Iraq doomed

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Lucky

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It looks like it's going to suck to be an Iraqi. Their own gov't has been demanding US maintain their presence, but it looks like Democrats winning an election is more important than stopping ethnic cleansing in Iraq.

****ing disgusting. Plato was NOT wrong about unchecked democracy.

Too bad they're received a eutotrash constitution with no right to keep arms, and extensive gov't powers to take them away. Maybe the people won't recognize the constitution's legitimacy when the official death squads start going door to door.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/03/23/iraq-house.html

Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives voted Friday to bring U.S. troops home from Iraq no later than September 2008.

The vote, 218 to 212, split mainly along party lines, with all Republicans except two voting against the measure. The 14 Democrats who voted against the bill included members on the left, who rejected the proposal because it was deemed too weak, the CBC's Henry Champ said.

Following the vote, President George W. Bush said in a webcast that he would use his veto to block it. The bill has "no chance of becoming law," he said.

The bill is mainly a spending measure to pay for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The U.S. Senate also needs to pass similar legislation, probably next week, but supporters have enough votes to get it through, Champ said.

The House bill was debated late into Thursday evening.
Continue Article

"For the first time, we can mandate real and meaningful deadlines that clearly reflect the disgust so many of us have," Democratic Congressman James McGovern said.

"The stakes in Iraq are too high and the sacrifices made by our military personnel and their families too great to be content with anything but success," said Republican Roy Blunt.

Iraq must meet Bush's benchmarks

The bill requires the Iraqi government to meet standards set by Bush in January, when he relaunched the U.S. strategy in the country by committing more soldiers and money.

Bush said the Iraqi government had to stop the fighting between Sunni and Shia factions, disarm the militias and settle on a means of sharing the country's oil revenues among the regions.

The bill sets two deadlines this year for Bush to certify that Iraq is meeting his benchmarks, but whatever happens, it says U.S. troops are to start to pull out no later than March 2008, and end combat operations by September.

Bush criticized the Democrats for engaging in "an act of political theatre," and said they abdicated their responsibilities to support the troops. He said the bill has too many conditions, restricts the military's ability to manage the war, and sets an arbitrary timetable for withdrawal.

The bill has been attacked by both liberals and conservatives, and has split both parties. Liberals want a faster end to the war, while conservatives want to give Bush's new strategy a chance to succeed.
With files from the Associated Press
 
Liberals want a faster end to the war,
How does our running away = "an end to the war?" That will be just the beginning; civil war, 100's of thousands of Iraqi civilians slaughtered (ironically, the libs will finally get the casualty #s they are currently making up). The winners will be the fundamentalists. No one (including France, Germany...especially the Iraqi people) will ever trust us to keep our word or have the guts to stick it out when the going gets tough.

If talk didn't work before in dealing with the worlds despots, how will more talk after failed (we gave up on it) action be successful in the future? Ignore the UN, they are all talk. Ignore the US, even if they take action in the future, the media and the left will start to sabatage it from the beginning and they will quit...like 'Nam, Somalia and now Iraq?

Letting our friends we promised to help hang out to dry is great. I love being part of this.:cuss: :fire:
 
Longeyes It's the US MILITARY that guarantees 1 rifle per home.

The IRAQI CONSTITUTION does not, in fact it specifies the you requires gov't permission to even own firearms.

Take a wild wild guess how their gov't will start trying to curb the violence. - Disarm the law abiding, and ignore the interventionist countries surrounding them that are fighting a proxy war.



Denfoote we can hope and pray. Like Strambo said, the US prestige and foreign perception is indefinitely fubared if they get three strikes. That might not sound like a big deal, but it means the balance of power in the world will be shifted, and that's instability, which always leads to bloodshed somewhere.

As well, Strambo is right that abandoning people is always wrong, on every level. And when it's people you've promised to help and protect, its even worse.


Strambo I disagree on one point though - US failure gives the UN more legitimacy, relatively. That's very bad.
 
