Not too big for deer but might be more gun that is needed. I usually hunt with a 30.06 but had to try out the 300 mag model 70 one year. I shot a doe at 75 feet and it actually knocked it down on the ground where it stood. The 30 30 will take any deer or black bear you encounter. That caliber has taken down alot of big game in brush country and has made a name for itself. I does not take gobs of power to kill deer.
Is a 300 win mag too big for deer?
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Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
"I think that if you can't stalk into shooting range with that .30-30 of that 12 point buck, you're a pretty sorry hunter. Maybe you should take up video games?"
Y'know, I have visions of this video-gamer down on the ground in the mesquite and cactus, crawling across some 200 yards or more while getting into range. Of course, that crawling takes a while. He raises up, looks around, and he's all alone in the middle of a thousand or so acres. Bambi got bored and left. All our intrepid nimrod has left is the need for a pair of pliers to take out the cactus, and a helluva lot of topical pain-reliever. And a laundromat.
(Sometimes the best way to deal with cactus is just shave the affected areas and wait until the tips fester out. Doesn't take over a couple of months, usually.)
I've watched a few would-bes in the stalking bidness, these last 60 or so years. My wrinkles come from grinning.
, Art
Y'know, I have visions of this video-gamer down on the ground in the mesquite and cactus, crawling across some 200 yards or more while getting into range. Of course, that crawling takes a while. He raises up, looks around, and he's all alone in the middle of a thousand or so acres. Bambi got bored and left. All our intrepid nimrod has left is the need for a pair of pliers to take out the cactus, and a helluva lot of topical pain-reliever. And a laundromat.
(Sometimes the best way to deal with cactus is just shave the affected areas and wait until the tips fester out. Doesn't take over a couple of months, usually.)
I've watched a few would-bes in the stalking bidness, these last 60 or so years. My wrinkles come from grinning.
, Art
GSPKurt
Member
Getting back on topic...
I have a .300 WinMag, and a .30-30. I'd take the .300WM, load 75 grains of IMR4350 and a Barnes 150 gr. Triple-Shock X bullet, and be ready for just about anything! Matter of fact, that is EXACTLY what I hunt with.
I have a .300 WinMag, and a .30-30. I'd take the .300WM, load 75 grains of IMR4350 and a Barnes 150 gr. Triple-Shock X bullet, and be ready for just about anything! Matter of fact, that is EXACTLY what I hunt with.
Ben Shepherd
Member
Boils down to this IME/IMO:
A 30-30 is PLENTY for deer, even 250-300 lb. mulies. The 300 mag is for hitting FARTHER out, NOT for hitting HARDER at the same distance. I watched my dad litterally bounce a 200ish lb. mulie off a side hill at about 150 yards years ago with his 300 mag with a standing broadside shot just behind the shoulder. Deer was DRT alright, but was also very bloodshot.
Next year he went back to his winchester mdl. 70 XTR in 30-06. That deer ended up just as dead, and we got a lot more meat.
A 30-30 is PLENTY for deer, even 250-300 lb. mulies. The 300 mag is for hitting FARTHER out, NOT for hitting HARDER at the same distance. I watched my dad litterally bounce a 200ish lb. mulie off a side hill at about 150 yards years ago with his 300 mag with a standing broadside shot just behind the shoulder. Deer was DRT alright, but was also very bloodshot.
Next year he went back to his winchester mdl. 70 XTR in 30-06. That deer ended up just as dead, and we got a lot more meat.
IllHunter
Member
God pleas watch over Bob and see he uses the right gun.
My now deceased hunting mentor took his last deer with a .300 Wby. The doe walked in to a range of about 5' while Bob was asleep in his chair. The rifle laid across the arms of the director style chair. Luckily when Bob awoke the rifle business end was pointed at the deer and Bob with out thinking or waiting, pulled the pickle.
At the distinctive sound (roar) of the big mag, Bob's son and I headed to him to help if necessary. Bob was walking with a cane and was pretty stressed. We came upon him azz over teacettle, trying to get up in the 12" new snow. The chair was on it's side and we soon noticed the smallish doe lying 10' away in the snow. After righting Bob, we inspected his kill and found a neat clean hole in the boiler room on the animal's right side and a hole big enough to insert both my balled fists into on the other side. We now have this wonderful memory of a great multi-continent hunter who took his last harvest from a side-on seated position with too much gun.
My now deceased hunting mentor took his last deer with a .300 Wby. The doe walked in to a range of about 5' while Bob was asleep in his chair. The rifle laid across the arms of the director style chair. Luckily when Bob awoke the rifle business end was pointed at the deer and Bob with out thinking or waiting, pulled the pickle.
