Is it bad I don't think I'd like a progressive press?

[gifbohane]

I went from rcbs single stage to T-7 to Wilson chamber seating dies. I don't know if you consider that a side step or a step backwards. I fancy trying a 550, but I don't think it's going to be this massive leap forward. The limit of progressive for me is trimming and dealing with military crimped primer pockets.

My sentiments exactly. Where did you buy your Wilson Seating dies?

 

[AJC1]

My sentiments exactly. Where did you buy your Wilson Seating dies?

I order them direct from Wilson. I bought the 308 die, and my dad went nuts and got 6.5x55. 6mmbr, and 223. He also bought the vld stems.... it's how I load competition ammo.

Welcome to L.E. Wilson INC. - For Accurate Uniform Handloads

 

[LiveLife]

But the really interesting thing is, several respondents said they did not have, and would not have, a single stage press - and not one person tried to convince them otherwise.

Very interesting.

Because simply removing the index bar from Six Pack Pro and 2023 Pro 1000, dies in Breech Lock bushings and ram under station #1 (Where resizing force is applied) with free-floating shellplate dropping flat on solid carrier surface and index pin through shellplate ensuring absolute zero; you essentially have a single stage press with no tolerance movement of tool head/shellplate (Auto Breech Lock Pro works the same way) eliminating die/case misalignment issue.

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Single stage press not only ensures vertical zero tolerance movement but also ensures horizontal absolute die/case alignment. Replicate these two axis movements and you replicate single stage press precision/consistency with progressive press.​

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Most THR members already know this from various myth busting threads where reloading variables that affect OAL variance were tested with measurable/repeatable data; and case wall thickness/neck tension, bullet diameter, bullet nose/ogive consistency and bullet tilt during seating were primary variables identified to overshadow other variables resulting in finished and chambered OAL consistency (For me, "chambered OAL" consistency factoring bullet setback overshadows "finished OAL" consistency with no bullet setback preference for "match grade" ammunition) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

(There's good reason why Lee Precision decided to incorporate stepped "M" style "Square Starting" powder through expander into most of their die sets, eliminating bullet tilt during seating and bullet feeder die indexing ... OAL precision/consistency.)

And "single stage press" level of OAL precision/consistency myth busted using progressive press and myth confirmed by case wall thickness/headstamp even with unsorted range brass by resized length in progressive mode (Shellplate full) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...al-on-progressive-press.921633/#post-12684520

"Very interesting" indeed.

 

[JEBruns]

So for you guys loading bottleneck rifle rounds in progressive mode, how do you deal with need for case trimming after sizing?

I have separate heads for my 550 and RL1100 just for sizing. For trimming, I do that by hand. Measure all the cases, trim the long ones. Dillon has a electric trimmer you can mount on a press, but I've not bitten that bullet yet. And may not ever.

So my process is:
Anneal
Lube/Size/deprime
Wet tumble with pins and dry
Trim as needed
Hand prime for large rifle. Small rifle I load on the 1100 and let it prime them. I've found the 550 is not great at large rifle priming.
Final loading

Rifle brass is not a one shot operation like pistol is, at least not for me.

 

[westernrover]

An interesting thing happened here: a large percentage of the responses were progressive press users presenting arguments why the OP “needs” a progressive. It almost reads like an intervention.
But the really interesting thing is, several respondents said they did not have, and would not have, a single stage press - and not one person tried to convince them otherwise.
Very interesting.

I haven't tried to convince anyone to do anything, but in post #11 I did indicate that I have both and provided reasons why I prefer a single stage over a progressive. I noted that it is possible to produce precision cartridges on a quality progressive, but that it is not done progressively. To recap:

# progressive operation must be interrupted to clean the cases once they are sized with lube and de-primed.
# progressive operation is likely to need to be interrupted to trim the cases with precision.
# progressive operation is likely to need to be interrupted to chamfer and debur the case mouths.
# progressive operation may need to be interrupted to prime the cases.
# progressive operation may be interrupted once brass processing is complete to await powder and bullet selection.
# progressive operation will need to be interrupted to meter and trickle powder with precision.
# charged cases cannot be re-inserted via the case feeder but must be placed in the shell holder by hand.
# bullet seating on various progressive shell plate positions is not likely to be consistent.

