Iron sights, a dying skill?
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The M4 is designed for certain roles, and can be stretched into others. Ditto for the M16.
The Marines kept the M16 because of their "rifleman" doctrine. The M4 (more or less) is the choice of urban law enforcement as well as the Army for urban use.
By and large, the M16 is intended as a rifle, and the M4 as a carbine. What sorts of service they're each pressed into, in a real war instead of a training exercise, is a different story.
Consider clearing a building, turning corners, moving the gun around to clear obstacles, etc. the M4 with a red dot sure seems like an ideal weapon.
Consider firing 300+ yards from a makeshift fortification, at an enemy trying to take cover. The M16 with an ACOG seems like what I'd want.
The Marines kept the M16 because of their "rifleman" doctrine. The M4 (more or less) is the choice of urban law enforcement as well as the Army for urban use.
By and large, the M16 is intended as a rifle, and the M4 as a carbine. What sorts of service they're each pressed into, in a real war instead of a training exercise, is a different story.
Consider clearing a building, turning corners, moving the gun around to clear obstacles, etc. the M4 with a red dot sure seems like an ideal weapon.
Consider firing 300+ yards from a makeshift fortification, at an enemy trying to take cover. The M16 with an ACOG seems like what I'd want.
Solidus-snake
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I think Iron sights are dying off, however I believe they are dying off prematurely. No matter if your sights a $2000 whizzbang, makes coffee on the side, super elite sight or a cheapo "imported and built at lowest cost from foreign eastern country" sight, it CAN fail at some point and according to Murphy, it can be at the worst possible moment.
So why risk it and have nothing to fall back on? Any survivalist, strategist, or even smart person knows that one always should have a backup plan, in our case being BUIS. Yeah sure, its not hard to learn someone how to use them, but when your main sight fails, will you be able to hit the pause button and call your local instructor to come teach you so you can properly engage your target?
Anyone who thinks they might have to use their weapon in a defensive situation, would be a fool to not have or learn how to use iron sights.
So why risk it and have nothing to fall back on? Any survivalist, strategist, or even smart person knows that one always should have a backup plan, in our case being BUIS. Yeah sure, its not hard to learn someone how to use them, but when your main sight fails, will you be able to hit the pause button and call your local instructor to come teach you so you can properly engage your target?
Anyone who thinks they might have to use their weapon in a defensive situation, would be a fool to not have or learn how to use iron sights.
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for the record, iron sights can become unusable too.
a) there's a reason they put wings on either side of most front posts
b) ever get mud/rain in your rear peep? i have
c) BUIS are frequently attached to rails by screws w/o loctite, etc. they can come loose
a) there's a reason they put wings on either side of most front posts
b) ever get mud/rain in your rear peep? i have
c) BUIS are frequently attached to rails by screws w/o loctite, etc. they can come loose
It's hard to find a nice high power rifle with iron sights. And, optics are better and cheaper than they have ever been before. So, IMHO, iron sights mastery is a dying skillset.
When I was in the second grade, my dad gave my brother and I BB guns with iron sights We lived on a farm and were told to shoot all the sparrows and starlings possible. Then, when I was 12, I got a Winchester 94 with buckhorn iron sights; and, hunted with iron sights till after I got married and bought a little 4X to put on my Remington Speedmaster.
So, when I went into the service, our M14's and 16s were outfitted with iron sights and I did just fine wih them, thanks to all the practice I had growing up.
When I was in the second grade, my dad gave my brother and I BB guns with iron sights We lived on a farm and were told to shoot all the sparrows and starlings possible. Then, when I was 12, I got a Winchester 94 with buckhorn iron sights; and, hunted with iron sights till after I got married and bought a little 4X to put on my Remington Speedmaster.
So, when I went into the service, our M14's and 16s were outfitted with iron sights and I did just fine wih them, thanks to all the practice I had growing up.
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Well, if I pay $300 for some Troy BUIS, I will definitely use them. I hate paying money for something and not using it.
It really just depends on the mood I am in. I like using my scoped bolt actions, but I find that busting out the lever actions w/ irons to be much more enjoyable.