At the distinctive sound (roar) of the big mag, Bob's son and I headed to him to help if necessary. Bob was walking with a cane and was pretty stressed. We came upon him azz over teacettle, trying to get up in the 12" new snow. The chair was on it's side and we soon noticed the smallish doe lying 10' away in the snow. After righting Bob, we inspected his kill and found a neat clean hole in the boiler room on the animal's right side and a hole big enough to insert both my balled fists into on the other side. We now have this wonderful memory of a great multi-continent hunter who took his last harvest from a side-on seated position with too much gun.
A_Swede_17_1911
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Like some one stated already the 300 mag would be ideal if you shots were going to be at longer ranges.
I would chose the 30-30, loaded with some 170 grain bullets, Or the Hornady Lever Evolution 160 Grains, if you feel you might have a shot out to 300yds. You will be served well by the 30-30.
If you feel your shot is going to be over 250 yds then maybe I would take the 300 mag.
Sounds like your just concerned about having enought gun for the black bear. You will have enough with the 30-30.
I have friends that use 300 win mags for black tails, but they also shoot from ridge to ridge. They usally miss alot more than they hit too. I think that is more the hunter than the gun though.
I would chose the 30-30, loaded with some 170 grain bullets, Or the Hornady Lever Evolution 160 Grains, if you feel you might have a shot out to 300yds. You will be served well by the 30-30.
If you feel your shot is going to be over 250 yds then maybe I would take the 300 mag.
Sounds like your just concerned about having enought gun for the black bear. You will have enough with the 30-30.
I have friends that use 300 win mags for black tails, but they also shoot from ridge to ridge. They usally miss alot more than they hit too. I think that is more the hunter than the gun though.
I stand and applaud this group, for the first time in history it seems, thoughtful, experienced wisdom has been passed on regarding caliber choice for deer. I have had it up to my noggin with people thinking .338 mags are marginal for white tail. No one says that the piddling 300winmag is the bare minimum for whitetail.
White tails do not eat you or stomp your AXX into dust if you do not kill them in their tracks. More people would take home venision with a 6.5 swede or 257 bob than with a 300 or 7 mag. You just shoot better when you do not get punched up. And no repeat NO deer is going to run off from being fairly hit with a Swede or a Bob. You will get more meat out of the deer and your gonna love being able to see the bullet hit thru the crosshairs.
White tails do not eat you or stomp your AXX into dust if you do not kill them in their tracks. More people would take home venision with a 6.5 swede or 257 bob than with a 300 or 7 mag. You just shoot better when you do not get punched up. And no repeat NO deer is going to run off from being fairly hit with a Swede or a Bob. You will get more meat out of the deer and your gonna love being able to see the bullet hit thru the crosshairs.
DavidAk311
Member
I'd add that I sometimes use a .375 H&H on deer, and ours are little Sitka Blacktails. I've watched my brother kill 50+ blacktails with his 300 winmag.
Other than being heavy to carry, I've never regretted having a larger caliber, but have on a couple of occasions wished for one...
Never saw the "too big" argument as being very sensible....use whatever you shoot well....
A 375 victim:
Other than being heavy to carry, I've never regretted having a larger caliber, but have on a couple of occasions wished for one...
Never saw the "too big" argument as being very sensible....use whatever you shoot well....
A 375 victim:
DavidAk311
Member
I'd also submit that bullet selection and placement can mean more than caliber...especially with regard to meat loss.
phantomak47
Member
Bumping this post up because it somewhat answers my question.
Does a .375 h&h do less meat damage on a say a whitetail/hog than a .300 win mag? Is bigger better in this case, rather than velocity? Or is the .375h&h too much of a cannon on a deer? I have never shot a .375 so I need some input on this.
Does a .375 h&h do less meat damage on a say a whitetail/hog than a .300 win mag? Is bigger better in this case, rather than velocity? Or is the .375h&h too much of a cannon on a deer? I have never shot a .375 so I need some input on this.
Lennyjoe
Member
My brother in law in WVA puts them down every year with his 300 Win Mag and they don't complain.
30-30 or 300 Win Mag
To much thinking is going into this matter! 30-30+Lung shot= Dead Dear
300+lung shot = Dead Dear If this mathematical explanation does not help then go with this theory! Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it!
To much thinking is going into this matter! 30-30+Lung shot= Dead Dear
300+lung shot = Dead Dear If this mathematical explanation does not help then go with this theory! Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it!
