Is it possible to pack a CCW that could defeat a body armor wearing assailant?

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I've yet to hear any actual proof that he was wearing anything other than scary-looking black nylon stuff. Not saying he wasn't wearing any body armor, I'm just saying that I haven't heard that stated as fact yet.
 
While the threat is concentrating on everyone retreating,advance as close as possible using cover available and take your best shot at what is exposed.
 
The testing done with a vest using milk jugs as backing is not a very valid test. Clay, ballistics gel or some such substance gives the most accurate results. Even wet phone books work well. People shot while wearing body armor do not necessarily go down. While making an arrest I was shot by a suspect with a .32 acp pistol with the muzzle pressed against me. I didn't realize I had been shot until later. I thought he had punched me really hard in the stomach. He lost the gun during the ensuing fight. The round did not penetrate my armor but did crack two ribs and caused a 6" bruise. While hurt I was still able to function. Repeated hits with a large caliber handgun to a torso covered with body armor might take a suspect down but maybe not.
 
If the rounds had this much kinetic energy, they would also knock down the person shooting them. This is a myth.
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True, but I thought bullets still have the KE of a fastball, not something you'd automatically shrug off, even with armor to spread the blow. And even with a (ostensibly) bullet-proof helmet, you'd still suffer either a neck injury, or a severely "rung bell". The armor may save your life (and even internal organs), but physics is still physics, and bullets do carry a lot of juice.

The most novel body-armor penetration idea I've heard of were those ring-airfoil bullets they were talking about on a forum here some weeks back. A hard (bronze, I believe, so still AP) ring with a sharp forward edge, and a plastic plug/sabot to keep the powder gasses in check while it's still in the barrel. You get a really fast round with a tiny front surface area (penetration) that will tumble the instant it hits anything, and tumble past a couple dozen yards. You get the benefit of a 5.7's penetration, a large hole "cookie-cut" through your bad guy (unlike the 5.7), and the limited range of a shotgun (so no rounds traveling into the next county at full-tilt). Sounded like a really great setup for self-defense guns, but sadly not legal in the USA because of the alloys involved. (since FNH made Aluminum armor piercers for the 5.7, I wonder if the same could be done for these?)

TCB
 
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General Geoff said:
If the rounds had this much kinetic energy, they would also knock down the person shooting them. This is a myth.

As for pistol rounds that can penetrate level IIIA armor, sure. The faster and smaller diameter the round, the better. 7.62 Tokarev and 5.7x28mm are both very good soft armor penetrators when loaded with the right ammo.
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Not so. When I am shooting a firearm a few things are going on. First, my entire body is behind the gun with an opposing force (to the coming blast) focused on my hands. Even then the muzzle flip can be violent. Just try to "overpower" the muzzle flip with muscle and see what happens. Just try to get all your body weight focused on the area you're going to be hit so God forbid, you're not off balance.

Second, when the round is fired, all the gunpowder is not burned instantaneously nor is the bullet immediately up to speed. It takes time to accelerate. On the other hand when that bullet hits someone in the chest, if there is no penetration due to armor then the deceleration force is nearly instantaneous and the resultant force is huge.

Nice try but no.
 
Well, the way I understand it, the most straightforward solution is illegal.. I think.
Some high velocity number of a homogenous material such as bronze would probably do the trick. Or you could just hit his button nose with whatever, perhaps.. there's shields and stuff but anyway. A penetrating round needs to be pointy, hard and fast. Stable is good too.
 
Ruger Blackhawk .30 caliber. It's also extremely accurate. Use magnetic bullets pulled from Communist 7.62x25 ammo, and reload them in .30 Carbine for a nice jump in muzzle velocity.

Even that might not do it, and I can't think of a less practical CCW handgun.
 
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Not so. When I am shooting a firearm a few things are going on. First, my entire body is behind the gun with an opposing force (to the coming blast) focused on my hands. Even then the muzzle flip can be violent. Just try to "overpower" the muzzle flip with muscle and see what happens. Just try to get all your body weight focused on the area you're going to be hit so God forbid, you're not off balance.
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I don't know what you're trying to get at, here. Being hit in the gut with a pistol round (or even most rifle rounds) that does not penetrate your body armor, will NOT knock you down, unless you are precariously balanced already. The muzzle flip of a pistol CAN be overcome quite easily, by simply attaching a buttstock to it and holding it against your shoulder, thereby extending a larger part of your body mass to resist the recoil (note that this constitutes a short barreled rifle and requires an NFA tax stamp!). Indeed, firing a rifle from the shoulder causes more unbalancing than being hit by the same round in most of the torso, because the shoulder is higher up on your body and has more leverage in terms of toppling a standing person.

Second, when the round is fired, all the gunpowder is not burned instantaneously nor is the bullet immediately up to speed. It takes time to accelerate. On the other hand when that bullet hits someone in the chest, if there is no penetration due to armor then the deceleration force is nearly instantaneous and the resultant force is huge.
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The force remains the same regardless of the rate of deceleration. You could wear a plate of steel armor in front of you (rendering instant deceleration), and the round would still not knock you down upon impact.

