Is enjoyment a reason to carry a specific CCW?

[BSA1]

This is the reason I put the S&W Model 10 at the top of my list. It's design is over 100 years old and there are many, many more high quality modern handguns made since then. The Model 10 is as basic of a double action revolver you will ever find...fixed sights, 4" barrel, 38 Special cartridge. No longer in use by most LEO's, on the large side for conceal carry, reloads from loose rounds or bulky speedloaders and limited by the power of the 38 Special cartridge. The only change I have made on my old warhorse is the addition of a Tyler T-Grip.

It's redeeming feature for me is I shoot this gun very well and accurately.

 

[sappyg]

Question:

Do you ever carry a specific handgun or caliber simply because you "enjoy" it even if you believe there are better options available for CCW?

Yes... Maybe.... I don't know how to answer that. I like so many calibers. I think we all would if we could.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Ed Ames: It is possible that the jury will draw conclusions from just about anything.

Possible, yes, but the question is one of risk.

And, of course, the judge, as gatekeeper, will rule on the relevance of the subset of "just about anything" before admitting it into evidence.

Statements about one's "enjoyment" of a firearm would almost certainly be considered relevant in a trial on a use of force incident.

Attorneys use jury simulations and real world experience to measure risk.

Anything that one has posted, worn, mailed, jotted down, etc. that might indicate the possibility of a violent mind-set is not unlikely to prove troublesome in an investigation, charging decision, or trial on a case in which the evidence is ambiguous or contradictory.

This is not a concern to be taken lightly.

 

[CajunBass]

I'm sure not going to lug around something I don't like.

 

[Mike J]

There are other factors to what I carry. Often during warm weather it is a Kel Tec P11 due to it's small size & 10 round capacity. When the weather is cooler it is a XD-40. But on the weekends & when I can dress around it I really like to carry my Ruger SR 1911. I like the size & feel of the gun. I shoot it well & am comfortable with it's manual of arms. I also like the .45 acp caliber.

 

[Nom de Forum]

..... I have a Spiritual connection to my weapons and going armed is a Spiritual thing with me as well as practical. I suspect it is for many who go armed whether they know it/admit it or not.

VooDoo

In this view you and I are polar opposites. I carry what I have confidence in, and is appropriate and comfortable for whatever clothing I am wearing. Half a lifetime ago I did have an almost spiritual connection to the 1911 but for more than 25 years I have been a recovering ex-member of the Cooper/1911/.45ACP Cult. I think you should feel good about what you are carrying but not be influenced in that choice by sentimental reasons.

 

[1SOW]

I agree with those above that 'enjoying' the pistol is a big benefit for the pistol being effective if the need arrives.

My Sig 239 is 100% effective, 100% reliable with any ammo and I shoot it pretty well.
The R-51 I'm expecting back from Remington next month rolleyes; I really enjoyed shooting and it too was accurate, a little easier to carry, but held less ammo.

I will carry the R-51 if it proves reliable. If it doesn't, I'll still shoot it for enjoyment.

Nothing to do with 'spiritual', but an appreciation of design, fit, form and effectiveness.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Wither or not grown men will admit it carrying a gun today is more of a status symbol than anything. Replace the Épée, fencing school and codpiece with a glock 19, tattoos and a trip to gunsite and you have a pretty darn accurate comparison through the ages.

HAVING A GUN at all puts you so far ahead of the game on an infinitesimally rare and unlikely occurrence that any additional considerations are literally like planning ahead for what you'll do with the money THE SECOND TIME you win the lottery

So why not carry something you like assuming it meets a basic standard of accuracy, effectiveness and reliability

 

[Nom de Forum]

Wither or not grown men will admit it carrying a gun today is more of a status symbol than anything. Replace the Épée, fencing school and codpiece with a glock 19, tattoos and a trip to gunsite and you have a pretty darn accurate comparison through the ages.

That is balderdash! While it may be true that some men acting more like boys than men think carrying a gun conveys higher status in our society, it does not. For an object to convey a higher/desirable status by mere procession it must be seen and considered as such by a high percentage of people. People do not see my carry pistols. If people did see my carry pistols most of them would judge my status as low/undesirable. The anti-gunners and even some pro-gunners would label me as having low/undesirable status for being armed in an inappropriate social setting. Some pro-gunners would label me as having low/undesirable status because of the type of guns I carry not meeting their “high” standards. If you are carrying a gun for displaying your status you are not favorably impressing many people.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by R. W. Dale: Wither or not grown men will admit it carrying a gun today is more of a status symbol than anything.​

I carry concealed. How that could be considered a status symbol is beyond me.