MeekandMild
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Art will probably vouch for this too; a .243 will put a deer down like it's been run over by a truck. So one should not be necessarily impressed by this picture.
Somehow the idea of a bullet traveling for 200 yards after it has gone through a deer really bothers me and I believe a lower velocity would be more suitable for deer hunting than a full power load in a 300 Win mag. I think if I had to deer hunt with one I'd probably load 150 grain ballistic tips of one brand or another over the starting measure of 4320 and pretend I was shooting a 30-06.
Somehow the idea of a bullet traveling for 200 yards after it has gone through a deer really bothers me and I believe a lower velocity would be more suitable for deer hunting than a full power load in a 300 Win mag. I think if I had to deer hunt with one I'd probably load 150 grain ballistic tips of one brand or another over the starting measure of 4320 and pretend I was shooting a 30-06.
Charles S
Member
Meek,
Have you been shooting your deer with AP ammo for long? Or do you just have no experience with the 300 Win Mag?
The increased velocities generated by magnums tend to cause bullets to open faster (unless utilizing solids) and therefore create larger wounds. Unless you are using a supper premium bullet designed for deep penetration (e.g. Barnes, Trophy Bonded, Swift) with a high sectional density (e.g. greater than 0.270) then the 300 will generally not penetrate as well as a standard caliber, but will create a much larger wound (typically more blood shot meat) with a larger energy dump.
On a large deer a 308 with a 165 gr Sierra GameKing is much more likely to give you a through and through wound than is a 300 Winchester Magnum loaded to its potential with a 165 gr Sierra Gameking.
There are a lot of valid reasons for not selecting a 300 Winchester for Deer hunting, but over penetration is not one. One can select the wrong load in any caliber and have a failure, that is the fault of the user not the cartridge. Actually bullet selection becomes more critical as you begin to push the velocity up past 3000 FPS.
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I have used a .300 WBY and .300 WSM on many deer. A few words of advice from my experiences:
1) Do not use too soft/explosive of a bullet: I have seen bullets explode on a close shots and not penetrate very much at all.
2) Do not use too tough a bullet either. I believe lesser powered, cartridges would have killed the deer, faster becuase the tough bullets would simply zip through and not expand (Fail safes/A-Frames). Did I find the deer? Yes, but they tended to run quite a bit farther compared to being hit with a more controlled, expanding bullet.
My favorite bullets for hunting with .300's are: 165-180 grain Accubonds/Partitions/Triple Shocks/ and Sciroccos.
...MHO
1) Do not use too soft/explosive of a bullet: I have seen bullets explode on a close shots and not penetrate very much at all.
2) Do not use too tough a bullet either. I believe lesser powered, cartridges would have killed the deer, faster becuase the tough bullets would simply zip through and not expand (Fail safes/A-Frames). Did I find the deer? Yes, but they tended to run quite a bit farther compared to being hit with a more controlled, expanding bullet.
My favorite bullets for hunting with .300's are: 165-180 grain Accubonds/Partitions/Triple Shocks/ and Sciroccos.
...MHO
mustanger98
Member
.300WinMag: No experience, so no comment.
.30-30Win.:
Rifle- 1894 manufactured in 1971, 22" barrel
Sights- factory gold bead front, Lyman #2 tang sight on rear
This combination works for me and a lot of other hunters. I've understood Lyman's been making that sight for use on leverguns since 1881 or '82. I can shoot this sight picture on this rifle a lot more accurately than a lot of others. I got my deer last fall with it and 150gr CoreLokt. It was a humane kill, so I figure what more do I really need? Every time I ask myself "do I need a magnum", the answer is "naahhhh".
The problem here, according to this ballistic calculator, is that if you sight in a 170grainer running 2000fps at 300yds, it's gonna be nearly 15" high at 150yds... not good if the deer's kill zone's a 10"+/- circle and you're sighted in to shoot the pipe. However... ...if you're using 150grainers, it's a 10-11" midrange trajectory. But, you do lose a lot of velocity and ft./lbs. over that distance.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html
.30-30Win.:
Rifle- 1894 manufactured in 1971, 22" barrel
Sights- factory gold bead front, Lyman #2 tang sight on rear
This combination works for me and a lot of other hunters. I've understood Lyman's been making that sight for use on leverguns since 1881 or '82. I can shoot this sight picture on this rifle a lot more accurately than a lot of others. I got my deer last fall with it and 150gr CoreLokt. It was a humane kill, so I figure what more do I really need? Every time I ask myself "do I need a magnum", the answer is "naahhhh".
