Is Hunting Shack .45-70 Government loads safe for use in antique trapdoor rifles?

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45223

45223

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Technical Information:
Caliber: .45-70 Government
Bullet Weight: 405 Grains
Bullet Style: Rimrock Hard-Cast Round Nose Flat Point Lead
Bullet Brinell Hardness(BHN): 19
Case Type: Brass
Ballistics Information:
Muzzle Velocity: 1300 fps.
Muzzle Energy: 1520 ft. lbs.

http://www.selwayarmory.com/hsm-45-...oint-cowboy-action-lead-box-of-20-rounds.html

From what I've read the Max pressure recommended for Trapdoor 45-70 ammo is 28,000 PSI.
How do I find out what the PSI is for this round since it does not say? 405 grain at 1300 FPS is what PSI?

This is one of the cheapest 45-70s I can find. Holy crap they're expensive. I'll really need to get a reloading press if I want to shoot this a lot.


My trapdoor is a model 1884 made in 1889 I think if it matters. I think the 1884 models got thicker receivers more so than the previous ones.


Also very prudent question. I'd like to get a bayonet for it. Will any 45-70 trapdoor bayonet work for it? I know for some Mosins some are too tight and others too loose and it's best to go in store in person to get one that fits yours. Although no gun store/surplus store/antique store has any trapdoor bayonets in my area. I'm worried by getting one online it might not fit right. If it's too small it shouldn't be an issue since I can shave some metal off.

Also, if anyone knows, somewhat minor of a question. But does it matter what type of ram rod you get? Are there threaded and unthreaded ones? This one here seems like it could do the job I dont mind reproduction stuff. http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=1161&osCsid=dced

Idk if certain models are picky about ram/cleaning rods or whatnot.
 
Howdy

I don't recall ever seeing pressure information on a box of cartridges. I doubt an ammo company will tell you the pressure their cartridges are loaded to, even if you asked them.

SAAMI maximum pressure for 45-70 is 28,000 PSI. It is purposely kept low because of all the old Trapdoors and other old rifles still out there. So in theory at least, the stuff you are talking about should be OK for your Trapdoor if it adheres to SAAMI standards.

Yes, you need to get starting loading 45-70, and you should consider loading it with Black Powder.
 
Pressure cannot be determined without actual testing. The list of variables makes this impossible. Bullet hardness, bearing surface, case capacity, powder, primer and probably other stuff I haven't mentioned. There are programs that can give a good idea of pressure , but, you need to have all the information on what's being used. This load pretty much duplicates original specs so MAY BE SAFE. Most ammo loaded above specs is labeled in some way.

I would contact the company. They may not tell you what the pressure is. However , not wanting to get sued if your gun blows up, they will probably say whether it is in the range that your firearm can handle. Of course this is no guarantee. The gun is well over 100 years old.
 
All other things being equal (which of course they never are;)) 45-70/400gr doing 1,250 is standard BP-era performance.
Notice that I did not say "load" since the specific powder pressure/profile makes a considerable difference.

See HERE, and HERE

Given you are shooting an original, I'd suggest that unless you truly know what HuntingShack used as a powder, you are flying a bit blind.
Call them.... You might be surprised and they might tell you
 
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It is not generally safe to run 28KPSI loads in a trapdoor.

A 405gr at 1300 ft/s is well within the performance level that it's reasonable to expect from a black powder .45-70. 68 to 70 grains of black powder under a 405gr. bullet gives you in the neighborhood of 1300 ft/s. The potential issue is that this is a nitro load, and depending on what powder was chosen it might or might not be higher pressure than the black powder load. That said, every single trapdoor safe load in the Lyman manual I've got here gets that sort of velocity (~1400 ft/s in a 24" barrel). So if they chose a reasonable powder, there will be no problem. It's about 99% the load is safe.

I would call and ask them what they can tell you to clear up that last 1%.
 
I used to shoot older in proof British shotguns. They weren't designed to handle modern factory loads. I knew the pressure they were tested at and loaded accordingly, under 9000 psi.

