.

The gun-prohibition lobby has long argued that the Second Amendment "right of the people" protects only the power of American state governments to have militias. This argument is not consistent with the court's opinion in Eisentrager. The "irreconcilable enemy elements, guerrilla fighters, and 'were-wolves'" in Justice Jackson's hypothetical are obviously not American state governments. They are individuals, and as individuals would have Second Amendment rights, if the Second Amendment applied to non-Americans.

Nor are the characters in Justice Jackson's hypothetical militia members. A militia is an organized force under government control; in contrast, "guerrilla fighters" or "were-wolves" are individuals or small groups functioning in areas beyond the reach of any friendly government.

The legal distinction between militia and guerrillas was well known during World War II. As Stephen Halbrook details in his book Target Switzerland, the Swiss made extensive plans for their militia forces — consisting of almost the entire able-bodied adult male population — to resist a German invasion to the last man. But the Swiss government also warned its citizens not to engage in guerrilla warfare on their own; the militiamen fighting the Germans would be entitled to the protection of the rules of war and international conventions, but guerrillas would not.

Having served as a judge at the Nuremburg trials, Justice Jackson was presumably familiar with the distinctions in the international laws of war between guerillas and soldiers/militia.

Johnson v. Eistentrager was, despite its unusual circumstances, a typical Supreme Court Second Amendment case. While the court has issued only a few opinions discussing the Second Amendment in detail, the court has written many opinions in which the Second Amendment is mentioned briefly, in order to make a point about something else. And in these mentions, the Second Amendment is overwhelmingly considered a right conferred upon individuals, not state-sponsored militias.
 
Is there a definitive answer whether the BOR extends to non-citizens?

Or is that just an assertion always made by the left?
 
My view-MY RANT!

I believe it is the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA which includes the BOR. The WHOLE BALL OF WAX applies ONLY to those of us who are citizens of the USA.

NOBODY born in London, Tokyo, Moscow, Mexico City or any other country have ANY rights under the Constitution of the USA.

FURTHERMORE, they DO NOT gain those rights ONLY BECAUSE THEY CAN SWIM THE RIO GRAND or some other such ILLEGAL entry method.

LEGAL immigrants MAY have SOME rights, however.

That is MY BELIEF and I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on tv.
 
I think it's easy, IMO, to make the case that they do not have rights as granted under the US constitution.

A more appropriate debate might be to argue whether they are entitled to the rights accorded to POWs.
 
I believe it is the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA which includes the BOR. The WHOLE BALL OF WAX applies ONLY to those of us who are citizens of the USA.

I think the Declaration of Independance and the Constitution recognize that all men (and women) are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain rights. That is regardless of where you come from provided that you haven't committed some more serious crimes. However, the BOR protects, doesn't grant, those rights, and I believe this means for US citizens and those who are in the process of becoming US citizens. We might recognize that people from outside of the US have those natural rights, but it doesn't necessarily mean it is the US govt's job to protect the rights of non-US people.

I too am not a lawyer. That's just my own take on it. If people from outside the US want the same protections for their natural rights, as the US Constitution and its Bill of Rights provides, they can work to have their own governments protect them, or they can start the process to "legally" emigrate to the US. Fair enough?
 
[T]he CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA which includes the BOR … applies ONLY to those of us who are citizens of the USA.

So now the Constitution grants rights? Whatever happened to those inherent, natural, God-given, etc. rights that the Constitution merely recognizes?

~G. Fink
 
Enemy combatants fighting for a terrorist organization should be shot, not handcuffed and transported to Cuba. Enemy combatants fighting on behalf of a Nation/State should be held until such time that the conflict has been resolved and then promptly returned to that Nation/State for either trial or release. US Citizens fighting for a terrorist organization should be arrested and tried, retaining all their Constitutional protections. US Citizens fighting on behalf of a Nation/State should be tried for treason and shot.

Now, if the SC would just take my calls...
 
It is my understanding that the Bill of Rights protects only Americans. It is also my understanding that many Americans are being held in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
 
It is also my understanding that many Americans are being held in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
w4rma, your source for this information, please? I certainly haven't heard any such report from the International Red Cross or other neutral organizations that have inspected the camp there... :confused:
 
OK...how many Americans ARE being held at Guantanamo? I thought the answer was two (2), is that incorrect?
Sources please...

I just remember the first one captured with the Taliban in Afghanistan and seem to remember one (1) since then...That's all I remember hearing about. Even that was because of a story I read about detailing interrogation methods used by the Israelis and how they applied that to these guys at our marine base down south...and according to THAT they were treating them ALL THE SAME...and I agree with that. I don't think you get to have it both ways...You either take the hit from one or the other, you don't get to choose your OWN finest hour and use that as your "new" deal...

M16.gif
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Right.

I'm an immigrant.

So is Oleg.

So is Nicki.

I was an illegal immigrant for three years, because the INS couldn't unf@$# itself.

So why don't you come here and TAKE my illegally owned weapons (since I have no rights) and kick me out?

Go ahead. I'm waiting.

EVERYONE on US soil is innocent until proven guilty. That includes aliens not yet proven to be illegal or felons.

As to those captured overseas, it's polite, and avoids ACTS OF WAR, to be sure who they are before the shooting starts.

Those of you capable of reading simple words might recall a number of Japanese Americans and Iraqi Americans in the relevant conflicts, on vacation and drafted at gunpoint. But hey, why not shoot them? They aren't real Americans, right?

Unlike 99.9% of you, I HAD TO PROVE I WAS LITERATE, NOT A COMMUNIST, NOT A THREAT, WAS "SUFFICIENTLY FAMILIAR" WITH THE US FORM OF GOVERNMENT, AND GAINFULLY EMPLOYED TO BECOME A CITIZEN.