The problem here, according to this ballistic calculator, is that if you sight in a 170grainer running 2000fps at 300yds, it's gonna be nearly 15" high at 150yds... not good if the deer's kill zone's a 10"+/- circle and you're sighted in to shoot the pipe. However... ...if you're using 150grainers, it's a 10-11" midrange trajectory. But, you do lose a lot of velocity and ft./lbs. over that distance.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html
MeekandMild
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DUH! (Replying in kind to uncalled for rudeness), do you know what the words "ballistic tip" and "starting load" mean?
Ballistic tips bullets are basically hollow points with the tips filled with soft-but-tough polycarbonate plastic. They are in no way AP bullets.
The starting load of IMR 4320 in a 300 Winchester magnum shooting a 150 grain bullet produces a velocity of around 2700-2800 fps and a 200 yard energy of roughly 1650 foot pounds per second. This is nearly the equivalent of the maximum load of 4350 in a .308 shooting a 150 grain bullet and is a bit milder than maximum loads in a 30-06.
I say again, DUH.
Steel Talon
Member
What exactly is overkill?.. I've always thought dead is dead , never knew it was a measurable action. Other than sometimes its fast, sometimes it's not so fast.
As for the .300 WM go for it, if your comfortable with the re-coil.. I'd say its more of a matter of rifle weight vs. field carry comfort. I've killed many an animal with mine.
However, now-a-days I use a 25-06.
Peace
ST~
EDIT: My .300 WM handloads the 168gr Hornady Spire point has always worked exemplary for me.
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ReadyontheRight
Member
No. And a 30-30 is not too small for deer. Shoot 'em both well and have fun.
quicktime
Member
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Looking at this resurrected thread, I guess I'd add that my only objection to something like a .300 Maggie is the recoil. Since an '06 works just fine to 400 and 500 yards, I don't see any particular reason to go bigger. well, not for Bambi, anyway.
If the tyopical shooting distance is inside of 300 yards, lots of "lesser" cartridges, with less recoil, will do just fine.
But if all I had was some sort of El Bigboomo, that's darned well what I'd use.
Art
If the tyopical shooting distance is inside of 300 yards, lots of "lesser" cartridges, with less recoil, will do just fine.
But if all I had was some sort of El Bigboomo, that's darned well what I'd use.
Art
Kingcreek
Member
Overkill is when the deer is dead AND REINCARNATED before it hits the ground.
I've no problem using .300 for deer. I've done it with almost no meat damage and I don't find the recoil objectionable. But the .300 is certainly more than is usually necessary to bring down a deer. I've killed more deer with a .243 but I have come to prefer the .308 as a balance of recoil, power, and terminal effect.
Charles S
Member
My apologies. Gee...I am truly sorry. I was not shooting for rude. I was shooting for sarcastic. Poor articulation on my part.
To date, I have kill 24 deer with various 300 magnums. I have yet to have over penetration as an issue. I certainly have never had a 300 Win Mag bullet (or any 30 caliber mag bullet) penetrate a deer and go 200 yards. I reiterate: Do you have any experience with the 300 magnum?
You posts still fail to answer the original question.
Further, your post demonstrate a gross lack of understanding of terminal ballistics either from lack of experience or lack of knowledge.
Actually again...you fail to answer the question. The question was.....
Not: can I load a 300 Winchester Magnum down to recoil levels I tolerate and use a fairly fragile bullet and it still work?
Actually, I do have experience with the Nosler Ballistic Tip in 165 grain weight. In 1988 I decided to build a custom 30-06 rifle and start to handload. My first load was a 165 grain Nolster balistic tip in Winchester Cases with Winchester primers and utilizing IMR 4350 powder. The load was very accurate and I took 6 deer (Central Texas - rather smallish deer) that year. Performance wise the first deer was textbook - through and through with great expansion. The next five deer I killed did not have an exit wound with 165 gr 30-06 loads (Should be similar velocities to the load you mentioned with higher sectional densities). I have not used Nosler Balistic Tips since. I understand the ballistic tip is a better bullet now, but after using the Sierra GameKing, the Nolser Solid Base Boat Tail, and the Hornady Interbond; I have never looked for better performance in the standard bullet offerings.
There is no need to load the 300 Winchester down for White Tails, there are a number of factory loads that will work just fine. I had some handloads get wet (poor packing on my part) on a trip to South Carolina last year and used the 300 Winchester 180 grain Fusion loads just fine. No problems.
My personal handload is 165 grain Triple Shock Barnes over a generous amount of Reloader 22 in whatever cases are available with Winchester LRM primers.
If I want a 308 load. I carry my 308.
Agreed. See my first post.
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