Is it necessary to flare a 1911's ejection port for reliability?

[Dave Sample]

Why do you think that this guide rod head is beveled like this? The flange goes up againt the lower lugs at the bottom of the barrel. This is cut away for one reason and one reason only. It is to keep the link OFF of the guide rod end.



Note the postion of the guide rod end when it is OFF the gun. It is exactly the same as when it is ON the gun.



This is the rerverse plug where the frame hits after it hits the shock buff.



Look through the hole in the link where the slide stop pin goes through and it is easy to see that those two little marks are exactly dead center on that pin. Those marks are on almost every barrel that links up tight on the slide stop pin resting on the lower lugs , and that is where that pin stops the slide at lock up. We DO NOT Want the link to touch there, but sometimes it does. In this case, it is hitting the link at the bottom and allowing these marks to be made visible to the camera. These marks were on the Norinco barrel and evey other barrel I have in the shop at this time that has been fired some. When the gun fires, the slide goes back about 1/4 of an inch and then the link pulls the barrel down and out of the way so we can have recoil and then feeding and chambering the next round. It slams forward and the end of the guide rod where the Shok-buff is slams against the rear of the reverse plug, and the plug hits the steel at the back of the plug tunnel. The link does not go up in smoke when this happens. It stays right there against the lower lugs of the barrel and the link moves backward with pressure on the guide rod. That is why it is round in that area. I am giving up trying to explain this to all of you becuase it is obvious that I am not able to convey to you what is going on. There is always pressure on that guide rod from the recoil spring on the lower lugs and the slide stop pin whatever postion it is in ,if the gun is assembled. The link is allowing the pin to make the marks as it travels back into the lugs where it holds everything in place. "De shin bone connects to the knee bone , and de knee bone connects to the leg bone, and de"...........

 

[1911Tuner]

*Sigh*

Dave...It ain't gonna happen. Read this carefully and think about it. The end of that rod ain't pushin' on the link when the slide is on the gun. There HAS to be a little clearance between'em, or the link CAN NOT PIVOT AT ALL.

When the link is in the battery position, it's almost one degree PAST vertical
in a correctly fitted lower lug. If the end of the guide rod is pushing on the link hard enough to force the slidestop pin into the lug feet, it has to move an ADDITIONAL amount to take up the clearance between the link hole and the pin diameter. Average .003 inch. That means that the rod would apply positive tension against the link for more than one degree of arc.

If the gun fires in this condition of static lock, the barrel would have to move backward far enough to pivot the link through that arc.
After the link reaches vertical...against the increasing tension on the guide rod...the barrel is trying to move further backward, which is forcing the link to swing even further forward of vertical...still fighting the ever-increasing
tension imposed on the guide ro by the recoil spring. If the link can't swing forward, the barrel can't move backward and unlock. If the barrel can't unlock from the slide, everything comes to a dead stop.

The in-battery clearance HAS to be there.

There has to be enough clearance between the end of the guide rod and the link to allow the link to move at the instant that the gun fires...because
the barrel and slide start to move backward in recoil at the instant of bullet movement. Once the barrel starts its rearward trip, it creates more clearance between the end of the rod and the link, and the link will continue its arc until the barrel can go no further and it swings downward.

The end of the rod ain't pushin' on the link. It can't even touch it. If it did, the gun wouldn't function. It would be in a condition of static lock. I'd bet
even money that you couldn't even get the gun together with positive force on the link through the guide rod.

 

[Dave Sample]

I told you that I have given up on this one. The implication that I do not know how my guns work is silly.

 

[Wichaka]

Cap'n Bling;
I told you that I have given up on this one. The implication that I do not know how my guns work is silly.

Silly wasn't the adjective I was thinking of...........sad is more like it.

Take the bare frame.......put the barrel in the bed.......add the slide stop pin thru the link.........now add the guide rod head.........where/what does it go/fit against?

I rest my case. Thank you Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, you are all now dismissed.

 

[Jammer Six]

I told you that I have given up on this one. The implication that I do not know how my guns work is silly.