Because none of those rifles have a standard proof other than the assumed black powder that was used I wouldn't use any modern smokeless powder ammo until I knew the pressure of that ammo. If the company won't tell you then don't use it. The only really safe way to address this is to use the powder the rifle was designed for or load to BP pressures using smokeless powder. There are some powders out there that will give you BP pressures, some will even go under those pressures.
 
If memory serves me correctly, the 1884's were "improved" with the Buffington rear sight that used a rack and pinion windage adjustment, and a flimsy round sliding rod bayonet that was developed for it. Does this sound like yours?

The 1873 models, manufactured to 1880, used left over Union Army Springfield epee (triangular) style bayonets left over from the War of Northern Aggression. When those ran out, a new round combination cleaning rod / bayonet was designed for the Trapdoors in the 1880's and the rifles were modified to use it.

'Twas the same hairbrained idea some nut job came up with for the early 1903's until Teddy (TR) killed the round sliding rod bayonet in 1905 and forced the Ordnance Dept to issue a decent 16" long blade (knife) style, the M1905 that carried us through two World Wars.

Have you considered loading with Pyrodex RS or Blackpowder? Could then shoot authentic loads with all the smoke and smells of the period. Equipment is simple to get started. Read up on it from recognized BPCR sources. I have a portable Lyman 310 reloading tool set with large handle tongs for 45-70 Gov't and a muzzleloading blackpowder measure. This can be carried out in the field and used at the bench. It is similar to what 19th century gun makers supplied with cased rifles.

I also have conventional RCBS dies for my turret press, but that is stationary.

For modern loads, I use IMR 3031 to drive 405 grain cast RNFP for my reproduction 1874 McNelly Sharps carbine around 1200 fps. If you want pressures and velocities together, check out the Lyman Reloading Manual. Pressures are in C.U.P. rather than psi, but conversion tables are available.

By the way, these "old" loads will hammer deer and black bear.
 
I shoot an 1884 trapdoor almost weekly. I load a 405 grain bullet from Missouri Bullets over a powder charge of 33 grains of H4895. This is very easy on the rifle and my shoulder and gives excellent accuracy out to 100 yds. (will group within 6 inches and I note, I am 73 and have rather poor eyesight. I am sure if my eyesight was better that could be improved.) If you really want to enjoy shooting one of these antiques, you must learn to reload. I started out with a basic Lee Reloader kit and it served it's purpose well. Note, the original sights are regulated to 200 yds at the lowest setting. This will cause the rifle to shoot quite high at 100 yds. The solution is to make a taller front sight. It can be replaced by driving out the pin and installing a taller one. There are sites online that will explain how to do this. The fun of shooting a 130 year old rifle is well worth the effort. Good luck and enjoy this piece of history.
 
I did some research because I'm thinking about a 45-70 rifle myself. I'm a reloader and tech wonk so I need some numbers before I start throwing loads together. I found some interesting numbers on this site.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=415

They have developed loads for the 45-70 trap door actions and don't mind giving you their max pressure rating. They also don't mind charging you an arm and a leg for their ammo either. They know their market will be people who don't reload.

SAAMI has set 45-70 pressure levels @ 28,000 PSI, which is potentially enough pressure to damage trap door actions, depending on the pressure curve of the ammo. Most authorities believe that 18,000 to 20,000 PSI is safe for all trap door actions that are in normal operating condition.

From this you can determine if the ammo you want to use is safe if they will flatly state that their pressure is lower than 18000 psi. If they won't I wouldn't use it.

I know there are smokeless powders that will allow one to load below that threshold. Since you don't reload there is really no reason to go any further with this here. I think I'm already hooked on the idea though and will be devising a load for my next rifle. :D
 
Crowman said:
If memory serves me correctly, the 1884's were "improved" with the Buffington rear sight that used a rack and pinion windage adjustment, and a flimsy round sliding rod bayonet that was developed for it. Does this sound like yours?
Click to expand...

I think you're thinking of the 1888s. Mine takes the regular bayonets.
 
For what it's worth, I don't think the trapdoor is going to like that skinny hard cast bullet. The trapdoor tends to like softer bullets sized a bit larger that what the modern lever guns like.
Should not damage the gun but don't expect much in the way of accuracy.
 
So I emailed them and they emailed me back "The Cowboy Action load is trapdoor safe."

