Is It a Shotgun or an Exempt Antique??

[Loyalist Dave]

Folks, I know of a fellow with a serviceable 4 gauge, percussion shotgun, black powder only of course. Now I know that the gun is classified as an "antique" under NFA regulations, BUT I also know that the US Fish and Wildlife Service (or some such sub-branch) sets regulations on waterfowl hunting..., and they prohibit "shotguns larger than 10 gauge". So..., the questions is..., does anyone know where I find the regulation that would allow the use of the 4 gauge for geese, or does the USFWS regard any shotgun, antique or otherwise, as a "shotgun" contrary to the NFA?

LD

 

[Sam1911]

Interesting question. They also list as illegal for waterfowl hunting punt guns, battery guns, and swivel guns, and I'm almost positive there was never an example of either of those that fired fixed smokeless ammo, so they may not give much weight to the "antique and replica" status of the arm.

I'm looking into it...

 

[Sam1911]

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2009/octqtr/pdf/50cfr20.21.pdf

This is the actual CFR text on the matter.

Notice that under non-lead shot, it specifically says that loose shot for muzzleloading must also be non-lead, indicating that antique arms/methods do not give you a free pass on the regs.

Still looking...

 

[Loyalist Dave]

They also list as illegal for waterfowl hunting punt guns, battery guns, and swivel guns

Yes I noticed this too, and the Black Powder Shotgun Community knows that it's no-lead regardless, and because of the lead restriction being universal, and the part that you mentioned, I was betting that the 10 gauge rule applies throughout. Thanks for looking.

LD

 

[Sam1911]

I looked in the Definitions section and they don't take the space to define "shotgun" at all. To my way of looking at it, then, a shotgun is a shotgun.

You could always call your local Department of Natural Resources (or equivalent) and ask how they'd enforce that law. They'll answer a question like that.

 

[exbiologist]

I highly doubt it would be legal to use a 4 bore or 8 bore or anything larger than 10 regardless of whether or not it was a muzzleloader. 10 guage is the limit. Most blackpowder shotguns that I am familiar with people using are 12 bores or smaller.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well, without them saying in writing that a bp shotgun is not a shotgun..., I'd have to say don't do it! Too bad as I was thinking of having one made myself. Row out to an island, shoot one round, collect your limit, row back, clean birds the rest of the morning.

I also asked him how he plans on not shooting over his limit, for unless he gets a perfect numbered flight, OR gets two or so that equal a perfect flight, he's either wasting ammo or hitting too many geese.

A moot point I guess! Thanks for the help folks!

LD

 

[ArmedBear]

A muzzleloader is not a regulated firearm for the purposes of interstate commerce. It does not need to go through a licensed dealer, and no 4473 forms are required for any transfer or sale.

This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with hunting regulations, either Federal or State. If these regs say, "10 Gauge or smaller", then they mean "10 Gauge or smaller", end of story. Drilling, flintlock, over-under, it doesn't matter.

4 Gauge muzzleloading or black powder cartridge punt guns were exactly the guns that nearly drove our waterfowl to extinction, and they were part of the hunting methods specifically banned when waterfowl hunting was first regulated. An exemption for "antiques" would completely defeat the purpose of the laws. Furthermore, if there were such an exemption, you would expect functional antique punt guns to cost in the 6-figure range...

A crossbow is not a firearm, either, under Federal law. However, many states only allow crossbows to be used for hunting during regular firearms seasons with regular firearms tags, so, under those state laws, a crossbow is a "firearm" for the purposes of hunting.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with hunting regulations, either Federal or State.

Actually it does have lots to do with state hunting regs. For some states adopted the Federal definitions of "firearms" and "antique firearms" into their state law definitions. (Some were so lazy, in fact, that they simply say the federal definitions of ......, apply to state regulations: ..., ) . There is no restriction on using a 4-gauge, muzzleloader shotgun on deer in Maryland, for example. (To be honest as long as you shoot a single projectile, you could use a Rev War or Civil War Cannon.)

Why you'd want to shoot a whitetail with a 4-bore and ball the diameter of a 50 cent piece is beyond me, but it is legal, and owning a gun of that diameter that was a modern breech loader of course would need a federal permit.

For a long while there were "no modern gun shooting zones" here in the PRoM, but one could use a muzzleloader or bow to hunt inside those zones, as the zone prohibited "firearms" and any and every muzzleloader was defined as an "antique".

Any wonder why it's called the PRoM?

LD

 

[Sam1911]

owning a gun of that diameter that was a modern breech loader of course would need a federal permit.

Actually, no. It MAY need to be registered as a large-bore (over .50 cal) rifled destructive device, but may not if it is deemed "sporting." There is no federal permit for this, it's simply an NFA Title II regulated weapon like machine guns or silencers.

 

[Sam1911]

black powder cartridge punt guns were exactly the guns that nearly drove our waterfowl to extinction

AB, have you actually seen a cartridge-firing punt gun? All the ones I've seen in the waterfowl and Chesapeake Bay museums were muzzle-loading. As they were all 2", 3", 4" or so bores, I've never heard of a cartridge for one and never seen one that was breech-loaded.

I'm VERY curious! Market water-fowling is part of my family history and I'm always interesting in learning new things about it.

Thanks!