I'm curious why you're giving up, Dave.

This thread has been viewed over a thousand times.

It's a great chance for you to demonstrate the value of your classes, to a lot of people, as well as a great chance to demonstrate your ability to teach.

I, for one, am very interested in knowing how your get the head of the guide rod past the ledge in the frame that it rides on in a standard milspec, and why you'd want to do so.

What do you gain by putting in touch with the link? Why do you put it in touch with the link?

 

[1911Tuner]

No Flames

This has been a lively and interesting thread. It has also been educational,
but it seems to have drawn some emotional responses, and that's not what it was all about. Mr. Sample has his way of doing things and we have ours.
We must learn to discuss these things in a polite and civil manner in keeping with The High Road's policy.

Wichaka, you have lost patience, and I understand...but you're getting very close to the line. Please keep your comments on the high road. You're a
good guy and a knwledgeable armorer, and we'd like to keep you here to pick your brain.
___________________

To answer Jammer's question:

The Commander and Officer's Model pistols have reduced slide travel, which requires shortened spring tunnels and frame rails as compared to 5-inch guns. This design change puts the guide rod closer to the lower lug and link,
and this is the reason for that angle on the guide rod flange. It provides extra clearance for the top of the link when the barrel is in battery.
It does NOT provide clearance for the link to pivot forward during barrel unlock. This design change in tunnel length and in the forward section of the lower lug allows for very little clearance between the guide rod and link, but the clearance must be there to prevent crashing when the link starts to pivot forward through its arc. Mr. Sample is mistaken in his assumption that it forces the link backward. It's just that simple. We all make mistakes.

The front of the lower lug is vertical rather than angled, as in the 5-inch guns.
When the recoil system is in the slide, it will allow the flange to contact the front of the lug, but when the slide is on the frame, the abutment in the recoil spring tunnel holds it forward to provide the necessary clearance.
___________________

Thank you all for your cooperation and support.

Tuner

 

[Old Fuff]

This thread has been and is still one of substantial value. It is clear from the many threads and posts presented on The High Road, as well as other forums on the Internet; that there is great interest in how and why the 1911 style pistol works the way it does, and what corrective steps one should take to correct some condition when it doesn’t work the way it should.

It is inevitable that different positions will be presented by various individuals - some claiming to have extensive experience and knowledge - then those put forward by others. That is exactly what has happened in this instance.

Fortunately in this case anyone with access to a 1911 style pistol can make they’re own determination of the truth in a manner that requires no particular skill or expertise.

The barrel (with attached link), recoil spring guide (with its attached spring) and the slide stop can be placed in they’re respective positions in the frame while the slide is removed. Then the question of whether the link can or does ever touch the recoil spring guide when the pistol is assembled can be resolved by a simple visual inspection.

Following this observation anyone can decide for themselves who is creditable, and who isn’t. Thereafter they will be able to make an informed judgment as to who is believable, and who isn’t.

Others, especially those who are interested in the subject but don’t have access to a pistol can increase their knowledge by purchasing a book; “The Colt .45 Automatic - A Shop Manual†by Jerry Kuhnhausen. (which is available from a number of sources including Brownells at www.brownells.com and the publisher at www.gunbooks.com). This book is extensively illustrated, and the text is written with beginners and ordinary gun owners - as well as gunsmiths - in mind.

 

[1911Tuner]

Credible Witness

Fuff...I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm afraid that this ain't gonna be resolved until somebody with a lathe and a talent for fabrication decides to
make a guide rod that'll push on the link. If they manage to get the gun together and loaded...which is doubtful...and fire it, the reality of the matter will be settled when the gun crashes.

This is the sort of thing that I try to prevent, since the mission of the forum is to provide good information. Good information that will prevent the readers from doing something that could damage their guns or get someone hurt...
but I digress. We can only point them in the right direction and hope that logic will give them pause in order to study the matter carefully before proceeding. At times...it seems to be akin to plowing in a lake.

 

[Wichaka]

I appologize to Dave Sample, THR members & Staff for my last post...........it should have been stated a bit different.