It wasn't handed to me because I was born here.

So just maybe, even WITHOUT MY NINETEEN #@$%^&^ YEARS IN THE ARMY AND AIR FORCE, I happen to think I'm a little bit BETTER than the average citizen.

If they're on US soil, they get a trial. If they're legal residents or citizens and we grab them, they get a trial.

If we bring them here from elsewhere and they're not Americans...that's up to the courts to decide.

But don't suggest in my presence that anyone isn't "entitled" to their God given rights under our Constitution.

Because I swore an oath to defend that Constitution last Sunday when I re-enlisted. It's rather fresh in my mind.

Did you ever stop to think that treating everyone the way we believe is the best way to bring them around?
 
Well...unfortunately, that's coming very close to change. With the ability of the government agencies to co-operate , share information without due process, and mere "suspician" being enough to"profile" and detain people most anywhere and anytime, it's a little dicey these days. The detainees down south are getting held without rights as citizens OR POWs...It's a "new" approach to handling people and it's becoming more acceptable the longer it goes on...After the camps for the Japanese and then the more recent goings-on, you'd think things would be different...After all, haven't we "learned " all the lessons possible from our Tx of those we've held in the past?
I mean the relatives and friends of those we speak so highly of, and as their past is adopted by so many as being closer to the true nature of spirituality, we graciously "reserved" plots for them to "continue" those traditions we so despised originally. Same thing, different tribes...we'll see...

The world is getting smaller and smaller...if we don't stop fighting each other, none of us are gonna' win...pick the batlleground, win the battle and go home to heal...

g2
 
Enemy combatants fighting for a terrorist organization should be shot, not handcuffed and transported to Cuba.
US Citizens fighting for a terrorist organization should be arrested and tried, retaining all their Constitutional protections.

Unfortunately, this is somewhat problematic when US citizens are being called enemy combatants.

Frankly, I'm just rather disturbed by the attitutes of many when it comes to how these people are dealt with. Remember, folks, we're setting precedents that may still be followed long down the line when, possibly, anyone who has a gun is considered a terrorist. I think that everyone should have a trial and the protections of law.

Due process is a good thing.
 
Unfortunately, this is somewhat problematic when US citizens are being called enemy combatants.

This is not a problem at all if you follow my solution. Note that I did not say "Enemy combatants who happen to be US Citizens," but seperated the two. As far as I'm concerned, the two are mutually exclusive. Semantics is to humans what curiosity is to cats.
 
Does anybody remember the FACT that there were NO US citizens when the constitution was written and ratified? There were NO US citizens until the alleged ratification (under duress in 1868) of the 14th amendment. People were citizens of their respective states. Those who were not citizens of any specific state were still persons who enjoyed the fullness of their natural rights and the observance and protection of those rights by the US government according to the extent of authorities granted to the US government by the people in the states of this union by the act of ratifying the constitution. Persons, in fact, means persons.

The following is only my opinion which is, as stated on someone's sig line here, just as irrelevant as yours. ;) Two grains of salt are recommended before proceeding...

Notions of "citizenship", what it is and how the law applies to it remain ill-defined to this day. This poses many difficulties regarding the application of the law. Moreover, the lack of understanding of citizenship puts government, any government, in an awkward position. Some believe that citizenship can be imposed. In America, if you are born here you are automatically a US citizen. Others view citizenship as a contractual arrangement which encumbers each party to the contract with specific duties and obligations. How all this works in America has generally been assumed without ever really being defined. If citizenship is indeed a contractual relationship, the government will come up with the short end of the stick. This would severely limit it's power and decimate a good deal of it's laws.

If citizenship can be imposed then we are merely chattel. We are slaves. The property of the state.

This is one reason why many laws and USSC rulings seem so nebulous. It's why we have "emanations from penumbras". With a clear concise working definition of citizenship it really becomes a game of who can bluff the best. With a clear definition of citizenship the US government would have it's hands tied preventing much of what it does and what it takes for granted as authority.

You, on the other hand, would have certain clear points of contract that would obviate what constitutes a breach of contract. This would necessitate a dissolution of that contract making it null and void. 9/11 is a clear example where the government failed to provide defense. Regardless of foreknowledge or lack of foreknowledge of the attack, our defense systems remained in limbo for nearly an hour after the initial attack. This failure would constitute breach of contract and ALL of the federal government would be in the unemployment line.

Of course, without such clear definitions of citizenship or points of contract, there are no consequences to the government for failure to perform. Neither are they required to answer for their failure to perform. From the time of Alexander Hamilton to Lincoln to this very day it is clear that those in government have done and will continue to do all they can to put maintaining centralized government, union and democracy at the top of all other priorities. Nothing matters so much as the preservation of government. If you read the initial post concerning the fine distinctions in the Eisentrager case concerning the differentiations between persons in the militia and persons identified as guerrilla you will notice that the deciding factor is attachment to government.

Chipper
 
Notions of "citizenship", what it is and how the law applies to it remain ill-defined to this day.

Not so.

14th Amendment to the Constitution (1868). Section 1 of this amendment declares that "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

American citizenship acquired at birth in a foreign nation is determined by the law that is in effect at the time the child is born. The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, amended in 1965, 1976, and 1978, gives the requirements.

For a child born on or after December 24, 1952, both parents must have been American citizens. In addition, one parent must have lived in the United States for ten years (and for at least five years after the age of 14) before the birth of the child.

Citizenship is one of the few areas of federal law that actually is clear and easy to understand.
 
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