Strambo I disagree on one point though - US failure gives the UN more legitimacy, relatively. That's very bad.
No, we're in agreement. Our chosen failure will make the UN the only show in town. It is bad, because the UN is a paper tiger without the US. If the UN has a spear...we provide the body to throw it as well as the tip. Without us all they have is a pen.

If our Coalition cannot succeed (I'm not saying this I know we can, the defeatists are) how can just the Iraqis succeed? How could the UN go in and "fix" everything after it falls apart? Yes, the world would look to a more legitimate UN and the regimes like Iran, NK and whatever became of Iraq would blow them off harder core than Saddam ever did...and he did it for 12 years.
 
All you naysayers were spouting off the same nonsense when we pulled out of Vietnam.

I'm pretty sure America didn't fall to the Communists then, and we certainly aren't going to fall to a bunch of Islamic militants now. :rolleyes:
 
The UN put it's tail between it's legs and hauled but years ago at the first sign of adversity.

I am not a strategist but I think Fred Thompson has it right 'We are left with nothing but bad choices'.

- If we continue spending money as if it were going out of style than the US is finished as a nation. And we are likely to drag the world economy into a world wide depression as well. One would think that since we have already spent more than 100 times the entire GDP of pre war Iraq that would be enough, but there is no end in sight.

- If we pull out too soon we risk huge destabilization of the region, a second Iran/ Iraq war with Syria and Jordan in the mix. This will threaten world energy supplies.

- If no war occurs than we have the possibility of a post war Taliban style government springing up except instead of poverty stricken Afganistan they have the oil wealth of Iraq. Certainly the civil war won't end any time soon though. A Balkan type situtation will continue in the region for maybe two, three generations? Maybe forever?

- There is no best case scenario. This would require action on the part of the vast majority (90%) of the Iraqi people to end the conflict. Since there is no consensus opinion this will not happen.

When you make your post war plan more than a year after the war is over you have missed your best opportunity by a country mile. You can't go back and undo that.

We waited for more than a year for a leader to spring up from a nation of sheep after killing off all of the wolves and dismissing all the shepards. Mistakes were made. All we can do is deal with the mistakes and move on.

But there has to be a plan....
 
GTSteve.. if you read what the posters above you are saying, they're not saying we'll be fending off an invasion here - they're saying a forced pullout on an arbritrary date will result in ethnic clensing in Iraq on a scale to make the Darfur whiners squeal.

Further, if you remember some post-VietNam history of southeast Asia, you'll find those comments are not exactly without precendent. The "domino theory" might not have extended worldwide, but it sure got as far as next door, and I seem to recall this other nearby Communist nation that had a few problems along those lines after we went home with our tail between our legs. To say noting of the VietNamese who supported us once we left.

Lucky - as much as I hate to admit it, you may be right about Plato.

Titan6 - best summary of the situation I've seen in ages. Nicely done.
The only thing I'd take issue with is the "world wide depression thing. Iraq's GDP (which was already depressed pre-war because of UN sanctions) isn't relevent at the moment, as we're the ones paying for it. As a portion of our GDP it's still expensive, but a much more manageable sum. It ain't the Iraq war that'll bankrupt the west - it's the "retirement insurance" plans we've promised all our citizens that'll do that.

I'd say if we packed up and went home early, we'd definately see Iran move in (I mean, more than they have already) to back the Shia'a, and quite possibly Iran and/or Turkey taking advantage of the chaos to kill off the Kurds. Saudi might well have to move in to counter the Shia'a element, or take binLadin up on his pre-Gulf War I offer to be their proxy military, and start funding Al-Q or related groups to counter Iran.

Yeah, it'd suck to be an Iraqi.

But at least Bush seems to have actually found his veto pen. It must have been lost in a drawer somewhere. :)


-K
 
All you naysayers were spouting off the same nonsense when we pulled out of Vietnam.

I'm pretty sure America didn't fall to the Communists then, and we certainly aren't going to fall to a bunch of Islamic militants now.

I'm always amazed when I hear something like this. For the most part I attribute it to a lack of knowledge about the differences between those two situations.

Ask yourself this. What was in the strategic interest of the United States that caused us to think we could be affected by the fall of Vietnam to Communism? It's not like we had a whole lot of interest in their rice production. What were we afraid of losing?