Tuner;
This is the sort of thing that I try to prevent, since the mission of the forum is to provide good information. Good information that will prevent the readers from doing something that could damage their guns or get someone hurt...
but I digress. We can only point them in the right direction and hope that logic will give them pause in order to study the matter carefully before proceeding. At times...it seems to be akin to plowing in a lake.

If some remember, this very point that Tuner makes, came up awhile ago in a couple of threads I started. The one I speak of was about info. being put on THR, and the relability..........or liability of it.

My last post was essentially the same as Fuff's.........in that I gave the illustration of putting the gun together without the slide to see where everything fit..........then everyone can draw the conclusion from there.

Have a happy

 

[1911Tuner]

Good Deal

Ahhhh..No harm, no foul mah fren. Just tryin' to keep things from goin' down in flames. I feel your pain and frustration, though...Ah rilly dew.

In the interest of science, I'll make a standing offer to anyone keepin' up with this thread. Got a little time on my hands for the next day or two.

I'll go crank up my handy dandy lathe and make a guide rod that will do exactly what has been described here. i.e. sit deep enough in the well to
exert sufficient pressure on the barrel link to force the slidestop pin into the lug feet...and send it free of charge. Consider it a Christmas gift from the
Tunerfish. All I need to know is whether it will be installed in a 5-inch gun, a Commander, or an Officer's Model.

When you get it, install it in your pistol and go shoot it. Depending on how the tolerances stack up in your particular gun, it may take 8 or 10 rounds to see the reality...or it may only require one. I don't advise that it be installed in a gun that you like.

Give me the word, the specs, and the address and it's out the door next day.

Standin' by...

 

[Dave Sample]

OK. The EAGLE 2 is imaginary and it never went to the Shot Show years ago and the pictures of the link touching the end of the guide rod were rigged up in Paint Shop Pro. This gun simply is a figment of my imagination. I did it just to fool you and I must say I am sorry for that. For those of you who have shot it, it was just a dream, and it wasn't real. End of story.

 

[1911Tuner]

Touchy Touchy Guide Rod

Now Dave...Don't go gittin' yer knickers in a knot..not when we're so close to
enlightenment.

I'll admit that it might be brushin' up against it...but it ain't pushin' on the link hard enough to force that pin back into the feet like you said.

Got the lathe all set up and rarin' to go...Gimme the Word. Gimme the model...and it's out the door. Gonna make one and everybody can pass it around.

Standin' by...

 

[Dave Sample]

The Picture of the Guide Rod Head that I put up is so that the rod goes up against the lower lugs without contacting the guide rod head and the Link. No one has commented on that picture and that is sad. I have been doing these this way for years and Chip is the only one that I know of that has caught on. We talked about this years ago at The Shot Show when I told him he had the best disconnector going. That is a one piece guide rod that we use in the Online 1911 Class. I spend a lot of time with him at every Show I go to because he will listen, and will change things. He is not as arrogant as some of the others there selling parts that are the wrong dimensions. They do not change them because you guys keep buying them so they sell all they want and do not care. These is one other factor: He likes me!

 

[Old Fuff]

>> The Picture of the Guide Rod Head that I put up is so that the rod goes up against the lower lugs without contacting the guide rod head and the Link. <<

When you say that "the rod" (I presume that you mean the rod head, as this should be obvious) goes up against the lower lugs WITHOUT CONTACTING THE GUIDE ROD HEAD AND THE LINK.

Ya need to play that one again. I think what you met to say was that "the head of the guide rod goes up against the barrel lug and doesn't touch the link because there is a clearance slot cut in the guide rod's head."

While you're at it specify which post has this particular picture, as you've posted several different ones.

If you are refering to the picture in post #62 you will find comments in posts #66, #68, #71 and #73.

 

[1911Tuner]

Fire in the Hole!

Weeeeeeeee...might...oughtaclosethisone before it reaches critical mass again.

Fuff...Go crawl back in your cave and don't come out again 'til Christmas
or I'll tell Dave where ya are.

Gentlemen...Time!