Nice try but no.
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The laws of physics disagree with you. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. It doesn't matter what caliber or what type of gun you're firing from (excluding mounted weaponry, I'm talking hand held); if it doesn't threaten to knock you down while firing, it will not knock down a target of near equal mass. Knock the wind out of you? Sure. Crack or even break a rib? Sure. Cause internal bleeding? Maybe. But it won't knock you down from inertia alone. It could very well cause enough physical pain for the target to collapse and let gravity take him down, but rest assured it is not the bullet itself.
 
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Head shots, neck shots...either will stop anybody literally dead in their tracks.

Then there's hands and feet...a hit in the hands will make pulling the trigger or reloading quite difficult and a hit to the feet will pretty much make them a stationary target.

Yes...they're small targets compared to center mass...but if you're faced with an opponent wearing armor at least TRYING to hit them somewhere that is unprotected is better than wasting all your ammo on the armor.

Never stop thinking...yes, things happen fast...but you still gotta think about whats happening...if you don't think, you die...if you think too long...you still die. If a bad guy absorbs 2-3 rounds without dropping...its time to aim somewhere else, and quickly.

Most people practice by shooting at big paper targets between 7 and 15 yards...and that is NOT wasted time...but one should be prepared for the unexpected...practice the head shots too, at least out to 25 yards, and from the draw (holstered weapon)...I know most ranges don't allow this, find somewhere to do it...and don't shoot yourself in the arse, thigh, or foot...first get the draw and aim down pat...the add ammo.

Sure...you'll miss some, I've been doing it for years and I still miss some too...thats not the point though...the point is having the skill and mindset to at least get 2-3 out of 6 rounds on target. Its not rocket science...it just takes practice.

To my knowledge there are no bulletproof helmets, scarfs, or shoes.

In summary...if you're faced with a guy in body armor who has you outgunned...you're probably gonna lose! But if you're cornered...you might as well fight back with all you've got...and don't waste ammo on the armor.

In answer the OP's question...even a lil 22 Beretta can do it...you just gotta hit them where they're NOT armored....I have seen that very pistol drop a 240 pound man with a neck shot....dead as a hammer. He wasn't wearing a vest, but even if he had been...it wouldn't have mattered. The man I speak of was a very good friend of mine...
 
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A sufficiently fast bullet will defeat IIIa body armor (just about anything going north of 1400 fps). So a hot 357 mag, 44 mag, 10mm, 7.62x25, maybe even a 357Sig, hot 38 Super or the new 9mm major rounds would be capable of defeating IIIa soft body armor.

Doing a little research I find out that bullets that don't "defeat" level IIIa are still allowed to cause deflection of the body behind the armor by up to 44mm (ouch), and that most soft body armor is not stab resistant.

As I commented in another thread (now locked), there are certain parts of the human body more sensitive to impact, such as eyes, nose, mouth, temple, neck, knees, groin, and certain nerve clusters. So even if the bullet does not penetrate, some targets will still stop the aggressor.
 
Nuclear said:
A sufficiently fast bullet will defeat IIIa body armor (just about anything going north of 1400 fps). So a hot 357 mag, 44 mag, 10mm, 7.62x25, maybe even a 357Sig, hot 38 Super or the new 9mm major rounds would be capable of defeating IIIa soft body armor.

Doing a little research I find out that bullets that don't "defeat" level IIIa are still allowed to cause deflection of the body behind the armor by up to 44mm (ouch), and that most soft body armor is not stab resistant.

As I commented in another thread (now locked), there are certain parts of the human body more sensitive to impact, such as eyes, nose, mouth, temple, neck, knees, groin, and certain nerve clusters. So even if the bullet does not penetrate, some targets will still stop the aggressor.
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Yeah, a good knife will do the job.
 
Habeed said:
Out of curiosity, does anything that fits into the "pistol" category of weapons have the power to go through, say, a level IIIA ballistic vest?
I picked level IIIA because I don't know what the Colorado joker was wearing, but the next level up (threat level III) vests can stop 7.62 rifle rounds, and I know armor that can do that is very heavy and bulky. Also, you aren't getting that kind of power in a pistol. News reports say he was mostly shooting at targets leaving the theater, and he would stop firing to reload, so there WERE chances to take him out.

The other way is AP ammunition. Now, I'm merely curious if such ammo exists, it doesn't matter if it is civilian available or not. I just wonder if it is even technically possible. To go through armor, the ammo would need a tungsten sabot in the core, and it would need to be a VERY hot load, with lots of propellant to get the velocity up. Can any firearm that is remotely compact fire a round with enough power to do the job?