The short answer is the reduced access to the mediterranean and greater access to the mediterranean by our enemies. Did that happen? Absolutely. Within months of the fall of Saigon the Soviet Union began taking over the seaports in Vietnam. We didn't feel the impact simply because we never got into a direct military conflict with the Soviet Union. Had a conflict occurred we would have been severely limited by the Soviet Navy from being able to enter the Indian Ocean. So, in essence, we did lose what we thought we would lose...which was our ability to respond effectively to certain areas of the world in force.

Now ask yourself this. What is in the strategic interest of the United States that causes us to think we could be affected by the fall of the government in Iraq? For this answer you need to know the geography and the cultural/historical elements involved in this dispute.

The Shia are located predominantly in the east, southeast of Iraq and share a common belief system with Iran. The vast majority of insurgents and weaponry is coming into Iraq along this elongated border. Not only does this area have MOST of the oil in the area, they also have the only seaport. Whether it becomes a training ground for terrorists is almost inconsequential compared to the problem of Iran taking hold of that area and using the oil as a leverage point for getting what they want. That leverage will only have a marginal effect initially on the US, but it will most certainly be effective against Russia and several other countries who can give us grief in the UN as voting members of the Security Council.

Clearly Iran has the most potent military in the area and by taking over that particular piece of property they have tremendous political and economic leverage over their neighbors including Saudi Arabia.

The only thing that keeps this from happening is the fact that the Shi'a in Iraq are Arab and the Shi'a in Iran are Persian. The Shi'a in Iraq are also the single largest population in Iraq and therefore, if they can stay in power and learn to work effectively with the Sunni and the Kurds in Iraq they can all control their own destiny. But they do not have the military power at this point to withstand a confrontation with Iran.

So let's take the lessons learned from Vietnam and apply them.

We leave prematurely. Iran invades Iraq. How do we go back there to correct that situation? Do you think the Saudi's would allow us to stage from Saudi Arabia knowing full well that puts them at odds with Iran? And why would they do that knowing that our military is subject to being pulled out based on political pressures?

Moreover, look at the Sunni population which is located in the one region of Iraq that has no oil. They share both cultural and religious ties with Syria and Lebanon. I'm sure they will turn out to be great friends to the US once we leave and they lose all access to oil revenue and have no alternative but to integrate with Syria and Lebanon in order to survive.

The Kurds in the north have oil, but they will clearly align with Turkey (who are clearly not friends to the US) as that is where they have cultural and religious ties.

That pretty much wraps up the picture. We leave prior to Iraq being able to sustain itself we will end up with the whole of the middle east as enemies with the exception of (maybe) Saudi Arabia and Kuwait (like either of them are any help).

The answer here is not a simple situation of Communism taking over the world. Yes, we can walk away and let that all happen and hope it doesn't bite us. Or we can try to establish Iraq as a country that can stand up to these pressures and keep the middle east from boiling over and placing non-US friendly nations in charge of 80% of the oil production in the middle east.
 
Iraq was doomed way before the democratic party got its power back. The Iraqi people were doomed/screwed/bent over a barrel when BUSH and his cronies decided to invade.

Think, no big cleansing parties in iraq till Bush took over. When Saddam was in control, just about everybody had the "ak in a house" and lots of ammo. Sure he was hard, but Saddam was even handed. Everyone now causing the chaos in Iraq wouldnt have survived 2 days with Saddam in power.
 
i agree with the poster above, saddam although a wortless POS had control over the country well most of it lol (i dont agree with his tatics though) now they beheaded the snake and with the US pulling out before the job is done that country is going to be in some seriously bad shape in a couple years with out a real centralized goverment that can assert some law and order over the people.(not saying we are doing any better while over there but its still in the rebuilding stages)

do they really think you can rebuild a country the size of iraq's infastructure back in 4 years after totatlly destroying it?
 
Think, no big cleansing parties in iraq till Bush took over.

Kaylee is very right, this statement is so uninformed that it is hard to believe anyone could think that. Ask the Kurds if there were any cleansing parties.