I am not disputing that precision ammo can be made on a progressive. I believe it can. However, it is not done progressively, but using the press as a single-stage.

I do use a progressive, and the most useful feature is the case feeder. Whether I use a progressive or a single-stage, I process all my brass in advance and store it fully-prepped. I do this to thousands of cases at a time. When I finish brass processing is not necessarily when I want to make charging and seating choices and complete the cartridges. If I want to test several different powders, bullets, seating depths or whatever, I don't want to have to begin at step one with dirty fired cases.

I'll put it this way: for the price of a Dillon I can have many hundreds or even thousands more pieces of the best quality brass fully prepped and on-hand to be charged with a precision method not possible on a Dillon, and then seated with precision on a single-stage press. A person considering buying an expensive progressive press should consider the alternative of buying more brass instead of hoping to cycling the same few pieces more times. With more brass, press operations are required less often, and so is cleaning and everything else. People considering buying a progressive are often hoping to save their time. Buying more brass is a better time-saver. With enough processed brass on hand, a person will not need to sit at the press processing brass. I only process brass a few times a year. If I was finding myself having to do it monthly, I would buy more brass, not a progressive press. What about those few times a year I process many thousands of cases? I do use a progressive, but I noted already because of all the interruptions of progressive operations noted above, the case feeder is the most time-saving feature. Case feeders on single-stage presses are the solution. My Lee APP Deluxe does that. I will also note that feeding cases to and from a single stage can be very quick. I pick a case, pull a case from the shell-holder with the same fingers, insert the picked case and while I'm pulling the handle with the other hand, the first hand is placing the processed case and picking the next case. This cuts hand movements between the bin or block and the shell-holder in half, so that I'm pulling the handle about 60 times in a minute.

 

[gifbohane]

See westrover comments.

If I bought and loaded say new Starline brass, there would be a new Dillon 750 on my workbench.

 

[JEBruns]

I haven't tried to convince anyone to do anything, but in post #11 I did indicate that I have both and provided reasons why I prefer a single stage over a progressive. I noted that it is possible to produce precision cartridges on a quality progressive, but that it is not done progressively. To recap:

# progressive operation must be interrupted to clean the cases once they are sized with lube and de-primed.
# progressive operation is likely to need to be interrupted to trim the cases with precision.
# progressive operation is likely to need to be interrupted to chamfer and debur the case mouths.
# progressive operation may need to be interrupted to prime the cases.
# progressive operation may be interrupted once brass processing is complete to await powder and bullet selection.
# progressive operation will need to be interrupted to meter and trickle powder with precision.
# charged cases cannot be re-inserted via the case feeder but must be placed in the shell holder by hand.
# bullet seating on various progressive shell plate positions is not likely to be consistent.

I am not disputing that precision ammo can be made on a progressive. I believe it can. However, it is not done progressively, but using the press as a single-stage.

I do use a progressive, and the most useful feature is the case feeder. Whether I use a progressive or a single-stage, I process all my brass in advance and store it fully-prepped. I do this to thousands of cases at a time. When I finish brass processing is not necessarily when I want to make charging and seating choices and complete the cartridges. If I want to test several different powders, bullets, seating depths or whatever, I don't want to have to begin at step one with dirty fired cases.

I'll put it this way: for the price of a Dillon I can have many hundreds or even thousands more pieces of the best quality brass fully prepped and on-hand to be charged with a precision method not possible on a Dillon, and then seated with precision on a single-stage press. A person considering buying an expensive progressive press should consider the alternative of buying more brass instead of hoping to cycling the same few pieces more times. With more brass, press operations are required less often, and so is cleaning and everything else. People considering buying a progressive are often hoping to save their time. Buying more brass is a better time-saver. With enough processed brass on hand, a person will not need to sit at the press processing brass. I only process brass a few times a year. If I was finding myself having to do it monthly, I would buy more brass, not a progressive press. What about those few times a year I process many thousands of cases? I do use a progressive, but I noted already because of all the interruptions of progressive operations noted above, the case feeder is the most time-saving feature. Case feeders on single-stage presses are the solution. My Lee APP Deluxe does that. I will also note that feeding cases to and from a single stage can be very quick. I pick a case, pull a case from the shell-holder with the same fingers, insert the picked case and while I'm pulling the handle, the other hand is placing the processed case and picking the next case. This cuts hand movements between the bin or block and the shell-holder in half, so that I'm pulling the handle about 60 times in a minute.

