Is it really us, or who we're told we are?

[nachosgrande]

I understand this requires a very complex answer to a simple question, but let's take a trip back in time. Open carry and concealed carry permits do not, for the most part, allow you to take your weapon into most alcohol serving restaurants. I have to be honest, I agree with this (despite the Susanna Gratia-Hupp situation) because most of the country is very ignorant of gun safety and basic human courtesy. However, our forefathers responsibly did it. So, where did we go wrong? Is it because we aren't properly trained in handling firearms at an early age, or are we more savage than our forefathers? During the drafting of our constitution, up until the 20th century, we were capable of carrying firearms, under the influence of alcohol, and almost nothing bad ever happened (the "wild" west was not what TV and movies describe it as being). My question is, are we, as current Americans, not responsible enough to maintain the rights set out in the Constitution, or are we savages because our government limits our rights and, by doing so, psychologically tells us we are? Would mandatory gun and confidence training at an early age return us to a more civil age? I gotta tell you, I really ask quite a bit of this forum in my posts, but you always seem to come through.

 

[armoredman]

Good question! I'd say because we've been nannied down over the years to be told we cannot ever be responsable for what we do.

 

[ByAnyMeans]

I find no problem with people taking their firearms into establishments that serve alcohol. I believe that those taking responsibility for their safety are aware enough of proper safety in these situations. You are allowed to carry your firearm into bars in PA for a long time and their has been no problems with this.

I agree the lack of firearm training and of overall common sense and value for life leads to many killings and other horrible crimes including shootings at bars but not by CCW holders.

I think that their are many that are to foolish for their rights but they still get them. The foolishness however comes from how our government treats it's citizens. I forget who says it but theirs a quote form one of our founding fathers that basically goes something like "protecting a man from his folly's leaves a world of fools". We know have a world of fools.

 

[Sinixstar]

I think it's more because we've become a culture of excess - in which getting completely black-out style obliterated and doing something stupid has not only become common, it's become a celebrated part of society.
It used to be if you were "that guy" - you were the town drunk degenerate who would eventually get 86'd all over town. Now days you're the life of the party.
In that climate - it does become dangerous - not only because those who are carrying might be "that guy" - and doing something stupid might involve a gun, but I think even more importantly because people in that state tend to cause some trouble in which the CCW might feel obligated to step in, and create a potentially deadly situation.

Unfortunately, that's the society we live in today. Getting drunk and flashing your junk or wrecking your car makes you "cool". Just look at the celebrity tabloids.

 

[John Wayne]

I believe it all comes down to a lack of individual responsibility and lack of common sense.

From the media, music, and Hollywood, we are taught that normal, law-abiding citizens are corrupted and commit crimes because they have access to firearms. We are also taught that the individual is not to blame, rather the inanimate object that "influences" him or her.

Because of our country's minimum drinking age, alcohol is mystefied. Many in European countries begin drinking in their early childhood years, yet you don't see binge drinking studies on German teenagers.

 

[Golden Hound]

I actually heard from someone who lived in one of those European countries with a low drinking age (either Germany or the UK) that they actually have huge problems with binge drinking over there and that there are drunken teenagers all over the place causing trouble, committing acts of vandalism and petty crime, etc etc...he said this specifically to respond to all the claims that it's much better "over there" because of the lower drinking age.

I will say that I think the drinking age should be 18 in America. Let's face it, people drink in high school and in college (most people do more drinking than studying in college.) It's stupid to act like it should be a crime and punish them for it. Nobody actually obeys the law, because it's a stupid law to begin with, so it should be done away with. However I think that to get into a BAR you should have to be 21. Because I don't want to go to a bar and have to see high school kids there.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

John Wayne nailed it with his first sentence...

 

[GregGry]

I think it has more to do with the fact that people aren't given the chance to prove responsibility. Just like the drinking age being 21 in the USA and not 18 or lower. The irresponsible people will drink regardless of the laws, just like they will carry a gun on their person regardless of the laws. Making something like drinking at 18 or carrying firearms into bars legal is only going to change what responsible people will do.

 

[Brian Dale]

Vicious cycle.

 

[withdrawn34]

I will say that I think the drinking age should be 18 in America. Let's face it, people drink in high school and in college (most people do more drinking than studying in college.) It's stupid to act like it should be a crime and punish them for it. Nobody actually obeys the law, because it's a stupid law to begin with, so it should be done away with. However I think that to get into a BAR you should have to be 21. Because I don't want to go to a bar and have to see high school kids there.

Indeed. It doesn't make sense that you can go to war and die, buy cigarettes, buy and act in porn, and be charged as an adult in a crime; however, you cannot buy a beer! It doesn't make any sense and really wastes a LOT of police man hours and money on yet another useless law.

I go to college. I am not going to sit here and pretend that anyone follows the age limit. I am going to sit here and say its a big waste. There was even an undercover officer killed by another officer here outside one of my college football games due to a kind of weird sequence of events that was due simply to attempting to enforce the age limit. Sad all around.

I think a law like that shouldn't apply to restaurants where alcohol is also served, but not the main point. Luckily in Florida, as long as you stay out of the bar area, you are ok.

To me, if you are going out to drink (responsibly), you should leave the gun at home and go with a friend who is carrying. To me, its similar to a car; if you know you're going to drink, you should have a buddy who drives or give you keys to the barman until you sober up. A car can certainly be very deadly due to negligence just like a negligently handled firearm. It's really just an issue of personal responbility.