But, on the other hand, why do we care if there is a civil war in Iraq?

I think the best thing we could do is hope for civil war there. We could pull our military out of Baghdad and other hot-spots and station them in the southern Iraqi oil fields or even Kuwait.

Then let the Iraqis do whatever they want to do. Its up to them. We freed them from Saddam, and their destiny should be their own. If that means civil war and ethnic cleansing, then so be it. If it means they pull together and form a new society, thats fine also. If their new government chooses to adopt an anti-American policy, we would still have troops in the vicinity to deal with it.

Either way, we keep a presence in the area and keep the oil flowing this way.
 
You know...I guess I am starting to change my mind about Iraq.

Clearly the terrorists are right. Americans are a bunch of spoiled weaklings who don't have the guts to take on the tough jobs. We're okay as long as the job doesn't get too demanding. If it does we just quit and go home. Just like when our marriages get too tough, we just quit them. We don't have the conviction of our morals to keep us going through the tough times. We've just become a nation of quitters.

Let's just admit to ourselves what we've become as a nation, and that the terrorists are right. We may act like a big dog capable of defending ourselves, but we're just a bunch of bullies that run away when we really get hit and times get tough.

It makes me SOOOOOOOOO proud......
:rolleyes:
 
I'm always amazed when I hear something like this. For the most part I attribute it to a lack of knowledge about the differences between those two situations.

Unfortunately for you, you revealed your lack of knowledge by the following quote. You pretend to understand Shia and Sunni differences, yet don't know the differences between Saudi Arabia and Iran??? :rolleyes:

Do you think the Saudi's would allow us to stage from Saudi Arabia knowing full well that puts them at odds with Iran?
 
Hey, DiD, how ya been? Haven't heard from you since the last time we
went around and around on this topic? You still a private contractor in
Baghdad? I was just a soldier in OIF back when things were still good there,
I guess.....

...Americans are a bunch of spoiled weaklings who don't have the guts to take on the tough jobs. We're okay as long as the job doesn't get too demanding. If it does we just quit and go home.

Explain to me how this "job" fits in with America and her Constitution.
Explain to me how this "job" in Iraq had anything to do with our self-defense.

Just like when our marriages get too tough, we just quit them. We don't have the conviction of our morals to keep us going through the tough times.

I've been with my wife more than 15 years now and have never cheated
on her.

I wish I could say the same about my leaders with this nation.

We may act like a big dog capable of defending ourselves, but we're just a bunch of bullies that run away when we really get hit and times get tough.

Trust me. There are plenty of us left in America who will defend ourselves
and this nation from her enemies both foreign and domestic.

It makes me SOOOOOOOOO proud......

Your sarcasm aside, yes you should be. The salt of the earth still continues
to preserve what's still left here despite the rot and filth poured forth by the
pampered perfumed princes in power.
 
DunedinDragon,

So you support "staying the course" as Bush likes to say, despite the fact that he has absolutely no idea what that course is?

Staying in a quagmire without any reasonable strategy to actually win makes no sense. I would be willing to stay in Iraq if it looked like our leaders actually had a plan that had a chance of working.

Keeping soldiers in harm's way with no plan for success is lunacy. We either need to bring them home, or unleash hell in Iraq until no one want to fight us. I think it is a total inglorious waste for soldiers to be killed by a road side bomb while running errands to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure.
 
Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives voted Friday to bring U.S. troops home from Iraq no later than September 2008.

So Iraq will go in the History Book as other defeat just like Vietnam!

:banghead: :fire: :cuss: :banghead: :cuss: :fire:
 
DunedinDragon said:
Ask yourself this. What was in the strategic interest of the United States that caused us to think we could be affected by the fall of Vietnam to Communism? It's not like we had a whole lot of interest in their rice production. What were we afraid of losing?

The short answer is the reduced access to the mediterranean and greater access to the mediterranean by our enemies. Did that happen? Absolutely. Within months of the fall of Saigon the Soviet Union began taking over the seaports in Vietnam.

Do you have any idea where Vietnam is?
 
