Is Colt Dead?
- Thread starter mm1ut1
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Laziness. It was too easy to do what they've been doing and live off past designs and reputation, and government contracts. The problem is, when someone beats them to a really great new design, they're finished.
Of course, you can do it in the civilian market, too. See Remington.
Not just firearms manufacturers. Or just limited to manufacturing for that matter.
A better analogy there never was.
Hole in the frame? Lock or no lock it doesn't have the choked barrel or the vent rib and from what I've seen from S&W the bluing leaves a little to be desired.
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GojuBrian
Member
I was recently in the market for a 1911. After reading up on several brands, colt, Kimber, Dan Wesson, Para, Taurus, and the like I decided to go with the Kimber Pro CDP II. I like the looks of the Colt, but I've read way too much about their lackluster quality and not being what they use to be. It's sad imo that their quality went so lax.
I hope they change things back around soon.
I hope they change things back around soon.
hwp
Member
Colt's military contracts are in NO danger of going away. How many other AR makers are unionized? None that I can think of. Obama will payback the village idiot vote (unions) with another contract.
Don't think for a second union loyalty to the left goes un-noticed by BHO. The BHO admin pushed a major auto bail out plan IMO only to appease organized labor. The govt is not required to accept the low bid. They WILL give preference to unions and minority owned suppliers.
Don't think for a second union loyalty to the left goes un-noticed by BHO. The BHO admin pushed a major auto bail out plan IMO only to appease organized labor. The govt is not required to accept the low bid. They WILL give preference to unions and minority owned suppliers.
WVleo
Member
colt ?
After finding a sock drawer Colt Lawman MKIII 2" .357 at the LGS in mint condition and shooting the revolver I am surprised Colt couldn't keep manufacturing these guns ? I know they next improved the model to MK V and while neither were hand fitted, both seem popular today when You can find 1 ? These were machine produced I think ? Mine is a sweet shooter.........WVleo
After finding a sock drawer Colt Lawman MKIII 2" .357 at the LGS in mint condition and shooting the revolver I am surprised Colt couldn't keep manufacturing these guns ? I know they next improved the model to MK V and while neither were hand fitted, both seem popular today when You can find 1 ? These were machine produced I think ? Mine is a sweet shooter.........WVleo
Colts has a history of courting military handgun contracts. Some of the C&B revolvers, the Model P and the Model 1911 were all military contract guns only and civilian sales were not made for many years. It's the way they like to conduct business.
Maybe not what you or I would like but it seems to have worked for them.
Bringing out a new revolver would be an expense that considering the craving the American public has for self loading pistols, would not help them. Even reworking old models to new standards would be difficult. Everytime S&W chnages something on thier models you can hear the hue and cry for years, even if the change is for the good.
Maybe not what you or I would like but it seems to have worked for them.
Bringing out a new revolver would be an expense that considering the craving the American public has for self loading pistols, would not help them. Even reworking old models to new standards would be difficult. Everytime S&W chnages something on thier models you can hear the hue and cry for years, even if the change is for the good.
Excluding the Walker model, where only 1000 plus a small over-run were produced before it was discontinued, all of the Colt's you mentioned were available within a year or so (often less) for commercial sales. The only Colt military model that was made exclusively for the Army was the model 1909 .45 revolver, but a commercial New Service chambered in .45 Colt was an exact duplicate except for the stocks (black hard rubber vs. plain walnut), and they were available before the government's order.
Trbon8r was correct about Colt buying new CNC machinery. I read an article at the Colt Forum by a member who toured the factory in December, 2008. He stated $3 million of new CNC machinery had very recently been purchased by Colt according to the supervisor. (I assume it is good machinery?)
So, let's hope they start making new models. I think they might just do that.
You'd think Colt would like to at least cash-in on the concealed carry snubbie market.
But, I really have no idea. However, $3 million in new CNC machinery was purchased by the civilian factory company. (IIRC, I don't think he was allowed to tour the military factory.)