 

[Kind of Blued]

I truly believe an armed society is a polite society, regardless of blood alcohol content. Even a black-out drunk will realize when he has done something which may justifiably get him killed.

The Bill of Rights, taken at face value, is a scary thing, but I think that's the point. Those who lack the self-control to responsibly live with such unabashed freedom quickly identify themselves, are quickly jailed, and their rights are quickly taken away.

Even more immediately, if you step on the rights of others to a degree that you endanger the lives of others, your stupidity and irresponsibility may be answered with equal force.

I think the answer to your question is this:

We no longer value freedom enough to accept the consequences that come with it.

 

[Brian Dale]

The Bill of Rights, taken at face value, is a scary thing, but I think that's the point.

Classic, Kind of Blued. That would be a great sig line, if you don't mind the suggestion.

 

[Kind of Blued]

Thanks Brian. A thread on open carry started by forumite Mainsail contains a response of his in which he explains how civil liberties can be frightening to some people. That definitely stuck with me.

Here it is. The entire thread it great if you feel like a read: http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4608899&postcount=37

 

[owlhoot]

Your major premis is wrong. Actually our forefathers couldn't legally carry guns either openly of concealed in most towns of the old west and certainly not in the towns and cities east of the Mississippi. Some people illegally carried concealed and most carried while travelling, but the truth is that the old west was never as wild as MLK Blvd. in most any city you'd care to name.

In those fledgling towns and mining camps where open carry was tolerated things did get hairly often. Gambling was much more widespread then than it is now. When you mix guns, gambling, booze, and soiled doves into one pot, there is bound to be a little boil over from time to time.

Same thing applies today, guns and dope, booze, women, etc. is a volitile combination.

 

[Kind of Blued]

owlhoot, I'm not sure if it's MLA or APA, but I think if you say "it isn't like it is on TV", you're fine, but if you say anything approaching the opposite, you must cite a source.

 

[benEzra]

If no one in my family is drinking, why should I/we be barred from carrying just because the restaurant we are dining at has a wine list?

Carrying in a bar (where most people are there to drink and interact) is much different from carrying in a restaurant.

And FWIW, Florida lets CHL holders carry in restaurants with wine lists, but not at bars (including bars in restaurants). That is entirely reasonable.

 

[Deanimator]

The truth is that people have been both responsible and wildly irresponsible in this country where liquor and firearms were combined.

I think it was Askins in his book on gunfighters who noted that a BIG portion of the old west shootings involved alcohol, just as a lot of violent crime today involves alcohol and drugs.

I wish that I could carry into liquor serving restaurants in Ohio. Even if I could, I wouldn't drink. It'd just be more convenient for me to not have to disarm before eating dinner as I do now.

I like to carry a gun. I like to drink. I DON'T like to combine the two.

 

[MAKster]

I don't accept the premise. I think it is a myth that back in colonial times, the Old West, or the "good old days" that most people carried handguns. I doubt few if any did. Handguns were very expensive in relation to monthly wages. The most common firearms were long guns like single shot shotguns. Contrary to what you see in movies most of the towns in the old west had laws banning carrying firearms within city limits. I suspect the number of people concealed carrying today is actually greater than at any time in the history of our country.

 

[Grassman]

I think it's just a sheer numbers thing. A lot more people now rather then the 1700's. Also the media will relentlessly blow things out of proportion. People are generally the same. IMO

 

[Kind of Blued]

I think it is a myth that back in colonial times, the Old West, or the "good old days" that most people carried handguns. I doubt few if any did.

That's a heck of an absolutist statement.

Here's mine: I'm sure that at any point since 1860 at least one American regularly carried a gun. Probably two or more.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

we were capable of carrying firearms, under the influence of alcohol, and almost nothing bad ever happened

Some people can still carry guns under the influence, and by sheer fortune not have anything bad happen.

I'd say to treat guns & drinking like cars and drinking.

You can carry a gun in to a bar, but you can't get drunk.

 

[louie19]

In Virginia, you can't conceal carry in an alcohol serving restaurant even if you have a concealed carry permit. However, you CAN open carry in one.

But I agree with JImbothefiveth: if you're going to carry, you shouldn't drink. Think of yourself as the designated driver / carry-er.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

My thoughts on carrying into alcohol-serving establishments is that the people who don't intend to be miscreants and aren't inclined to get crazy and shoot someone are the very people who would have the license to carry. The people who are willing to get into trouble bring their guns knowing that they might end up doing something dumb (which they approve of), and do so without regard to whether the law sanctions carrying into the watering-hole. I would venture to say that it is pretty rare for a level-headed person to get drunk and turn into a gun-toting jerk, since the people who are civil when they're sober tend not to carry a gun when they get wasted, if they get wasted at all. I would also say that many of the miscreants get drunk for the purpose of getting artificially emboldened, rather than casually consenting to it as a possibility.

 

[Brian Dale]

Common sense and clear thinking mean that you're obviously unfit for legislative office, Beagle-zebub. You'd never catch most law-mongers writing like that.

 

[Just Jim]

What's different???? Well there are a hell of alot more people now than when we first started. People then had to be self suficient and free compared to today we have socialism that runs your life.

Even though they took care of themselves in the beginning they still wanted to be good neighbors and help others. Everyone in a comunity pitched in and it benefited all. Today people are stuck in their little lives with their cell phones and computors to make them happy.

Really the world changed, it used to be you would buy a gun and man up to the responsibility it took to carry it. Today you let people tell you that you ain't a good person and you better not carry at certian times, and you believe it cause they said it.

jj