It really just depends on the mood I am in. I like using my scoped bolt actions, but I find that busting out the lever actions w/ irons to be much more enjoyable.
Vern Humphrey
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That would be a violation of the laws of physics.
DMK
Member
This doesn't matter all that much with a red dot. You use them with both eyes open. If you can see the target with your left eye and the dot with your right, you are good to go. You could have the front lens cap on your red dot and it will still work fine.
IMO, this is one of the biggest advantages of a good quality red dot. It's not such a big deal on an AR15 where getting a good and repeatable cheek weld is easy. However, on something like an AK with a folding stock, it makes a huge difference. The other advantage is that the dot and target are on the same focal plane. Just look at the target and the dot is there. No concentration wasted on lining things up. No need to switch focus from target to sight.
Back to the OPs comments though. Shooting with an electronic optic is very different from shooting with irons sights. One needs to be practiced with the techniques of both. It is a shame that the military is brushing off the skills and training with irons sights. This is doing the soldiers a great disservice IMO and may get someone killed.
Tim the student
Member
They are dying out, but still a good skill to have. Technology is moving along - thats all it is.
LRS Ranger, are you in Division, or are one of those other guys on main post?
LRS Ranger, are you in Division, or are one of those other guys on main post?
Scopes don't "gather" light. They always transmit less to the ocular than passes into them. I've been shooting long enought to know this one predates the internet, and it's gunstore bs.
Red dots are nice on carbines and close range work, but what someone has failed to notice, they often have 2MOA dots, or larger. That makes them somewhat harder to shoot accurately at long range. The makers don't advertise either carbines or red dots for that anyway. What is used in the military is a rifle with magnified optic.
Iron sights are dying out in public sales because marketers are taking advantage of scopes and red dots as the answer to poor shooting skills. Yes, red dots do work well when the shooter can't consistently get the same cheek weld and hold a sight picture with the post centered in the notch. Yes, if you can see the dot, put it on target, and pull the trigger, the round will hit. Yes, they are much faster in acquiring a target.
NO, they don't do it for cheap, and those who do buy cheap don't get durability - which is inherent in iron sight design. They are made of steel, have protective wings, use robust mounts, and put up with a lot of abuse when made to military grade.
This points out the use of the proper pins to hold the front sight on AR's. Milspec is tapered pins. Those provide an very abuse resistant mounting that prevents the sight - and it's critical part, the gas tube - from moving. Banged on vehicles and doorways, dropped on concrete from shoulder level, torqued and twisted in bayonet training, tapered roll pins put up with the abuse and keep the weapon functioning.
Loctite and set screws need NOT apply. I agree that if it takes loctite on screws to hold any sight on a weapon, it's not designed correctly. That's a tradeoff of the picitinny rail system, and there are levers offered to prevent loosening. Done right, those wouldn't be there.
In this regard, optics are creating a less secure rail mounting system instead of a more rugged setup for iron sights. It's not uncommon for carbine course instructor's to have to recommend a student to strip all the unnecessary stuff off so that it will not litter the range.
Hard advice to follow if you are there to show off what your credit card can carry.
Red dots are nice on carbines and close range work, but what someone has failed to notice, they often have 2MOA dots, or larger. That makes them somewhat harder to shoot accurately at long range. The makers don't advertise either carbines or red dots for that anyway. What is used in the military is a rifle with magnified optic.
Iron sights are dying out in public sales because marketers are taking advantage of scopes and red dots as the answer to poor shooting skills. Yes, red dots do work well when the shooter can't consistently get the same cheek weld and hold a sight picture with the post centered in the notch. Yes, if you can see the dot, put it on target, and pull the trigger, the round will hit. Yes, they are much faster in acquiring a target.
NO, they don't do it for cheap, and those who do buy cheap don't get durability - which is inherent in iron sight design. They are made of steel, have protective wings, use robust mounts, and put up with a lot of abuse when made to military grade.
