Is my old 9mm brass the problem here?

[9mmGoon]

Back in March this year I decided to try my hand at reloading. I knew my dad had a leftover 3 gallon bucket full of 9mm he ordered from Midway approximately 30 years ago.
I started out with a Hornady load manual and began loading. I used 4.7gn of CFE Pistol,cci primers, 124gn hornady fmj seated to 1.150.
Initial tests were good so i pressed on to 1000 rounds.
I began getting case failures. Seems like 1 in 60 average. I destroyed a glock frame when a case blew out at the head. I began running them in a pcc and have had a few more fail but no damage to the pcc. So im wandering if these cases are too brittle due to age because i have tried different powders, seat depths, primers and the lot but still have case failures.
Thanks for any help.

 

[Howa 9700]

Bad brass? Looks to be name brand Win, so not likely. More like firing out of battery.......perhaps your chamber is too short for a round loaded to that case length?

Do these rounds pass a plunk test?

 

[CQB45ACP]

Are you certain you haven’t over/double charged?

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Something isn't right. That is a high failure rate, I wouldn't be shooting anymore of it till I nailed the issue down.

Did you gauge them after loading? What type of CCI primer were you using? Powder from a new can, wasn't something which could have been mixed? Have you chronied any?

 

[noelf2]

Perhaps not enough crimp on the bullets, and some are seating deeper when chambering. That can cause a serious pressure spike, especially with 9mm.

 

[N555]

Yep that looks like an out of battery blow out.
Can you post a pic showing the side of the blown out cases?
I have reloaded brass legitimately from WW2 so it's not "old brass".

 

[Charlie98]

So im wandering if these cases are too brittle due to age

It's quite possible... not only age, but contamination. Who knows how they were stored, in what environment, and what they may have been exposed to. I've had the same problem with some once-fired LC 7.62mm brass (contamination) that was blowing case heads. It's not fun. I wound up scrapping nearly 2000 cases, after pulling about 700 rounds. Again, not fun.

Certainly review your load, or even post it here, to make sure it's not you.

 

[Jim Watson]

30 years is not old, I am loading TZZ 86 .45s with normal results.

Gonna have to explain how you get centered firing pin hits "out of battery" in a Browning lock gun like a Glock.
And in two completely different guns?

Bullet setback is a possibility, give the loaded rounds a good push against the edge of the bench. Or 40 lbs against a bathroom scale if you want a number.

They look very tarnished, Dad might have left them exposed to something corrosive to brass.

Not an overload, if your scale is right, 124 9mm + 4.7 CFE-P is a Hodgdon starting load.

The first thing I would do after checking neck tension and charge weight is to get some fresh brass. Doesn't have to be a bucket full, just a box or two shot and recovered for once fired new brass.

 

[Charlie98]

Gonna have to explain how you get centered firing pin hits "out of battery" in a Browning lock gun like a Glock.

Well... and I was wondering that, too...

I'm going back to my premise of contaminated brass.

 

[Buzznrose]

Well... and I was wondering that, too...

I'm going back to my premise of contaminated brass.

I honestly doubt the cases are bad if no corrosion exists.

When I got back into reloading, I found two things that were perplexing me and caused a lot of issues…

1. I was using a brand new, cheap Hornady electric scale that I calibrated using the provided weight. Loading middle of the load W231, I was sending brass 12-15 feet away. Bought a beam scale and found the electric was several grains off. DOUBLE CHECK your scale is accurate.

2. Another issue I was having was using a barrel for the “plunk test”. Maybe I’m a slow kid but I had MUCH better results when I started using a cartridge gauge instead. Now I run all rounds through the gauge and have zero issues with seating rounds.

Hope this helps…

 

[Charlie98]

I honestly doubt the cases are bad if no corrosion exists.

There are things that will weaken brass that don't cause corrosion...

These LC cases weren't corroded, in fact, they looked great. The results told me otherwise...

 

[reddog81]

I would say try different brass and see what happens, but I have a feeling the brass is not the issue here. And I would not want to be shooting any more of whatever is causing that.

Try loading 2 rounds into the gun, shoot the first and then eject and inspect the second to see if the length has shortened at all. Maybe repeat a few times paying attention to make sure the gun is fully in battery before and after each shot. That assumes you feel safe shooting more of those loads...

How many of the 1000 do you have left?

 

[9mmGoon]

Bad brass? Looks to be name brand Win, so not likely. More like firing out of battery.......perhaps your chamber is too short for a round loaded to that case length?

Do these rounds pass a plunk test?

Yes i drop them in a hornady case gauge after resize and bullet seat. Ive dropped them in chambers as well.

 

[9mmGoon]

Are you certain you haven’t over/double charged?

100 percent positive,,,if my scale is correct

 

[9mmGoon]

Something isn't right. That is a high failure rate, I wouldn't be shooting anymore of it till I nailed the issue down.