Case feeders are great, no doubt. And I have a bullet feeder on my RL1100 for pistol and small rifle also. Can really churn out a lot of quality bullets.

My 550 is dedicated to my 6.5CM. It does not have the OAL problem that many progressives do, since the shell sits directly on the face of the ram. It is THE reason I bought it. It produces very consistent bullet seating. I don't have shell or bullet feeders on that.

Some of your points are not relevant. Like your charged case example. There would be no need to pull a charged case out of the loader, for example. It would just rotate to the next station and have the bullet seated.

 

[LiveLife]

550 ... does not have the OAL problem that many progressives do, since the shell sits directly on the face of the ram. It is THE reason I bought it. It produces very consistent bullet seating.

Especially when using stepped "M" style expander to prevent bullet tilt during seating.

 

[JEBruns]

Especially when using stepped "M" style expander to prevent bullet tilt during seating.

And the RCBS Match Master seating die, which aligns the bullet as you seat it.

 

[Otto]

So I don't see me having much of a use for a progressive press.

You would if you shot a substantial amount of ammo. My idea of substantial is >1500 per month.

I lusted after a Dillon for years and certainly I can afford one. I will not buy a Dillon and certainly not any other "progressive" press. My primary reason- fear of error and a kaboom.

I’ve found that the majority of KBs are on single stage presses. No fault of the press, just the person using it. Same thing with Titegroup. I believe auto-indexing progressives are inherently safer because the powder drops are sequentially automated. They also allow the use of a powder check die providing another layer of safety.

 

[BreechFace]

@westernrover

Reloading precision rifle one's process should be two toolheads, the following outline is how I would tackle it.

Off the press
Tumble/clean
Anneal
Lube

Toolhead #1
Deprime Die
Full-Length Sizing Die (if used for more than one firearm)
or
Shoulder bump setup the die
Mandrel Die for case neck

Off the press
Tumble/clean
Trim, chamfer, debur
Brass stored as "ready to load"

Toolhead #2
Prime on press
Powder through die with caliber specific powder funnel insert + funnel on top
Throw charges off press and pour into funnel
Seat bullet
Seating Die
Crimping Die (if desired)

Progressive press use for precision rifle isn't "clean" like loading for straight case handgun rounds. I don't know if I'll ever use my XL750 for "precision" rifle my T7 would be what I would use. But getting a good load with a wide node in a powder that throws decently for 223, 300 BLK, 7.62x39, 308win, 30-06 (garand) and I'll run with it on the progressive and eliminate throwing charges off the press with a funnel and use the powder drop.

 

[Boom Vang]

Handloading is a great hobby. I enjoy my Dillon 550 but it is not for everyone. To each his own.

 

[LiveLife]

I will not buy a Dillon and certainly not any other "progressive" press. My primary reason- fear of error and a kaboom.

auto-indexing progressives are inherently safer because the powder drops are sequentially automated

After being trained on Dillon 550 and Lee Pro 1000 for loading USPSA pistol match rounds, I chose Pro 1000 over manual index 550 due to auto index so as to not double charge a case (I forgot to advance shellplate several times during my training).

When I got Dillon 550 and 650 with case feeder (Among 20 or so press collection days), I designated 550 for loading rifle cartridges as it would be impossible to double charge (Along with using C-H 502 micrometer powder measure for more consistent powder charging).

 

[Walkalong]

I order them direct from Wilson. I bought the 308 die, and my dad went nuts and got 6.5x55. 6mmbr, and 223. He also bought the vld stems.... it's how I load competition ammo.

Welcome to L.E. Wilson INC. - For Accurate Uniform Handloads

They are so bad, I use them for match reloading as well.

Wilson sets in 6 Dasher, 6, & 6.5 Creedmoor, and a Wilson .308 hand seater. My old 6 PPC seater is a Niel Jones.