Replace the Épée, fencing school and codpiece with a glock 19, tattoos and a trip to gunsite and you have a pretty darn accurate comparison through the ages.

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say.

HAVING A GUN at all puts you so far ahead of the game on an infinitesimally rare and unlikely occurrence that any additional considerations are literally like planning ahead for what you'll do with the money THE SECOND TIME you win the lottery

Three things: first, the chance that you will need a defensive weapon on a particular day are indeed infinitesimal, but the chances that you will need one, whether for deterrence or for something more serious, at least once during your lifetime are much, much, higher; second; the consequences of such an incident, should you be unable to address it effectively, would likely be extremely serious; and third, "having a gun at all" might not suffice, if it is not sufficiently effective in your hands.

It all comes down to very basic risk management.

So why not carry something you like assuming it meets a basic standard of accuracy, effectiveness and reliability.

I won't settle for a "basic standard". It needs to give me the best chance, in the event that it is needed.

Something I "like"? That never really enters my mind.

I would "like" a factory engraved Colt Model P with synthetic ivory grips, or a Colt Woodsman Match Target engraved by J. C. Prudhomme, but I would not select either for concealed carry.

As far as my carry piece goes, I consider it a tool, and nothing more.

 

[R.W.Dale]

How can it be a status symbol if it's concealed?

You don't enjoy talking about it to other people on the interwebz?

 

[Kleanbore]

You don't enjoy talking about it to other people on the interwebz?

I like to learn and to try to impart knowledge, but my carrying a gun unnoticed affords me no status.

And the number of people who converse with me here whom I have ever met can be counted on one's fingers, with fingers to spare.

 

[Nom de Forum]

I like to learn and to try to impart knowledge, but my carrying a gun unnoticed affords me no status.

And the number of people who converse with me here whom I have ever met can be counted on one's fingers, with fingers to spare.

Ditto, except I have never met in person with anyone on THR who knew who I am on THR.

 

[Hometeached1]

Before this gets closed, I'm going to throw my two cents in.

I do carry handguns that I enjoy, but there are many reasons I enjoy them. Some it's the craftsmanship and others it's the size/feel, but I have to be proficient with them.

I had a G19 that was nice and I liked it, I shot it well and it held lots of ammo, but I tried a single stack .45 S&W 3rd gen and shot better with it from the first range trip, so the G19 was sold to fund the purchase of a different handgun.

As far as saying you enjoy a handgun will hurt you in court, it seems carrying spare ammo, a back up gun and a high capacity handgun could cause just as much harm. If it comes up in court, I'll explain why just like I would if asked about my BUG or spare ammo.

Just my opinion and worth as much as you paid for it.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Hometeached1: If it comes up in court, I'll explain why just like I would if asked about my BUG or spare ammo.

Don't count on it.

The prosecution might to choose to introduce something that you have written, posted, jotted down, or said in a public speech, if it might lend credence to an argument that you had been predisposed to violence. The judge might decide that it is relevant and allow the statements to be introduced as evidence. That might color the thinking of the jury as the firearm remains in their view for the duration of the trial.

The only way that you would have an opportunity to "explain why" would be for your defense attorney to put you on the stand and to ask the question. That would open the door to cross examination that could prove devastating. It is not likely that he or she would want to raise the issue.

Your spare magazine could be effectively justified by an expert witness as responsibly reflecting proper SD training, should the need arise. That has been done. Your testimony would likely be limited to questions of fact about when, where, how, why, and by whom you were advised to carry a BUG or extra magazine, or how you had otherwise concluded that doing so was a prudent thing to do.

But statements to the effect that you "enjoy" carrying a particular gun, particularly because it is "hard hitting", could prove more troublesome.

 

[Hometeached1]

Don't count on it.

The prosecution might to choose to introduce something that you have written, posted, jotted down, or said in a public speech, if it might lend credence to an argument that you had been predisposed to violence. The judge might decide that it is relevant and allow the statements to be introduced as evidence. That might color the thinking of the jury as the firearm remains in their view for the duration of the trial.

The only way that you would have an opportunity to "explain why" would be for your defense attorney to put you on the stand and to ask the question. That would open the door to cross examination that could prove devastating. It is not likely that he or she would want to raise the issue.

Your spare magazine could be effectively justified by an expert witness as responsibly reflecting proper SD training, should the need arise. That has been done. Your testimony would likely be limited to questions of fact about when, where, how, why, and by whom you were advised to carry a BUG or extra magazine, or how you had otherwise concluded that doing so was a prudent thing to do.

But statements to the effect that you "enjoy" carrying a particular gun, particularly because it is "hard hitting", could prove more troublesome.