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Sometimes you learn things in strange places…
Earlier this year Colt sold their archival collection… So what was that?
Well the collection mostly consisted of examples of their regular production models, kept for future examination; prototypes of possible new guns or mock-ups to show something being patented, or to show customers looking into special runs of a commemorative or what-not. In other words everything that they had done, were doing at one time or another, or proposed to do in the future. Some of the pieces in the collection dated back to before World War Two. You might have been dumbfounded while looking at handguns that should have been built, but never were. There were even some that they had planed to have made in China.
And they auctioned off the whole thing…
Because they wanted the money and also decided there was nothing in the collection they need down the road.
So much for the chance of Colt reintroducing some of those older models we all loved. Nope: They are gone… gone… gone. They didn’t even want to keep a collection to look at.
Earlier this year Colt sold their archival collection… So what was that?
Well the collection mostly consisted of examples of their regular production models, kept for future examination; prototypes of possible new guns or mock-ups to show something being patented, or to show customers looking into special runs of a commemorative or what-not. In other words everything that they had done, were doing at one time or another, or proposed to do in the future. Some of the pieces in the collection dated back to before World War Two. You might have been dumbfounded while looking at handguns that should have been built, but never were. There were even some that they had planed to have made in China.
And they auctioned off the whole thing…
Because they wanted the money and also decided there was nothing in the collection they need down the road.
So much for the chance of Colt reintroducing some of those older models we all loved. Nope: They are gone… gone… gone. They didn’t even want to keep a collection to look at.
collector14
Member
I really love my Colt revolvers, but I agree with a few other posters. If Colt would come out with new versions of the 1903 and 1908 pocket hammerless models, I think there would be a lot of folks lined up to buy them (including me).
There is no way of knowing because the buyers' identity would be considered confidential information.
One member of this forum did buy some pieces, but I won't name him unless he does so himself.
Among the "junk"
they got rid of were updated versions of the 1903/08 Pocket Model and 1908 Vest Pocket Model. Both original designs required that they be made using fully machined steel forgings, and in this day and age it wouldn't happen. Forget both as Colt won't bring them back.Yes, I read about that Old Fuff. But I'm sure they still have the "blueprints" for all models.
I mean, they certainly still have the manufacturing plans and designs on paper for the snubbies and other revolvers don't they?
I assume they could program the CNC machines to make the parts from those plans. I'm not a machinist though.
I mean, they certainly still have the manufacturing plans and designs on paper for the snubbies and other revolvers don't they?
I assume they could program the CNC machines to make the parts from those plans. I'm not a machinist though.
illinois brass man
Member
That is not a lot in the CNC equipment world if you are talking machines for mass production. That might set up a small jobshop, to build a few firearms a month.
ILBM
lanternlad1
Member
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I wouldn't bet on that. For the record during the First World War they couldn't provide the War Department with a full set of blueprints covering the 1911 pistol, and the same was true when the Navy ask for a full set covering the 1903/08 Pocket Model during World War Two.
Maybe, maybe not. Since they go rid of all the production models I wouldn't bet they kept the blueprints. Somehow I can't get through to people that Colt will never produce these guns again because they couldn't make them for a price people would be willing to pay. I believe that everything related to them has been sold, auctioned or thrown away.
Again I doubt it. If they do have the prints, dimensions and tolerances are set up to make parts with extra metal for hand fitting at certain points. Hand fitting is no longer acceptable in the 21st century. Guns aren't forged steel anymore - they make them out of molded polymer.
Doesn't matter. Gun parts are molded, stamped or made on automated machinery.
Vern Humphrey
Member
True. For all of Browning's genius, his designs required tweaking when it came to mass production. Colt had developed all sorts of little gimmicks -- and not documented them. Even if they had blueprints, those showed the M1911 as designed, not as actually built.
I would seriously doubt that Colt could mass produce a quality revolver nowadays -- especially a new design.
Mike OTDP
Member
I figure that the potential market for a 1903 or 1908 isn't that big...and there are too many old guns floating around. There might be a good market for refinishing and restamping, but it's not that big.
