Interesting primer article

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bullseye308

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Ran across this and had some thoughts. https://www.outdoorlife.com/cartrid...UPNMxUZUNoM4woQQAzItCLSRuWv8QhJcG88ni39r1M0DU

If this is safer to make and less hazardous, is it plausible that more companies may startup using this compound or one similar? This could be a game changer as permitting requirements should be lessened I’d think. Maybe someone will disassemble one and hit it with an xrf gun to determine the composition and makeup percentages. Maybe catalyst primers will be available to all and everyone will put them out, even new upstart companies.
 
I do have some concerns with this new priming compound, which has to do with it's usable lifespan. How long before it becomes inert? Or worse, is there a chance it could self ignite? I think that is doubtful, but I don't know how they can prevent deterioration of the nitrocellulose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrocellulose
Nitrocellulose was found to gradually decompose, releasing nitric acid and further catalyzing the decomposition (eventually into a flammable powder). Decades later, storage at low temperatures was discovered as a means of delaying these reactions indefinitely. The great majority of films produced during the early 20th century are thought to have been lost either through this accelerating, self-catalyzed disintegration or through studio warehouse fires. Salvaging old films is a major problem for film archivists (see film preservation).

Will it be more or less sensitive in 20 or 30 years? Will it have an expiration date?
 
I do have some concerns with this new priming compound, which has to do with it's usable lifespan. How long before it becomes inert? Or worse, is there a chance it could self ignite? I think that is doubtful, but I don't know how they can prevent deterioration of the nitrocellulose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrocellulose
Nitrocellulose was found to gradually decompose, releasing nitric acid and further catalyzing the decomposition (eventually into a flammable powder). Decades later, storage at low temperatures was discovered as a means of delaying these reactions indefinitely. The great majority of films produced during the early 20th century are thought to have been lost either through this accelerating, self-catalyzed disintegration or through studio warehouse fires. Salvaging old films is a major problem for film archivists (see film preservation).

Will it be more or less sensitive in 20 or 30 years? Will it have an expiration date?
A nitrocellulose compound would last realistically as long as your powder. A product with a 20 year life would be acceptable in my book, and rotating stock should keep you in the game.
 
From the link:

Federal is planning on switching all of its centerfire ammunition—rifle, pistol, and shotgun—to Catalyst primers over the next five years.

Sounds like Federal is 'all-in'
 
"The fact that various elements of the U.S. government are using ammo with Catalyst lends the new primer tremendous credibility."

Not really. We're talking about a body of persons which has made some of the most catastrophic and malignantly harmful decisions in history (the Tuskegee Syphilis experiments come immediately to mind). While it's easy to understand how lead can be harmful - the Romans stand in history as a glaring and often misunderstood example - the effects of bismuth and aluminum are not as well understood. For ref:

Klotz, Katrin et al. “The Health Effects of Aluminum Exposure.” Deutsches Arzteblatt international vol. 114,39 (2017): 653-659. doi:10.3238/arztebl.2017.0653

"The reference values for the internal aluminum load (<15 µg/L in urine, <5 µg/L in serum) are especially likely to be exceeded in persons with occupational exposure. The biological tolerance value for occupational exposure is 50 µg of aluminum per gram of creatinine in the urine. For aluminum welders and workers in the aluminum industry, declining performance in neuropsychological tests (attention, learning, memory) has been found only with aluminum concentrations exceeding 100 µg/g creatinine in the urine; manifest encephalopathy with dementia was not found. Elevated aluminum content has been found in the brains of persons with Alzheimer’s disease. It remains unclear whether this is a cause or an effect of the disease. There is conflicting evidence on carcinogenicity. The contention that the use of aluminum-containing antiperspirants promotes breast cancer is not supported by consistent scientific data."

Conclusion:
"The internal aluminum load is measured in terms of the concentration of aluminum in urine and blood. Keeping these concentrations below the tolerance values prevents the development of manifest and subclinical signs of aluminum toxicity. Large-scale epidemiologic studies of the relationship between aluminum-containing antiperspirants and the risk of breast cancer would be desirable."

Summers WK. Bismuth Toxicity Masquerading as Alzheimer's Dementia. J Alzheimers Dis. 1998 Mar;1(1):57-59. doi: 10.3233/jad-1998-1104. PMID: 12214012.

"The possibility of bismuth encephalopathy needs to be considered in the differential diagnosis of possible Alzheimer's dementia."

This new technology holds some promise but let's not jump in with both feet cheering just yet. Do we wake up 30 years from now with a generation and a half of shooters - military veterans, police officers, hunters, recreational sport shooters - suffering severe brain atrophy or misdiagnosed with dementia from bismuth and aluminum exposure only to say, "Well, looks like the other side was right and firearms are just too dangerous for public use. Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in - it's for your own good and the health of others."
 
Maybe catalyst primers will be available to all and everyone will put them out, even new upstart companies.
I imagine the formula is patent protected. I wouldn't count on Federal being too generous in sharing the fruits of their labors.

If I'd invested the time and money to develop a new technology, I wouldn't be in a huge hurry to share my profits.
 