Do you have any idea where Vietnam is?

I'm impressed he can spell "mediterranean" yet not know where Vietnam is. Did he copy and paste the entire argument from some website?

Countries in the middle east don't get to terminate oil production just to piss of the USA. The main component of their GDP is oil exports. Their countries goes into chaos if they stop selling oil. Also they don't get to choose who buys the oil. It's a global market.

Iraq and Iran make up less than 15% of oil production in the world. Sure oil prices may rise if no oil is exported from those countries, but it ain't going to break the USA. There are better reasons to give for not withdrawing. This is not one of them.
 
So you support "staying the course" as Bush likes to say, despite the fact that he has absolutely no idea what that course is?

You can not like the plan.
You can think the plan is full of crap.

But you cannot truthfully say there is no plan, because it's been public (and revised, as events dictated - the ISG for instance) for years. Here ya go, straight from the horse's mouth.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/iraq_national_strategy_20051130.pdf

-K


PS - re the Mediterranean thing - I assumed he mean that a heavy Communist presence in the Indian Ocean could be used to deny access to the Mediterranean (and hence the Atlantic) via the Red Sea, but I think the Man from the West will have to answer that one on his own. :)


Finally, foob - what part of this are you saying shows DD "[doesn't] know the differences between Saudi Arabia and Iran"?
Do you think the Saudi's would allow us to stage from Saudi Arabia knowing full well that puts them at odds with Iran?
 
Finally, foob - what part of this are you saying shows DD "[doesn't] know the differences between Saudi Arabia and Iran"?

Saudi Arabia allowed the US to stage from them when Iraq invaded Kuwait, and Iraq was sunni controlled.

I have no clue why he thinks Sunni Saudi Arabia won't allow US to stage from them again, especially since there are permanent bases there, if Shia Iran invades Iraq.

PS - re the Mediterranean thing - I assumed he mean that a heavy Communist presence in the Indian Ocean could be used to deny access to the Mediterranean (and hence the Atlantic) via the Red Sea, but I think the Man from the West will have to answer that one on his own.

Er... Vietnam does not border or is even close to the Indian ocean. Indian ocean is also relatively large, ships leaving the suez canal can avoid all the ports/land and head straight for South East Asia (around Singapore) to get to East Asia.

Vietnam is bordered by the South China Sea. Soviet Union has a blue water navy, if they want to deny movement in that region, they don't need ports in Vietnam...
 
I get the impression that the Democrat leadership wants to bring the troops home so that the war will end up here. What better excuse could they come up with to disarm us than "for fear that privately owned arms will end up in the hands of the enemy"? They already say you shouldn't have a gun or try to use it to defend yourself because it'll end up in the hands of the criminals, and they'll use it on you, don't they?

Woody

If we don't bring back the warmth and light of the Constitution now, it will soon pass beyond the bloodless reach of man's will. B.E.Wood
 
The answer here is not a simple situation of Communism taking over the world. Yes, we can walk away and let that all happen and hope it doesn't bite us. Or we can try to establish Iraq as a country that can stand up to these pressures and keep the middle east from boiling over and placing non-US friendly nations in charge of 80% of the oil production in the middle east.

I agree with DunedinDragon.

Most Americans don't have the slightest idea of what the full consequences would be if we pull out of Iraq as we did in Viet Nam. Our fighting men and women did not lose Viet Nam - the home front did.

The left-wing Democrats are determined to lose in Iraq for much the same reason they were determined to lose in Viet Nam. However if they are successful this time they may get some unintended consequences. This country, and its whole economy are dependent on foreign oil. For this we can blame ourselves because corrective measures should have been taken starting in the 1970's after the first oil crisis when the Middle East oil valve got turned off.

Any pullout from Iraq before the country is stabilized will cause a power vacuum that somebody will fill, and the one thing that’s certain is that whoever the somebody is, they won’t be a friend of ours.

The Democrats’ plan is to get out just before the 2008 elections, on the assumption that this will be a popular move that will sweep them into the White House. Maybe, but by 2012 they may wish they’d never thought of the idea.
 
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