Interesting "what if" WWII rifle question.
- Thread starter mshootnit
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Considering that the US Army basically adopted the doctrine of the riflemen protecting the machinegunner and Marksmen after WWII, i think that speaks for itself.
WW2 was about so much more than the infantry soldier.
My Grandpa was commanding 2 heavy mortars during the war.
He never even fired a rifle or was shot at by one.
Only Spaghettimonster knows how many casualties their
grenades caused on the eastern front.
Just like today. The was was not so much about the actions of the soldiers,
but the competency or lack thereof with the strategic decisionmakers. IMHO.
WW2 was about so much more than the infantry soldier.
My Grandpa was commanding 2 heavy mortars during the war.
He never even fired a rifle or was shot at by one.
Only Spaghettimonster knows how many casualties their
grenades caused on the eastern front.
Just like today. The was was not so much about the actions of the soldiers,
but the competency or lack thereof with the strategic decisionmakers. IMHO.
ColoradoMinuteMan
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There were many contributing factors to winning the war. The ability to provide a nearly endless supply of manufactured weapons, supplies and soldiers while destroying the enemy's ability to do the same was probably one of the biggest contributors.
lysanderxiii
Member
Not quite.
The British Army had a long standing tradition of 'volley fire by platoon'. It was one of the reasons for the continued insistence on the magazine cut-off. The idea is that each platoon maintains a constant rate of fire, about two or three rounds per minute, but each platoon's firing would be out of phase with the others. Individual target were not aimed at just the general area of the enemy (usually a massed bunch of angry IP). This was very effective, and kept ammunition expenditure reasonable. [People tend to forget just how important it is to prevent over-expenditure of ammunition is, especially in an era when resupply comes at the pace of an ox cart, over unimproved roads, if there are even roads.]
The reason for the poor initial performance of the British in South Africa was a lack of understanding just how much tactics had to change due to the long range effectiveness of the small caliber smokeless cartridge, and just exactly what tactics to use when assaulting prepared defensive positions across open terrain.
And even when the commanders realize that new tactics are required (which happened relatively quickly), troop that have never trained in these new tactics cannot be expected to employ them over-night.
kBob
Member
lysanderxiii
Yes quite.
Yes, I refer to the work on improving the accuracy of the individual marks man under the Hythe system from the 1850s forward where the desire was to produce good target shooters that could be used in combat. This system was developed under LTC Charles Hay who would later become Major General Hay, an LT as Assistant, and iColor Sgt John M'Kay who was orphan raised in a school for military orphans and started his carrier as a drummer boy. He was later raised from the ranks mainly for his work at Hythe and ended up a Major General known for his detailed study of all things musketry and other wise. He was the Model of the poor orphan boy that became a modern major General.
Can you sing the song?
Later in Musketry Regulations of 1909 Major N. McMahon introduced the idea of individual rapid fire and rather than precission accuracy a hit anywhere being counted as a hit. In a series of test beginning about 1905 this technique of rapid general fire rather than precission fire was found to be effective. In 1914 German troops running up agains units of British troops so trained (Including a battalion commanded by McMahon himself) reported they had been sent to attack massed machine guns as the fire from the 10 shot and stripper loaded Lee Enfields was so rapid.
But hey, what do I know?
-kBob
Yes quite.
Yes, I refer to the work on improving the accuracy of the individual marks man under the Hythe system from the 1850s forward where the desire was to produce good target shooters that could be used in combat. This system was developed under LTC Charles Hay who would later become Major General Hay, an LT as Assistant, and iColor Sgt John M'Kay who was orphan raised in a school for military orphans and started his carrier as a drummer boy. He was later raised from the ranks mainly for his work at Hythe and ended up a Major General known for his detailed study of all things musketry and other wise. He was the Model of the poor orphan boy that became a modern major General.
Can you sing the song?
Later in Musketry Regulations of 1909 Major N. McMahon introduced the idea of individual rapid fire and rather than precission accuracy a hit anywhere being counted as a hit. In a series of test beginning about 1905 this technique of rapid general fire rather than precission fire was found to be effective. In 1914 German troops running up agains units of British troops so trained (Including a battalion commanded by McMahon himself) reported they had been sent to attack massed machine guns as the fire from the 10 shot and stripper loaded Lee Enfields was so rapid.
But hey, what do I know?
-kBob
lysanderxiii
Member
The MG42 had a cyclic rate of fire is around 1200 rpm . . .
Standard practice was to swap barrel every ammo box, depending on how fast you were going through them. While the barrel change is quick and easy, it does interrupt your overall rate of fire. And you can't just dump the hot barrel in the dirt, you are go to need it again in a few minutes.
In reality, the total rate of fire a squad, German, American, or a British section, as in the total number of rounds they could shoot at you over a set amount of time, was not that different.
And, the BAR set on slow-rate, is extremely effective at laying down suppressive fire. In slow rate, the rifle recoils and settles before the next round fires, it also gives the gunner, if he is properly trained, just enough time to re-acquire the target in the sights.