I imagine the formula is patent protected. I wouldn't count on Federal being too generous in sharing the fruits of their labors.

If I'd invested the time and money to develop a new technology, I wouldn't be in a huge hurry to share my profits.
"The fact that various elements of the U.S. government are using ammo with Catalyst lends the new primer tremendous credibility."

Not really. We're talking about a body of persons which has made some of the most catastrophic and malignantly harmful decisions in history (the Tuskegee Syphilis experiments come immediately to mind). While it's easy to understand how lead can be harmful - the Romans stand in history as a glaring and often misunderstood example - the effects of bismuth and aluminum are not as well understood. For ref:

Klotz, Katrin et al. “The Health Effects of Aluminum Exposure.” Deutsches Arzteblatt international vol. 114,39 (2017): 653-659. doi:10.3238/arztebl.2017.0653

"The reference values for the internal aluminum load (<15 µg/L in urine, <5 µg/L in serum) are especially likely to be exceeded in persons with occupational exposure. The biological tolerance value for occupational exposure is 50 µg of aluminum per gram of creatinine in the urine. For aluminum welders and workers in the aluminum industry, declining performance in neuropsychological tests (attention, learning, memory) has been found only with aluminum concentrations exceeding 100 µg/g creatinine in the urine; manifest encephalopathy with dementia was not found. Elevated aluminum content has been found in the brains of persons with Alzheimer’s disease. It remains unclear whether this is a cause or an effect of the disease. There is conflicting evidence on carcinogenicity. The contention that the use of aluminum-containing antiperspirants promotes breast cancer is not supported by consistent scientific data."

Conclusion:
"The internal aluminum load is measured in terms of the concentration of aluminum in urine and blood. Keeping these concentrations below the tolerance values prevents the development of manifest and subclinical signs of aluminum toxicity. Large-scale epidemiologic studies of the relationship between aluminum-containing antiperspirants and the risk of breast cancer would be desirable."

Summers WK. Bismuth Toxicity Masquerading as Alzheimer's Dementia. J Alzheimers Dis. 1998 Mar;1(1):57-59. doi: 10.3233/jad-1998-1104. PMID: 12214012.

"The possibility of bismuth encephalopathy needs to be considered in the differential diagnosis of possible Alzheimer's dementia."

This new technology holds some promise but let's not jump in with both feet cheering just yet. Do we wake up 30 years from now with a generation and a half of shooters - military veterans, police officers, hunters, recreational sport shooters - suffering severe brain atrophy or misdiagnosed with dementia from bismuth and aluminum exposure only to say, "Well, looks like the other side was right and firearms are just too dangerous for public use. Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in - it's for your own good and the health of others."

As a retired Fed from a family of Feds, I should take exception to that. But somehow I can’t. The longer I worked there, the more libertarian I became.

As for aluminum and Alzheimer’s…We started hearing that possible connection years ago at which time I no longer recalled with fondness those school lunches my mom securely encased in Reynold’s Wrap.
 
I imagine the formula is patent protected. I wouldn't count on Federal being too generous in sharing the fruits of their labors.

If I'd invested the time and money to develop a new technology, I wouldn't be in a huge hurry to share my profits.
I think I’m correct here…patent applications are public filings and any secrets are no longer secret. But they are protected from third party use for 20 years unless licensed by the patent holder. Trade secrets are on the other hand “secret” provided the creator maintains them as such.

Another system created by Federal bureaucrats.
 
OK - I read the article, and it is very informative. While I am firmly in the camp of 'Let's wait and see how things go....' I have several observations:

1) Yes, it proports is safer, for the environment, shipping, and Federal employees (to make).
2) Yes, it is cheaper to make
3) Yes, it will make Federal a butt ton of money. Buried in the article is a little comment that states (in part) "....the amount of primer compound can be varied biased upon the projectile being used...". I translate that into primers for each application with varying amounts of compound in each....which may or may not be a good thing for us who reload. Think about this: we have, what...8 different types of primers now...and they are all scarce. What do you think scarcity will be like when 1/2 the primer manufacturers decide to make, say 30 different versions? And what if you accidently load a SPP made for a .380 into a .40?

And finally, if this succeeds Vista will pull CCI onboard in a heartbeat....possibly shutting down production lines to switch over...creating another shortage of market components. Fun times all over again.
 
OK - I read the article, and it is very informative. While I am firmly in the camp of 'Let's wait and see how things go....' I have several observations:

1) Yes, it proports is safer, for the environment, shipping, and Federal employees (to make).
2) Yes, it is cheaper to make
3) Yes, it will make Federal a butt ton of money. Buried in the article is a little comment that states (in part) "....the amount of primer compound can be varied biased upon the projectile being used...". I translate that into primers for each application with varying amounts of compound in each....which may or may not be a good thing for us who reload. Think about this: we have, what...8 different types of primers now...and they are all scarce. What do you think scarcity will be like when 1/2 the primer manufacturers decide to make, say 30 different versions? And what if you accidently load a SPP made for a .380 into a .40?

And finally, if this succeeds Vista will pull CCI onboard in a heartbeat....possibly shutting down production lines to switch over...creating another shortage of market components. Fun times all over again.
Yeah and let me add a Federal bureaucratic bungler conspiracy angle to this for @GeoDudeFlorida.