They didn't tell me the pressure load but apparently most people here think it should be fine so I'll go ahead and try it.
 
Well....
Let's hope it isn't TrailBoss.





(you might pull a bullet and ensure it ain't a fluffy flat donut)


.
 
45223 said:
Yes.
Click to expand...


I'm fascinated with 19th century small arms and just curious, because tracking Trapdoors is both interesting and frustrating. I've never been able to latch onto one, though. I remember seeing oak barrels full of them in local hardware stores back in the '50's when I was a kid. Back then, you couldn't give them away. I remember buying a bayonet for a quarter.

The 1873's used the detachable socket bayonets up in to about 1880-1882. There was also a trowel bayonet that was supposed to combine a shovel with a sticker. Was never successful. The 1880-1882 models were a small run that used a triangular combo cleaning rod / bayonet (about 1000 made), the first attempt at this sort of thing. Part of this group were modified in 1884 for a new rear sight and round cleaning rod / bayonet combo (2nd attempt) and some of these marked Model 1884's were actually made in 1887. Some models were not marked at all. This is one reason it is interesting to research these. In 1888, the third attempt at a combo cleaning rod / bayonet was tried, and these were made up to 1892, when the Krag was adopted.

There were some left over nut jobs in the various rifle boards who continued to try to reserect the the combo cleaning rod / bayonet again in 1903. I attached some images below.

image.jpeg
This is from a period manual.

image.jpeg

Does your rear sight look like this? This is the Buffington.

image.jpeg
Is this your rifle? It is a Model1884 but takes 1873 socket bayonet. There are several companies making reproductions but with original scabbards. IMA has some, along with period correct slings.

image.jpeg


Or is this your rifle? This is also a Model 1884 that is equipped with 2nd model cleaning rod / bayonet.

Both rifles gave serrated triggers and Buffington rear sights. These are the two main determinants for the model 1884. Target shooters liked the Buffington, but soldiers thought it sucked. You are very fortunate in having one of these babies. Would make a wonderful Indian Wars period Infantryman's impression. Commercial Cowboy loads are loaded down for these rifles. Just have headspace checked.
 
45223 said:
So I emailed them and they emailed me back "The Cowboy Action load is trapdoor safe."

They didn't tell me the pressure load but apparently most people here think it should be fine so I'll go ahead and try it.
Click to expand...

Maybe come at this from another direction. Ask them what powder they are using. If they will tell you that you can always weigh a charge. I don't like this business of being so vague. Obviously you are looking to buy factory ammo so why all the secrecy. Buffalo Bore tells you their loads are <20,000 psi. WTH, a reloader wouldn't be asking those questions because there is plenty of published loads that will yield that pressure. That's why BB doesn't make a big deal out of it.
 
The most important unknown factor here is likely to be the condition of your rifle, and no one can judge that without actually inspecting it.

Unless youre absolutely sure the weapon is safe to shoot, it'd be a good idea to have a gunsmith that's knowledgeable about original trapdoors check it out. 130 years is a long time and time can be hard on machinery.

SAAMI maximum pressure for the 45-70 is 28,000 "PSI" with both the transducer and copper crusher systems.

That may not sound like much compared to more modern calibers, but try to visualise fifteen 1967 Volkswagen Beetles stacked up on each square inch of the inside of your rifle's chamber.

Gunsmiths charge WAY less than Surgeons or Morticians...
 
I strongly recommend a BP load. 70 grains behind the 500 grain bullet (that is the old rifle load, carbines used the 405 grain to reduce the brutality to the shooter). The 70 grains need to be compressed into a pellet, with the bullet sitting just on the powder. Magnum rifle primers are necessary to bust up the pellet. Keep in mind that the Trapdoor was still Civil War Minie Ball (bullet) technology - shallow grooves and equal width lands. The 500 grain bullet obturates and grabs the rifling due to the charge and the bullet mass (inertia). The 405 had a hollow base, to expand into the rifling. Soft, but not dead soft, bullets are needed for accuracy. I love the Trapdoor - stupidly traded mine away after a lot of fun, thinking I could get another when I was flush. Fifteen years ago....
 
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