Did you gauge them after loading? What type of CCI primer were you using? Powder from a new can, wasn't something which could have been mixed? Have you chronied any?

Cci small pistol, the powder i bought new, they chrono average 1050fps Labradar

 

[9mmGoon]

Perhaps not enough crimp on the bullets, and some are seating deeper when chambering. That can cause a serious pressure spike, especially with 9mm.

Quite possible. I have tested my crimp by pulling some of the bullets but thats no guarantee to speak for all if them. Good point

 

[9mmGoon]

Yep that looks like an out of battery blow out.
Can you post a pic showing the side of the blown out cases?
I have reloaded brass legitimately from WW2 so it's not "old brass".

Will do, I can get a side pic when i get home

 

[lordpaxman]

@9mmGoon , welcome to THR.
I haven’t loaded 30 year old brass, but maybe 20. I’d tumble some and see inside if there’s any evidence of corrosion, but I doubt that’s an issue.
With that many failures, something isn‘t right. Case head blowout like that is over pressure, either the charge isn’t what you think, or you’re getting some serious setback. What’s your reloading process? Do you have checkweights for your scale? Have you checked for setback?

 

[9mmGoon]

I honestly doubt the cases are bad if no corrosion exists.

When I got back into reloading, I found two things that were perplexing me and caused a lot of issues…

1. I was using a brand new, cheap Hornady electric scale that I calibrated using the provided weight. Loading middle of the load W231, I was sending brass 12-15 feet away. Bought a beam scale and found the electric was several grains off. DOUBLE CHECK your scale is accurate.

2. Another issue I was having was using a barrel for the “plunk test”. Maybe I’m a slow kid but I had MUCH better results when I started using a cartridge gauge instead. Now I run all rounds through the gauge and have zero issues with seating rounds.

Hope this helps…

In fact i am using a little Hornady digital scale. I will order the scale you mentioned asap.

 

[lordpaxman]

Quite possible. I have tested my crimp by pulling some of the bullets but thats no guarantee to speak for all if them. Good point

Just to be clear, for 9mm taper crimp, the crimp does not prevent setback. It’s neck tension that prevents setback and that’s established by the sizer die in conjunction with the expander.

 

[9mmGoon]

I would say try different brass and see what happens, but I have a feeling the brass is not the issue here. And I would not want to be shooting any more of whatever is causing that.

Try loading 2 rounds into the gun, shoot the first and then eject and inspect the second to see if the length has shortened at all. Maybe repeat a few times paying attention to make sure the gun is fully in battery before and after each shot. That assumes you feel safe shooting more of those loads...

How many of the 1000 do you have left?

Im literally afraid to shoot anyone in a pislol but I’ll try that experiment in the pcc. I have 400ish left.

 

[9mmGoon]

@9mmGoon , welcome to THR.
I haven’t loaded 30 year old brass, but maybe 20. I’d tumble some and see inside if there’s any evidence of corrosion, but I doubt that’s an issue.
With that many failures, something isn‘t right. Case head blowout like that is over pressure, either the charge isn’t what you think, or you’re getting some serious setback. What’s your reloading process? Do you have checkweights for your scale? Have you checked for setback?

I have a slow process as i do 50 pieces all one step at a time. Size all, bell all, prime all charge all, seat all then crimp all.
The charge weight as i have learned could be in question. All i have is a little Hornady digital scale.

 

[9mmGoon]

I have a slow process as i do 50 pieces all one step at a time. Size all, bell all, prime all charge all, seat all then crimp all.
The charge weight as i have learned could be in question. All i have is a little Hornady digital scale.

Not sure what setback is or how to check it.

 

[Howa 9700]

Dropping loaded round into the chamber is a start.....and even more so if while in the chamber you rotate it to see if it spins freely. But that is only a quick check. There is another better step to follow.

About an hour ago, I tested a new to me bullet in my chamber. Found an empty, unsized fired case that the bullet fit snugly in, then inserted the bullet just far enough to hold it, then pressed that into the empty chamber. First stop was when the ogive of the bullet engaged the rifling. kept pressing....which pushed the bullet into the case.....and kept pressing until the case head spaced on the mouth. At that point, the brass was in as far as it would go and bullet just touching the lands of the barrel. That length measured 1.135. To get a safe distance off the lands, I subtracted 0.015 thousands to give me the max safe COAL for that bullet in my gun.

That was 1.135 - 0.015 = 1.120 Which is also the book load from Nosler for that bullet. If the throat of my chamber was as little as 0.020 less than it is, that round would not chamber. It might look OK if dropped into the chamber, but would not go into battery.

If you are loading anything to a length of 1.150, you might be right on the ragged edge of what chambers and what doesn't.

 

[9mmGoon]

Just to be clear, for 9mm taper crimp, the crimp does not prevent setback. It’s neck tension that prevents setback and that’s established by the sizer die in conjunction with the expander.

Ok, RCBS die set with Lee taper die. I bell just enough to get the bullet to sit on the sized brass.