I get what you are saying, but isn't saying you have confidence in your CCW online just as bad? Maybe, I'm just reading it wrong.

BTW: I was talking in light of the OP's description of enjoying.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Hometeached1: I get what you are saying, but isn't saying you have confidence in your CCW online just as bad? Maybe, I'm just reading it wrong.

Anything you write that is relevant can be introduced.

Your having said that you would not carry a firearm unless you were confident in its dependability would be hard to use effectively against you.

BTW: I was talking in light of the OP's description of enjoying.

That was "there's something thrilling to me about throwing 230 grains of lead downrange with each trigger press."

 

[Nom de Forum]

I get what you are saying, but isn't saying you have confidence in your CCW online just as bad? Maybe, I'm just reading it wrong.

BTW: I was talking in light of the OP's description of enjoying.

If I understand your post you are making a clear distinction between the words "confidence" and "enjoying". I have confidence that the pistols I CCW will function as designed to defend my life but when carrying them I am not enjoying the act of doing so. I would enjoy a life where I never believed I needed to CCW but that of course will only be found in the Afterlife.

 

[dirtman]

status symbol.... in a way not far off the mark.... status goes a long way for those of us that qualify for a ccw..... for those who have spent far to much time in the jail house .... their symbol of status does just the opposite..... so yes in a way it is a status symbol......
of one, that up to this moment has lived a good clean life in the eyes of the law.....

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by dirtman: status symbol.... in a way not far off the mark.... status goes a long way for those of us that qualify for a ccw..... for those who have spent far to much time in the jail house .... their symbol of status does just the opposite..... so yes in a way it is a status symbol......
of one, that up to this moment has lived a good clean life in the eyes of the law.....

From wiki: "A status symbol is a perceived visible, external denotation of one's social position and perceived indicator of economic or social status." Emphasis added.

The record necessary to qualify for concealed carry or to possess a firearm is just that. It permits the lawful ownership and more.

It does not visibly demote or indicate anything to anyone, except to the issuing authority, unless one chooses to advertise it.

The comment, however, was that carrying a gun is "more of a status symbol than anything." Of course, felons carry guns when they so choose.

For some open carriers, the gun may serve at least in part as some kind of status symbol, but that is likely not true for very many at all.

A firearm carried concealed denotes or indicates nothing, in terms of status or anything else.

A firearm drawn or presented when needed denotes and indicates quite a lot, but status would not be on the list.

 

[Hometeached1]

If I understand your post you are making a clear distinction between the words "confidence" and "enjoying". I have confidence that the pistols I CCW will function as designed to defend my life but when carrying them I am not enjoying the act of doing so. I would enjoy a life where I never believed I needed to CCW but that of course will only be found in the Afterlife.

I agree that I would like not need a firearm for SD and that we do not live in that world, so we carry them to defend ourselves and loved ones.

The part I don't get is how liking and enjoying a certain firearm, or saying that we like bigger bullets better is bad.

Maybe what I mean by enjoy is different that what you and others mean. (That I like the firearm and appropriate the craftsmanship that it took to make it.) I'm not trying to get into an argument, I'm just trying to understand why it is so wrong to say it.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Hometeached1: The part I don't get is how liking and enjoying a certain firearm, or saying that we like bigger bullets better is bad.

Look: an objective discussion about what kind of firearm is likely to prove more effective in defending against a violent criminal actor is one thing. One might cite findings that less recoil or a better grip or a larger magazine (all facilitating more hits more quickly with combat accuracy when immediately stopping an attacker is crucial) is desirable; one might point out findings about penetration; or one might point out that experts have found that a larger permanent wound channel is more effective than a smaller one. Not that those things might end up in serious discussion, it is just that they can be objectively defended by experts supporting your defense.

But do you really think that it would serve you well to have words played back that you like to shoot bigger bullets, in a situation in which your defense of justification after a use of force incident is being challenged in court?

How do you think that would sound?

I'm not trying to get into an argument, I'm just trying to understand why it is so wrong to say it.

It is not "wrong to say it". It is just that when there is a dispute about whether your actions were in fact immediately necessary to defend your self, what you have said can give an impression of your state of mind at the time,

 

[Hometeached1]

Kleanbore, I'm getting a better understanding of what you are saying. I guess I'm confusing range fun in that I enjoy shooting bigger rounds from my carry gun at the range. (I know there is a difference in a SD shooting situation and a range trip.)

Thank you for being patient with me.

 

[Kleanbore]

Happy to be at your service.

 

[ljnowell]

I believe I have seen it all now. We have finally reached the point of magazine writer induced paranoia that if we admit online we like our concealed carry pieces we will be convicted in a court trial.

I think it's probably crossed the line of normal paranoia.