No.
The US Army has never adopted the WW2 German infantry tactical doctrine. The German doctrine was the primary offensive and defensive firepower of the squad comes from the machine gun, and the riflemen are there to support the machine gun. US Army (and British) doctrine has always been the primary offensive firepower of the squad comes from the rifleman, and the machine gun is used to support the riflemen, in the defense, the roles are reversed.
In WW2 the USMC doctrine was similar to the German doctrine, but was based on a smaller element, the four man fire team as opposed to the ten man squad, and was centered on the BAR as the primary source of firepower. It should also be noted that the USMC issued the BAR three to a squad as opposed the German US and British Armies' issue of one MG34/42, BAR or BREN per squad/section.
lysanderxiii
Member
As I said, "not quite".
Most of what you have written is all very true, but the Musketry Regulations do emphasize precision shooting, as well as rapidity.
From: http://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/43102565094/the-mad-minute-marksmanship-training-in-the
Marksmanship training in the British Army involved an exercise known as the ‘Mad Minute’ in which a soldier was expected to fire at, and hit, a Second Class figure target 300 yards out at least 15 times. A trained rifleman could hit the target 30+ times with his Short Magazine Lee-Enfield Rifle. At the turn of the century the British Army was the most professional in the world with each soldier trained to be an expert marksman. The Mad Minute itself is arguably a myth surrounded by myth, its proper name was Serial 22, Table B of the Musketry Regulations classification course of fire. Which instructed a soldier to fire rapidly into a distant target with 15 rounds being a target. However, this was not a requirement as the rifleman’s scores were calculated by aggregate with the other stages of the classification. The exercise of firing as many rounds as possible was probably a challenge set for fun to encourage pride in marksmanship and to see just how many rounds it was possible to fire in a minute. During the musketry classifications shoots of recruits and again shot each year by all infantrymen, engineers and cavalrymen to gauge how good of a shot they were.
The classification shoot was shot in several stages shot out to 600 yards, the various stages or serials were laid out in Table B, Appendix II in the Musketry Regulations Pt.1, these included grouping with 5 rounds at 100 yards, snap shooting with 5 rounds out at 200 yards, two 5 round stages fired slowly with the first at 400 yards from the prone position and another at 300 yards from kneeling. Then came the so called ‘Mad Minute’ stage fired from prone at a target 300 yards out. This was to be fired with 5 rounds loaded - 1 in the chamber and 4 in the magazine, the rifleman would then reload with 5-round chargers firing until 60 seconds had elapsed. The target used for this stage was the Second Class figure target which was a 4 foot screen with a 12 inch high figure silhouette at the center surrounded by two rings, a 23 inch inner ring and a 36 inch outer ring. This stage was then followed by three final stages fired from prone out to 500 and 600 yards.
The Second Class figure target as shown in the 1910 Musketry Regulations. [Note that the black "bullseye" is a 12 x 12 shape, actually smaller than the D (modified) target used by the USMC at 300 yards.]
If the classification was completed with a high enough score the soldier would be classified as a Marksman and given a crossed rifles badge and a 6 pence a day increase in pay - so it paid to be a good shot. The rapid fire of the ‘Mad Minute’ was accomplished by used a ‘palming’ method where the rifleman used the palm of his hand to work the bolt, and not his thumb and fore finger. Each man to shoot the classification course was allotted points for where each round hit - 4 points for a ‘bull’ figure hit, 3 for a hit in the inner ring and 2 points for an outer ring hit. Troops could be classified as follows: Marksman (with at least 130 points out of 200 across the classification), 1st Class (105-130 points), 2nd Class and 3rd Class (sub-standard). The majority of British troops, even cavalry, were excellent marksman with 50% of troops in some battalions scored as Marksman with the rest being 1st and 2nd class shots.
British Army rifle qualification involved firing 50 rounds total, with 4 points given for each "bullseye" 3 points for the first ring, and 2 points for the outer ring. Theoretically, you could skip the 'mad minute' and get your Marksmanship badge and 6 pennies a day.
To me that says the British Army was very interested in precision shooting.
Oh, and the target design and course of fire described by the Musketry Regulations is very similar the "A" Course used by the Army through the 1950's and the current USMC qualification course, probably one of the most marksmanship centered rifle training programs.
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lysanderxiii
Member
Addendum:
From what I read in the regulations, the 'mad minute' was a "GO-NOGO" exercise, in that you had to get at least 15 hits during one minute of firing at 300 yards.
You aren't going to get 15 hits in a 36 inch outer circle at 300 yards by just blasting away. It is going to take some reasonable good aiming.
From what I read in the regulations, the 'mad minute' was a "GO-NOGO" exercise, in that you had to get at least 15 hits during one minute of firing at 300 yards.
You aren't going to get 15 hits in a 36 inch outer circle at 300 yards by just blasting away. It is going to take some reasonable good aiming.
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