 

[scythefwd]

Sam1911 - there is a cartridge 4 bore out there. The guy using it gets the ammo made 1 at a time. I'm sure he could get a shot round made for it as well if he was willing to pay for it. I think he was saying each slug was somewhere in the area of 20 a round, for a 2k grain projectile.

 

[Sam1911]

there is a cartridge 4 bore out there

Oh yes! I've watched the videos of it. Quite a piece.

However, a 4-bore shoulder-fired gun isn't a "punt gun."

Punt guns were (are) 3"+ bore muzzle-loading shotgun "cannons" that were usually longer than the boat they were mounted in and were firmly affixed to the boat. They were loaded with rocks, nails, scrap metal and whatever else might make a hole and then the whole boat was aimed at a flock of ducks sitting on the water. A punt gun was often able to kill 25% or more of a flock at a time.

They were crude, at best. I've never seen one that had anything but the simplest lockwork. Certainly no locking breech.

 

[Cosmoline]

Armedbear is correct. These are two different laws with different purposes set by different agencies. "Shotgun larger than 10 gauge" in the waterfowl regs is not limited to NFA firearms. It would include *any* shotguns. Moreover, the purpose of the regulation would be undermined if an exception were permitted for muzzleloaders. Most of the punt guns were muzzleloaders.

OTOH, I think if you could get enough front stuffers together to lobby the feds you should be able to convince them to make an exception for using larger bore ML fowling pieces within the existing rules for bag limits and methods of shooting (eg no blasting whole flocks while they float around on the water!). The unregulated commercial waterfowl hunting that was (thankfully) banned by these regs has long, long since vanished. And compared with modern semiauto blasters, the hunter who chooses a big-bore single shot muzzleloding fowler for hunting is imposing a serious handicap on himself.

 

[ArmedBear]

I can't find any info on a cartridge-fired punt gun. Maybe there weren't any, but for some reason I thought there were. Surely cartridges are easier to handle in a boat than a 10 foot muzzleloader.

Of course, now these would be NFA-regulated, and there's little reason for anyone but a museum to bother with the expense or nuisance of owning one.

 

[Sam1911]

Surely cartridges are easier to handle in a boat than a 10 foot muzzleloader.

Sure. But punt guns were loaded once a day, on shore or at the dock, and fired once a day and the rest of the day was spent picking up the floaters and packing them to be shipped to the big restaurants and hotels in Baltimore and New York.

 

[ArmedBear]

Yeah, that's true. And the number produced was probably so low that they were one-off creations. It's easy to build an ugly smoothbore muzzleloader. So maybe that's all there ever were.

 

[Sam1911]

they were one-off creations

That's the impression I've always gotten. I don't even know that there were any regular "manufacturers" (I can't recall seeing a name on one) but there may have been.

This was the days of "sink boxes" where guys would float out into the great expanse of the bay -- way before dawn -- in a box that floated (more or less) below the water line, with about 2" of freeboard, disguise themself as a flock of ducks, and lie back waiting for the birds to come. Or, just as likely, to be run over by a steam boat, swamped by a random wave, or otherwise be inexplicably lost at sea.

Firing a muzzle-loading shot-cannon home-made out of a length of iron pipe was probably one of the safer things they did.

 

[Jim Watson]

The last time I researched and posted, I said:

There were certainly early muzzleloading punt guns, but they were eventually made with one or another breechloading action. Greener (1910) says that the usual punt gun of that day weighed about 100 pounds and was 1 1/2" bore firing a brass shell seven inches long, loaded with a pound and a half of shot. There were various mounting systems, but the later guns were basically swivel guns with some sort of recoil system so the shooter took no kick.

The most popular caliber today in England where such things are still legal is 1 1/8" firing less than a pound of shot. The maximum allowed is a 1 3/4" bore.

The gun is mounted in the bow of the camoflaged punt. It is an all-day job to maneuver the punt into line with a flock of ducks or geese without flushing them. You probably get only one shot that day, and that IF lucky. Take along a regular shotgun to finish off cripples.

One British source says that by the time you have your punt gun, a punt to mount it in, a 12 ga to collect cripples, the necessary permits to own and licenses to hunt, you have spent about 20,000 pounds.

 

[Sam1911]

Oh, that is COOL! Thanks Jim!

It absolutely boggles the mind that such things might still be legal to hunt with in England. Or that there are flocks of substantial size to use them on. While as I said, I had ancesters who made a living market gunning at one time, I still have to cringe to think of such things these days.

 

[Jim Watson]

Well, it's not like the old days, a survey found only 45 active punt gunners in England.

One regulation on punt guns there is that the punt must be manually propelled, no motor allowed.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Maybe in a very controlled basis a punt gun would help solve the problem of the Snow Geese?

OK maybe not

LD

 

[Sam1911]

One regulation on punt guns there is that the punt must be manually propelled, no motor allowed.

Kind of like the Skipjacks on the Chesapeake still allowed to "drudge arsters" -- but only under sail power.

 

[ArmedBear]

Maybe in a very controlled basis a punt gun would help solve the problem of the Snow Geese?

They'd be good on city lakes with huge year-round resident populations of Giant Canadas, too.

 

[Sam1911]

They'd be good on city lakes with huge year-round resident populations of Giant Canadas, too.

That could solve certain difficulties I've heard that golf courses have as well. Just float a punt out into the closest water hazard and rake the green!

I suppose you'd have to yell "FORE!"