The key is to go where the competition isn't. Don't bother doing a New and Improved 1911...EVERYBODY is making them. Ditto for the polymer DAO 9mm/.40.
A revived snubby? Ruger and S&W have that market pretty well sewn up. You would need something new, like the Ruger LCR, to make a serious inroad. It WOULD be possible to break in...if you had a dramatic change in the lockwork geometry. Remember, S&W has a better DA trigger pull than Colt - and it's all in the geometry of the lockwork. Address that issue, and Colt would have something.
Personally, I still like the idea of a remanufactured Colt percussion revolver...remade to a very high standard.
However, in the long term, I think the future may lay with electronics. People have gotten accustomed to having a rail...and electrical gadgets on the rail. And the high-end target pistols are rapidly making the transition to electronic triggers...which can deliver a dazzlingly good trigger pull, even by free pistol standards. There would seem to be a potential market for a fully electronic pistol...electronic trigger, built-in light/laser, etc. Maybe even with a red dot or holographic sight - possibly with a flip-up display that pops up and turns on when the gun is drawn.
The industry is having a good year, but that will end sometime. And whoever is ready for the future will stand a lot better chance of surviving than a firm that was geared to the past.
The key is to go where the competition isn't. Don't bother doing a New and Improved 1911...EVERYBODY is making them. Ditto for the polymer DAO 9mm/.40.
A revived snubby? Ruger and S&W have that market pretty well sewn up. You would need something new, like the Ruger LCR, to make a serious inroad. It WOULD be possible to break in...if you had a dramatic change in the lockwork geometry. Remember, S&W has a better DA trigger pull than Colt - and it's all in the geometry of the lockwork. Address that issue, and Colt would have something.
Personally, I still like the idea of a remanufactured Colt percussion revolver...remade to a very high standard.
However, in the long term, I think the future may lay with electronics. People have gotten accustomed to having a rail...and electrical gadgets on the rail. And the high-end target pistols are rapidly making the transition to electronic triggers...which can deliver a dazzlingly good trigger pull, even by free pistol standards. There would seem to be a potential market for a fully electronic pistol...electronic trigger, built-in light/laser, etc. Maybe even with a red dot or holographic sight - possibly with a flip-up display that pops up and turns on when the gun is drawn.
The industry is having a good year, but that will end sometime. And whoever is ready for the future will stand a lot better chance of surviving than a firm that was geared to the past.
All this talk of old Colt designs...
I would imagine that if there was such a market for these pistols and revolvers than somebody else would already be a making them. I can't imagine that Colt's patents on these old designs are still in effect.
Colt makes 1911's, AR15's and SAA revolvers...and those are three extremely popular handgun designs among civilian shooters. The 1911 and AR15 in particular are probably the most popular auto pistol and most popular rifle in the United States today.
I've come to understand that Colt will never win with the consumers much like S&W will never win with the consumers.
The reason is that they have to compete with their past as well as the other companies like Glock, SIG, etc.
You have a great divide of Colt "fans". Those that want nothing more than Colt from the 1940's with a line-up consisting of nothing but blued steel, walnut, DA revolvers, SAA's, 1911's and 1903's and 08's.
Then you have the Colt fans that want anyting BUT "more of the same". A small .38 Special and .380 ACP pocket pistol for CCW, a new auto pistol design to compete for military and police contracts, a new rifle designs to replace the M16/M4, etc. etc.
If they introduce new handguns designs like a polymer frame hi-cap 9mm people will complain and say "Why don't they just bring back *Insert classic model name here* instead of producing a Glock clone like everyone else?".
And if they bring back the Python, Diamondback, Anaconda, Mustang, etc. people will complain and say "Ugg...more "replica" models like they did with the Series 70 and Delta Elite.....When will Colt introduce a NEW model!?!"
BTW: Colt is already planning to introduce a new auto pistol in January 2010 known as the Colt Tactical Pistol
I would imagine that if there was such a market for these pistols and revolvers than somebody else would already be a making them. I can't imagine that Colt's patents on these old designs are still in effect.