 

[The Glockodile]

Not meaning to hijack the thread…

I can imagine using a progressive for sizing rounds

a) coming from pistols

b) such as easy - to - size cases such as .223 Remington (even chambering a slightly oversized case in an AR bumps the shoulders back)

c) coming from the same rifle each and every time

But can you use them for say, fired Lake City machinegun .308 brass that you’re sizing down for your tight - chambered bolt gun?

Even on a single - stage press, sizing is inconsistent from case to case and one often relies on the “feel” or resistance of the stroke as a warning, requiring multiple strokes on top of using a good gauge for measuring each and every case…

 

[SingleActionAndrew]

I thought I was cooler than progressives, until I got my tricked out Dillon 750. T7 is only for special projects now

 

[Lt Shaffer]

I've been using a Lee classic turret press for the last 3.5 years. I have been lusting after moving up to a 6000 because of the affordability but haven't been able to convince myself to buy one. I'm not really a volume reloader so the LCT isn't killing me. For the last year or two, given the cost deltas between commercial ammo and reloading supplies, I have just been buying 9mm when I find a reasonable deal and then reloading 38/357/40/45 because there's much more to be saved with those.

One thing I like about the LCT is the ease of changing calibers because I just swap out the entire turret. The dies are already adjusted so it's very fast and the turrets are cheap so it's painless to have several turrets configured and sitting on the shelf.

But I still think about the 6000 often so I'll just wait here while you enablers encourage me to move up....

 

[Necessary_Nutrient]

I’ve reloaded enough 9mm on a single stage press to have committed to factory 9mm once my bullets run out

The rest of it I’ll keep plugging away, a big rifle project like a batch of 600 still takes a while, especially if I have to trim but how much is a big press setup going to help that, really? My equipment costs have also been amortized long ago so I’m hesitant to dig deeper and highly value the simplicity and learned processes I have going

 

[allisd17]

Why do you reload? Some load for volume, some for accuracy, some for hobby, etc... There are a hundred different reasons and not all of them require a turret or progressive.

I've been loading for a few decades and enjoy my single stage Lee Challenger press. Only load for my enjoyment, no one elses.

Know your own goals, choose your own path...

Right on. I think you best answered the OP's question.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I been kicking the idea about going progressive. If i do it's going to be a Hornady. I use the Lyman brass smith 8's for rifle. But load it in single stage mode. My Lee classic cast turret i like for handgun. I advance it by hand. I no longer use Lee powder drops. To many issues. I use my RCBS Uni-flo.

 

[AJC1]

They are so bad, I use them for match reloading as well.

Wilson sets in 6 Dasher, 6, & 6.5 Creedmoor, and a Wilson .308 hand seater. My old 6 PPC seater is a Niel Jones.

Never seen a Neil Jones. Looks like you adjust them differently. I have one micrometer Wilson but a caliper and a screw driver works on the standard dies just as good imo.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I tumble my brass, then de-prime and re-size on a basic Lee press.
Then I check the brass for length on one of my home-made length gauges, trim and shape the case mouth if necessary, check for flaws and rack that brass..
Once I have all of that bunch of brass processed I use a hand-held primer tool to prime them all.
Then I use that same Lee press to size the brass and then use another basic Lee press that I have modified to hold a Lee powder measure to bell the mouth and charge it with powder.
Finally, I use one more basic Lee press to insert the bullet and crimp if desired.
This allows me to inspect each round at each step of creation.
I've never had a squib or overcharge in the last fifty years.
It's very zen... .

 

[maxxhavoc]

I load all pistol ammo on the progressive just due to the volume. Yes, it is faster, but the main reason for me is Repetitive Strain Injuries. With a turret, the same operations take 4 separate handle pulls as 1 on the progressive. I suffer from many fine such instances of this, and reloading will trigger it.

It wasn't a problem in my 20's and 30's but it is now.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

You would if you shot a substantial amount of ammo. My idea of substantial is >1500 per month.

But according to multiple threads and substantiated by the most knowledgeable people, if you shoot 9mm, 5.56mm or 7.62mm in those volumes it isn’t worth reloading. You save a lot of time and money buying cases of blasting ammo - which also means you can devote the reloading time to practice.

 

[PWC]

No it is not bad...Targa answered your question in post #2..."high volume" is the need for progressive press.