This points out the use of the proper pins to hold the front sight on AR's. Milspec is tapered pins. Those provide an very abuse resistant mounting that prevents the sight - and it's critical part, the gas tube - from moving. Banged on vehicles and doorways, dropped on concrete from shoulder level, torqued and twisted in bayonet training, tapered roll pins put up with the abuse and keep the weapon functioning.
Loctite and set screws need NOT apply. I agree that if it takes loctite on screws to hold any sight on a weapon, it's not designed correctly. That's a tradeoff of the picitinny rail system, and there are levers offered to prevent loosening. Done right, those wouldn't be there.
In this regard, optics are creating a less secure rail mounting system instead of a more rugged setup for iron sights. It's not uncommon for carbine course instructor's to have to recommend a student to strip all the unnecessary stuff off so that it will not litter the range.
Hard advice to follow if you are there to show off what your credit card can carry.
mokin
Member
I think iron sights and the skill to use them is dying out. Last time I was shopping for rifles very few of the new ones had iron sights but were set up for a scope.
Reading through the responses on this thread made me think about the last couple times I helped out at range sponsered hunter sight-ins. It seemed to me that quite a few of the guys had little idea on how to operate thier scopes as well. Maybe these were just the guys who knew enough to come get help. Or maybe they just didn't want to deal with the math... Fractions! AUGH! It sort of made me wonder about basic marksmanship skills in general. I don't know....
I love iron sights but for shooting out beyond 200 yards I've just about got to have a scope. Especially for anything smaller than a coyote. I have used red dot sights and, when coupled with a ralatively flat shooting round see definite advantages with them. Although I wouldn't own a rifle without iron sights I can see a day when battle rifles no longer carry iron sights.
Reading through the responses on this thread made me think about the last couple times I helped out at range sponsered hunter sight-ins. It seemed to me that quite a few of the guys had little idea on how to operate thier scopes as well. Maybe these were just the guys who knew enough to come get help. Or maybe they just didn't want to deal with the math... Fractions! AUGH! It sort of made me wonder about basic marksmanship skills in general. I don't know....
I love iron sights but for shooting out beyond 200 yards I've just about got to have a scope. Especially for anything smaller than a coyote. I have used red dot sights and, when coupled with a ralatively flat shooting round see definite advantages with them. Although I wouldn't own a rifle without iron sights I can see a day when battle rifles no longer carry iron sights.
I earned my Distinguished with a M1a, so I am proud of my ability to shoot straight with irons.
However, just yesterday at the range, I handled a rifle with a microdot Red Dot sight. Even though it was dark, with light snow, I could clearly see the target and the small red dot.
If they make that Red Dot click adjustable, I don't see a need for irons.
However, just yesterday at the range, I handled a rifle with a microdot Red Dot sight. Even though it was dark, with light snow, I could clearly see the target and the small red dot.
If they make that Red Dot click adjustable, I don't see a need for irons.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Well, if my scopes go TU, then yes it will indeed be hard to shoot, since there are NO irons on the majority of my longguns.
Only guns I use irons with (not counting collectibe milsurp turnbolts):
-ALL handguns (except the Contender pistol)
-Wingshooting shotguns (just 2 now)
-LSI/Rossi Puma 92 .454 (Williams peep rear)
-NEF Handi .45-70 (Marbles peep rear)
-NEF Survivor .45 Colt / .410 (stock front bead only)
-Mossberg 930 SPX 12 ga (stock peep irons)
-CZ 452 Lux (stock irons) (and even then, I have a scope in see-throughs for long shots)
-Rem/Baikal SPR94 12 ga (and even then, I have a scope in see-throughs for the other / rifle barrel)
That's a total of 6 longguns with irons only, including shotguns, and 2 more with irons as a primary, for a total of 8.
That's it. Other levergun and even my turkey shotgun has an optical sight. Yes, I have BUISes on a couple others (AR, K31,), but they're not the primary sighting device.