Obviously, if you "conceal" one of these, it doesn't matter what kind of armor the guy was wearing : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82

But somehow I think even the pimply faced kids at the ticket counter would spot that under your clothes...
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I would "melt into the crowd" and make quick exit if the guy had body armor and an assault rifle. One would have to be dumber then sack of potatoes to exchange fire with loco like that using just a handgun.
 
Skribs said:
Actually the bank robbery is why they started issuing carbines, not semi-auto pistols.

Your average LEO probably goes to the range once a year to qualify and is probably less likely to get a headshot than your average trained CCWer.
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Possibly, but here we qualify 4 times per year and specialized units like SWAT do monthly. Officers are encouraged to practice as often as they wish, and have access to free ammo for every gun they qualify with. Many Officers also compete is SASS/NCOWS, IDPA, or IPSA.

As to your last statement, if you had said the "average CCWer on this forum", I would agree with you, but the average citizen CCWer that I encounter will shoot maybe once or twice a year.......and none of their training is under stress or adverse conditions.;)

LD
 
Habeed said:
Out of curiosity, does anything that fits into the "pistol" category of weapons have the power to go through, say, a level IIIA ballistic vest?
I picked level IIIA because I don't know what the Colorado joker was wearing, but the next level up (threat level III) vests can stop 7.62 rifle rounds, and I know armor that can do that is very heavy and bulky. Also, you aren't getting that kind of power in a pistol. News reports say he was mostly shooting at targets leaving the theater, and he would stop firing to reload, so there WERE chances to take him out.

The other way is AP ammunition. Now, I'm merely curious if such ammo exists, it doesn't matter if it is civilian available or not. I just wonder if it is even technically possible. To go through armor, the ammo would need a tungsten sabot in the core, and it would need to be a VERY hot load, with lots of propellant to get the velocity up. Can any firearm that is remotely compact fire a round with enough power to do the job?

Obviously, if you "conceal" one of these, it doesn't matter what kind of armor the guy was wearing : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82

But somehow I think even the pimply faced kids at the ticket counter would spot that under your clothes...
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This and similar questions are popping up on gun forums everywhere, including LEO forums. Theoretically, small hyper fast rounds like the .22 magnum will penetrate, but not on a consistent basis. Keeping in mind with this scenario that the attacker was dressed in black in a dark theater, and tear gas had been deployed while hundreds were running for their life, any shot at all would be risky. The sure thing would have been a knife attack from the rear, with strikes to the neck, back and chest.

LD
 
To answer the OPs question, a IIIA Soft Body Armor Set will stop, per NIJ standards, up to a .44 Magnum 240 Lead SWC/GC at 1400 fps. It is possible to CCW (In the wintertime anyway) a 10MM with full power 180 grain or 200 grain FMJs or big revolvers with FMJ/TMJ type bullets. Also, keep in mind that even though the IIIA Body Armor will stop it, you can still experience broken ribs, internal bleeding, and extreme blunt force trauma under the vest where the bullet impacted. In Texas and most other states it is against the law for citizens to possess armor piercing ammunition designed specifically for handguns.

As I mentioned in another thread right before it got closed :), a round right through the nose will change a person's channel/pull their cord quick. Learning the vital/threat stopping areas around where the typical body armor is can pay big dividends in a gunfight if you shoot somebody center mass and nothing happens.

Hopefully more people will practice head shots and pelvic shots during their range time. A head shot in the right place is lights out immediately, and a pelvic shot will drastically reduce the amount of fight a person has in them, and they can't chase after you or do much else with their legs afterwards.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
Except in this case, it appears that he specifically used the gas as a diversion to funnel everyone towards an exit to concentrate them and make them easier to hit. This was NOT the safer play in this case.

We don't yet know what kind of armor he was using. If he had trauma plates, this is a whole different story. I think that I would know right away if I saw a guy wearing full armor, because I have done it myself. Then I would know that COM shots are much less likely to be effective. I think the most effective play against this guy would have been to hit the floor, play dead, draw, and wait for a shot. It is entirely possible that in the confusion, pretty much all of us would have been trying to get out with the rest of the crowd, because we would have seen the gas, figured it was someone playing a prank, and tried to get out.
 
I have read he was wearing some kind of nylon tactical vest, not body armor or even bulletproof. Like load bearing gear or vest with pockets for magazines, compass, flashlight, etc.

Even so, a bullet stopped by a typical "bulletproof" vest produces blunt action trauma: bruised or cracked ribs. People shot wearing bulletproof vests have gone down because they had the breath knocked out of them.

As I heard, the guy walked out on the "stage" or narrow podium in front of the screen and opened fire with a shotgun, switching to rifle. I don't know at what point he got down on the audience level, but for a while he was up in front of an illuminated screen. It would have taken a bit to get over the initial shock and realize what was happening, but how hard could a return shot have been if he was standing on a raised area in front of the screen?

Of course, if someone had been armed and returned fire, they would have been banned from that theater chain for life.
 
Carl, so far I've seen proof that he had the tac vest, haven't seen proof one way or another as to whether he actually had armor.
 
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