The FTC (and DOJ) looks at M&A from a consumer protection standpoint. Anti-competitiveness is a sure deal killer. Even regional harm to the consumer can kill a national deal or cause some different arrangement in that particular geographic area. Requiring a spin-off of a portion of the proposed final company is also common.

BUT (and here’s the conspiracy) because this would involve bad gun stuff, an even fatally flawed M&A would be approved or perhaps encouraged hoping the production and availability of bad gun stuff would be reduced. Bureaucrats’ revenge.
 
A nitrocellulose compound would last realistically as long as your powder. A product with a 20 year life would be acceptable in my book, and rotating stock should keep you in the game.

I still use both powder and primers that are older that 20 years. I think a lot of reluctance comes from the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”, crowd.

They are slow to accept because they are waiting for all the problems/side effects to be realized and addressed.
 
As a retired Fed from a family of Feds, I should take exception to that. But somehow I can’t. The longer I worked there, the more libertarian I became.

As for aluminum and Alzheimer’s…We started hearing that possible connection years ago at which time I no longer recalled with fondness those school lunches my mom securely encased in Reynold’s Wrap.

Yeah, between that and the protective hat I've worn to protect me from the governments satellite ray beams, I'm really worried......but about what I can't remember.
 
Yeah and let me add a Federal bureaucratic bungler conspiracy angle to this for @GeoDudeFlorida.

The FTC (and DOJ) looks at M&A from a consumer protection standpoint. Anti-competitiveness is a sure deal killer. Even regional harm to the consumer can kill a national deal or cause some different arrangement in that particular geographic area. Requiring a spin-off of a portion of the proposed final company is also common.

BUT (and here’s the conspiracy) because this would involve bad gun stuff, an even fatally flawed M&A would be approved or perhaps encouraged hoping the production and availability of bad gun stuff would be reduced. Bureaucrats’ revenge.
Well, to be honest, I didn't propose any kind of conspiracy. Bureaucracies don't need to be malicious to be malignant; and by that I mean pernicious, harmful without intent to be harmful by it's nature. As a famous lawyer once said, "The process is the punishment." I don't want to delve any deeper except to say, I was NOT talking about a conspiracy, I was talking about the nature of bureaucratic process as it applies to consumer goods. The people who brought us "lead free gasoline" certainly thought they were doing something very good and beneficial. How were they to know MTBE and ETBE, once in the water supplies, were far more hazardous and far more difficult to remove from the environment than lead? Thus we have "ethanol" to replace MTBE and ETBE which is a safer(?) and better for the environment(again, ?) alternative oxygenator. No conspiracy required.
 
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Regarding primers, gasoline, vaccines, or whatever, we really won't know the long term effects for a long time.

These "new" primers may or may not be good for our health in the long term. They may also not have a long storage life, which could be bad for reloading and shooting in general. How many of us have ammo from five, ten, twenty, or more years ago that still functions as it should? Will ammo made with these new primers do as well? Only time will tell.

chris
 
Well, to be honest, I didn't propose any kind of conspiracy. Bureaucracies don't need to be malicious to be malignant; and by that I mean pernicious, harmful without intent to be harmful by it's nature. As a famous lawyer once said, "The process is the punishment." I don't want to delve any deeper except to say, I was NOT talking about a conspiracy, I was talking about the nature of bureaucratic process as it applies to consumer goods. The people who brought us "lead free gasoline" certainly thought they were doing something very good and beneficial. How were they to know MTBE and ETBE, once in the water supplies, were far more hazardous and far more difficult to remove from the environment than lead? Thus we have "ethanol" to replace MTBE and ETBE which is a safer(?) and better for the environment(again, ?) alternative oxygenator. No conspiracy required.
My lame attempt at humor, sorry...I didn’t say you proposed a conspiracy...I proposed one for you, jokingly.
 
Catalyst primers don't generate the same amount gas as current primers, so I suspect these new primers will be relegated to factory ammunition and not made available to the hobbyist reloader. Changing the chemistry and performance of a primer could have unintended consequences for those that load their own.

Edited to add that the article the OP linked to is 3 and half years old.
 
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that the article the OP linked to is 3 and half years old.
I thought I remembered the Catalyst moniker.
And I still haven’t seen any. It’s almost like they are so busy being busy, they don’t have time to mess with success.
And I hope they don’t.
I hate change.;)

For all the cost of this hullabaloo they might have hired a few more primer cake spreaders. I’m sure the cup and anvil machines can out work them…
 
I am going to wait before I jump into the latest "end of history" primer. Concerns will be erosion, temperature sensitivity, barrel deposits, and shelf life. There have been lots of unsuccessful primer compound attempts, and pretty much, non corrosive primer cake development ended in the 1950's because lead styphanate primer cake did everything well. Elemental lead in front of the face of the shooter was a non concern back then, now it is much more important and driving the development of these lead free priming compounds.

Live long enough, be lied to enough times by advertisers, and you too will learn to sit on the fence and let the early adopters crash and burn.
 
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