Only guns I use irons with (not counting collectibe milsurp turnbolts):
-ALL handguns (except the Contender pistol)
-Wingshooting shotguns (just 2 now)
-LSI/Rossi Puma 92 .454 (Williams peep rear)
-NEF Handi .45-70 (Marbles peep rear)
-NEF Survivor .45 Colt / .410 (stock front bead only)
-Mossberg 930 SPX 12 ga (stock peep irons)
-CZ 452 Lux (stock irons) (and even then, I have a scope in see-throughs for long shots)
-Rem/Baikal SPR94 12 ga (and even then, I have a scope in see-throughs for the other / rifle barrel)
That's a total of 6 longguns with irons only, including shotguns, and 2 more with irons as a primary, for a total of 8.
That's it. Other levergun and even my turkey shotgun has an optical sight. Yes, I have BUISes on a couple others (AR, K31,), but they're not the primary sighting device.
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oldpuppymax
Member
Getting the fixed sights on target is part of the fun in black powder shooting. Elevation, windage, shoot, file, shoot...repeat, repeat, repeat.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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What if you're hitting too high instead of too low? Change file to "solder"?
Just my 2 Cents:
If you only use your gun for paper and gong punching at a rest, optics work very well...
but if you hunt where it often snows and you don't notice the snow/ice/water that has landed on the lens, you won't have time to get yer lens cleaner out when the monster buck pops out of the brush. I guess it's all in the application/situation.
If you only use your gun for paper and gong punching at a rest, optics work very well...
but if you hunt where it often snows and you don't notice the snow/ice/water that has landed on the lens, you won't have time to get yer lens cleaner out when the monster buck pops out of the brush. I guess it's all in the application/situation.
Yes, I have also, thats why I remove the tiny peep and do the ghost ring thing in inclement weather. If mud gathers in that, then it's time to examine the muzzle and other parts too before firing.
Assuming battery technology keeps up as well......
not sure what you guys mean by this. maybe we're talking about different things.
when i say 'scopes gather light' i mean a 44-50mm objective lens receives more light than your eyeball. while not all of that light makes it to the ocular lens, it's still more (in many cases) than your eyeball gets normally. when i look at a target with my naked eyeball, then move a large scope in front of it, the target usually appears brighter.
Zerodefect
member
My Aimpoint stays on all year so the battery issue is mute. i change the battery on new years. The ACOG uses no batteries, allthough I wish it did.
You know what I'd like to see again? Flip-over scope mounts. There are some pictures of them in Keith's Rifles for Large Game. They allowed a low scope mount with the option to use iron sights at will -- you just hit a release and flipped the scope over to the side of the receiver. With the right stock, you could have a good fit with both.
With a gun like the 452 Lux, it's a waste not to use the nice iron sights -- but it could also be called a waste not to use a scope with such an accurate smallbore rifle.
Joe Demko
Member
I have flip-over mounts on my Savage 99. You know what, though? I have never_ever_flipped the scope over to shoot in the field.
Oh, I doubt I would, either. The scopes of the time (1946) got fogged up, lost their reticle wires, and weren't adjustable for close-range work. All these problems have been solved.
I just think a quality flip-over mount would be a great thing on a recreational rifle like a 452 with irons.
coloradokevin
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I agree that iron sight use is certainly on the decline these days. I don't see many people at the range or in the woods with iron-sighted target/hunting guns, and red dots are now sitting on top of most of the AR-15s I see as well.
To be fair, I've added an Eotech sight to my work rifle, and I love the thing. It is faster on target, and easier to acquire in low light conditions. However, I also worry about letting my sighting skills decline through the use of this optic, so I always turn it off and shoot an extra qualification course each quarter (one course shot with the Eotech, one shot with the iron sights, viewed through the blank "window" of the Eotech).
To be fair, I've added an Eotech sight to my work rifle, and I love the thing. It is faster on target, and easier to acquire in low light conditions. However, I also worry about letting my sighting skills decline through the use of this optic, so I always turn it off and shoot an extra qualification course each quarter (one course shot with the Eotech, one shot with the iron sights, viewed through the blank "window" of the Eotech).
MythBuster
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What has become a lost art for shooters today is the ability to shoot without a bench and sandbags.
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