Interesting read about heavy recoil springs

[JeffC]

Read the April issue of SWAT, had an article on the MEU(SOC) 1911...
I read at one time a 22lb. recoil spring was being used in the guns but due to complications they went back down to an 18lber.

Wouldn't a spring that heavy beat the slide stop holes in the frame over time?

What happens to those who shoot 1911s in 10mm? Frames hold up okay?

 

[Brian D.]

Jeff, I tend to agree that at some point there's such a thing as a recoil spring being too heavy for the health of the frame and slide, but I ain't guru enough to know just what that weight is.

With my Delta (which probably is never gonna get shot all that much relatively speaking) I'm using a 22lb spring, plus a shock buff when at the range. The buff comes out if the Delta is being CCW'ed. The first buff showed enough wear to change out at about 700-800 rds., using factory ammo which is hotter than .40s&w, but not up in CorBon or Double Tap territory. Tried using a 24lb recoil spring, but empties were kinda dribbling out the ejection port, with or without a shock buff. Also felt like that 24 pounder was just too frickin' heavy; dang hard to lock back the slide manually, and field stripping/reassembly was no longer fun a'tall.

Got to imagine those 24 and 26 pound springs are tough on slide stops and the holes, maybe other parts too. But Tunerman is really the one to ask.

 

[45auto]

Good article.

They were breaking recoil spring plugs with the heavy springs.
And I thought 18lbs was heavy.

 

[1911Tuner]

Springy Things

Hey hey Jeffro mah fren! Where you been hidin' at?

Yes! Recoil springs that heavy are rough on the slidestop pin, the holes in the frame, and the lower barrel lug. There's also the issue of the slide outrunnin' the magazine.

Tunefucious say:

Honorable pistol tweaker in search of answer to frame damage from horrible 10MM should rediscover firing pin stop that late, great John Moses
used in early 1911 pistols. Small-radius stop and 23-25 pound mainspring
allow use of 20-pound recoil spring without worry over frame. Pistol also may
see accuracy benefits because of delayed barrel unlock timing.

Go forth and prosper...

 

[Jim K]

The ghost of John Browning appeared to me in a dream and said, in his soft Mormon way, "Please tell the gentlemen out there to stop trying to use ammunition in my pistol that I never intended it to handle. I also made an automatic rifle and a big machinegun if people want to shoot big powerful cartridges. The Model 1911 is a good pistol, and I am very proud I was able to serve my country by designing it, but it was made for the .45 ACP, not the .50 machinegun round."

Then the ghost faded and I woke up. I wonder when some other folks are going to wake up also.

Jim

 

[1911Tuner]

Ghosts

The Ghost of John Moses Browning said:

"Please tell the gentlemen out there to stop trying to use ammunition in my pistol that I never intended it to handle."
******************************

Amen, Mr. Browning.

Will they never learn? :banghead:

 

[Brian D.]

Drop the ouija board and chill!

Hey Tuner and JK. Many of the Deltas are holding up fairly well with all but the "nuclear" loads, if what I've seen and been told is true, so if JMB wants to spin in his grave I ain't gonna try to stop him.

Been doing a little experimenting with springs and such since acquiring the DE. Ejection was too stout with a 20 lb'er so the 22 was tried. Then the 24, at which point all but the Winchester Silvertips barely made it out the port. Hence, by the same kind of reasoning Goldilocks used I settled on the 22 lb. recoil spring. With a buff for range work, without it when toting the gun.

Don't have any need for the extra power of the 10mm around here. However, thought it might be nice to have at hand when traveling where there are four-legged critters that are almost as dangerous as the urban bipedal predators seen locally, and several hundred pounds larger. "There are bears in the woods", as the old song says.

Yeah, there are other choices for the "wilds", especially of the wheelgun variety. But I shoot a 1911 way better, dang it!

I really don't suspect too many people will shoot their 10mm 1911s to rags anytime soon. And of the few that do, hey, some folks can break an anvil with a rubber mallet.

 

[Black Snowman]

http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/10tech.html has some great info on the subject under the I. General 1911 Issues & Proposed Solutions section.

When shopping for a project 1911 I was drawn to the Delta Elite as a good choice since I knew from Sean's site that it would need work right from the start and I have a lot of trouble with "fixing" things that aren't broke.

 

[1911Tuner]

Wee-Gee Boards

Brian...A lotta folks don't know that John Moses was also a crackerjack songwriter. I just happen to have one of his works in hand. Here's a verse or two...

Key of "G".

Intro:

"Well my fever is high, and I'm sufferin' with a cold...
And I'll soon be walkin' on the streets of gold,
So I'll tell ya boy...Don'tcha monkey with my pistol when I'm gone.