Colt makes 1911's, AR15's and SAA revolvers...and those are three extremely popular handgun designs among civilian shooters. The 1911 and AR15 in particular are probably the most popular auto pistol and most popular rifle in the United States today.
I've come to understand that Colt will never win with the consumers much like S&W will never win with the consumers.
The reason is that they have to compete with their past as well as the other companies like Glock, SIG, etc.
You have a great divide of Colt "fans". Those that want nothing more than Colt from the 1940's with a line-up consisting of nothing but blued steel, walnut, DA revolvers, SAA's, 1911's and 1903's and 08's.
Then you have the Colt fans that want anyting BUT "more of the same". A small .38 Special and .380 ACP pocket pistol for CCW, a new auto pistol design to compete for military and police contracts, a new rifle designs to replace the M16/M4, etc. etc.
If they introduce new handguns designs like a polymer frame hi-cap 9mm people will complain and say "Why don't they just bring back *Insert classic model name here* instead of producing a Glock clone like everyone else?".
And if they bring back the Python, Diamondback, Anaconda, Mustang, etc. people will complain and say "Ugg...more "replica" models like they did with the Series 70 and Delta Elite.....When will Colt introduce a NEW model!?!"
BTW: Colt is already planning to introduce a new auto pistol in January 2010 known as the Colt Tactical Pistol
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Vern Humphrey
Member
One of the problems that Colt faces is lack of familiarity to new shooters.
For example, there was a comment above about S&W having better triggers. That's not true -- the triggers on my Colts will equal or beat any S&W in single action shooting. In double action shooting, Colt triggers aren't inferior, but they are different, and call for a different shooting style. If you're shooting a S&W, you pull straight through. For a Colt, you "stage" the trigger -- there is a stopping place in the DA pull just before sear release. If you understand and practice, this staging will allow you to do some excellent fast DA shooting.
For example, there was a comment above about S&W having better triggers. That's not true -- the triggers on my Colts will equal or beat any S&W in single action shooting. In double action shooting, Colt triggers aren't inferior, but they are different, and call for a different shooting style. If you're shooting a S&W, you pull straight through. For a Colt, you "stage" the trigger -- there is a stopping place in the DA pull just before sear release. If you understand and practice, this staging will allow you to do some excellent fast DA shooting.
AJD, I think you just did a good job of summing up the dilemma Colt has with the civilian market. The only thing I would add is that folks like myself that are happy with their current production Colt don't necessarily fall into either of the categories you defined. I would like to see Colt produce a modern mass produced high-cap autoloader that the military, police, and civilian markets would fall all over themselves to buy. Basically if Colt ever wants to grow beyond what they have become which is a small boutique gun manufacturer, they need to build something that has mass market appeal. But at the same time I don't want Colt to stop doing what they do so well, which is building great 1911s and SAA revolvers.
The alternative, apparently, is to sell off all their machinery and prototypes, and do nothing...
One has to understand the value of a "flagship" product, too. There are reasons to make a Python even if you don't profit directly from it. Colt once had a reputation as "the best" revolver maker, whether or not their standard fare was superior. They threw that baby out with the Python.
Allow, yes. But why switch? Colt's window of opportunity for proving that people should want to re-learn DA shooting, just so they can buy a Colt, is completely shut now. Besides, even back in Colt's heyday as a DA revolver maker, competitors didn't care for the Colt DA trigger all that much.
Colt does appear to be dead.
Too bad. But it's so.
Extremely Pro Gun
Member
Yes! Colt no longer cares about civillian sales because military contracts can easliy keep their pockets full. Their quality has gone waaaay down and now people just pay for the name on the gun.
New Colt models definately do not live up to the Colt herritage. This is sad but true. I was once a huge Colt fan, now when I am looking for the upmost quality I have to look elsewhere like Kimber (1911s), and Ruger (revolvers and I HATE ANTI GUNNERS!!).
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