If ya monkey with my pistol, I'm-a tellin' you a fact.
My big white ghost'll come-a sneeeeeakin' back,
and I'll haint ya boy...
If ya monkey with my pistol when I'm gone...

I'll soon be leavin' this world of sin, and one purty pistol with alla you men,
and I'll tell ya boy...Don'tcha monkey with my pistol when I'm gone.
If ya monkey with my pistol, I'm-a tellin' you true...
Some dark night I'll scare the hell outta you!
I'll haint ya boy...
If ya monkey with my pistol when I'm gone...
********************

So...ya'll go on and monkey with it. I ain't a-gonna do it!

 

[Jim K]

"Many of the Deltas are holding up fairly well with all but the "nuclear" loads"

But isn't the use of "nuclear loads" the reason folks go to those guns? Isn't the idea to "push the envelope" and then argue about why the guns come apart?

Jim

 

[JeffC]

I started out not knowing or even caring about what weight recoil spring I used... Then I hopped aboard the "You gotta have a 18lb spring to shoot hardball" train.... Then I watched as my baby bro' caused my perfect working 1911 to continuosly stove pipe and jam like I never seen .... So I hopped off that train. Then I met Tuner on the internet and even a few other guys that convinced me lighter is better.....

Now I read that the Corps observed problems related to the 22lb recoil spring in their MEU(SOC) pistols and they stepped down to an 18lber.....

WOW! I just had to share that with you guys...

Tuner, I've been busy revamping my collection..... been trying to create new problems for you to help me with .

 

[1911Tuner]

Nuclear

Keenan...There you go makin' sense again!

Just so. One point that's often overlooked is that...the higher the operating pressures, the more important good barrel fit becomes. When the envelope is pushed that far beyond what the gun was designed for, it's a good idea to insure that all three locking lugs are pulling their weight in the horizontal plane. That only occasionally happens with a production gun, and worse...sometimes the strongest, most supported lug...#1... isn't bearing any of the brunt, leaving it to 2 and 3 to handle things. Not ideal, but not as much of an issue with 230/800/18,000 cup as it is with the average pressures and recoil forces that the Big Ten generates when loaded to its potential.

Then there's the matter of vertical lug engagement...Also not usually optimum
in production guns. many only manage about 50% of the total engagement
area, assuming that all three are bearing equally in the horizontal lockup...
which they usually ain't.

Of course...in time, the lugs will pound themselves into equality, unless one or more shear off first...which can happen. By the time that they do, however...the headspace is likely at or near maximum specs. AND...when headspace increases due to lug setback...it's in the wrong direction, allowing the case to back out of the chamber, exposing the barely supported area forward of the web.

I'll tell ya boy...Don'tcha monkey with my pistol when I'm gone!

 

[Riss]

As an aside to the spring weight issue. I find it hard to rack the action of my 1911 Springfield. It's all factory and maybe has a couple of hundred of rounds through it. Commander length with the "nite" sights. Is the hard opening me, the gun, or just the way it is with a 1911.

 

[JeffC]

The 1911 can be a tick difficult to rack the slide but it depends on a number of items.

Recoil spring weight
Mainspring weight
Geometry of firing pin stop

Shorter guns would be even more difficult due to stiffer recoil springs.

 

[Clark]

I have a 42 pound on a 45 Patriot and a 48 pound on a Glock 19 9mm.
The mag springs have to be doubled up to push the next round up as fast as the recoil spring can accelerate the slide, or the chamber will come up empty.
The double mag spring mean the average thumbs cannot load the mag with ammo.
42 pound tripple recoil spring assembly means the average man does not have the grip force to chamber a round.

I suppose one could put pull loop on the slide and make a gas pressure assist mag spring....

 

[Peter M. Eick]

A wise man commented to me that I could either beat up my 10mm 1911's to the rear or to the front. My choice. He suggested that I try and split the difference and offload a bit of the beating to the hammer spring via an EGW flat base fireing pin stop.

Since then I have come down from a 28 lbs recoil sprng to a 20 and next spring will be an 18 lbs.

He was right.

 

[JeffC]

Clark... a 42lb spring???

What kinda mad experiment you got going????

 

[Onmilo]

I use 20 and 22 pound test weight recoil springs in 10mm 1911 and CZ type pistols.
Springs in that weight are unneccessary for .45 acp caliber pistols.

I have been using 18 pound test weight recoil springs in .45 acp caliber pistols with excellent results but the springs are chrome silicone wire, not conventional music spring wire or stainless steel wire.

Overall I think the Military got it right specifying a 16 pound test weight recoil spring for the 1911 .45 acp caliber pistols and you will never go wrong selecting a replacement spring in that weight regardless of the material used to produce the spring.