Is my old 9mm brass the problem here?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Everything I've read has me leaning toward bad brass. Maybe contaminated somehow, maybe not made correctly.

Either way, I wouldn't shoot any more of those reloads. I would pull them, and reuse what I could, and scrap the brass. Just my .02c.

chris
 
So you are tare weighing each case. Slow but accurate.

I was wrestling my Dillon trying get 4.6 grains HP38. Not 4.7 dammit. I know it will vary in mass production but I want to start out spot on.
 
Everything I've read has me leaning toward bad brass. Maybe contaminated somehow, maybe not made correctly.

Either way, I wouldn't shoot any more of those reloads. I would pull them, and reuse what I could, and scrap the brass. Just my .02c.

chris
And send me some of that brass or another somebody on THR.

I’ll figure a way to test it or have it tested just to put this to bed.
 
I do it all the time. Realize it’s a digital scale and the tare function zeros the scale with the empty case. I even keep a primed empty case of every caliber with its grain weight marked on the side so when I do setups and calibrations I’ll check to see if scale matches again with that case.
When I’m loading a production run on the progressive a QC check is to pull a primed case, tare, powder charge and check the throw. A digital scale makes that check very easy and you don’t slow down the run very much at all.

@9mmGoon , perhaps you did this, but did you weigh your bullets and confirm their weight? I would also check their diameter. Perhaps they’re a bit oversized contributing to pressure. It’s a mystery for sure, but even if 50 reloads in different brass are ok, it doesn’t necessarily point to the old brass as the issue. That’s why I suggested someone else load the old brass and try it.
I got a power pack for my LabRadar since eating batteries is out of the question.
I double check my powder thrower that way. Weigh the primed case, push tare, charge the case, re-weigh the case. I use what I consider a medium range electronic scale and calibrate it before use with a 2, 10 and 50 gram check weight suppled with the scale. I've checked those weights against a very high dollar scientific scale in a lab where I worked.
 
So you are tare weighing each case. Slow but accurate.

I was wrestling my Dillon trying get 4.6 grains HP38. Not 4.7 dammit. I know it will vary in mass production but I want to start out spot on.
Sounds like were cut from the same cloth. 1/10th off and i wanna pull my hair out haha
 
<Raises hand...>

Ok, dumb question, but don't see it addressed:

Can you manually cycle a mag full and check the COAL of the ejected rounds?
Sure, depending on how the gun feeds the round into the barrel, you might learn a lot or a little. I wouldn't let them hit a concrete floor though.
 
Back in March this year I decided to try my hand at reloading. I knew my dad had a leftover 3 gallon bucket full of 9mm he ordered from Midway approximately 30 years ago.
I started out with a Hornady load manual and began loading. I used 4.7gn of CFE Pistol,cci primers, 124gn hornady fmj seated to 1.150.
Initial tests were good so i pressed on to 1000 rounds.
I began getting case failures. Seems like 1 in 60 average. I destroyed a glock frame when a case blew out at the head. I began running them in a pcc and have had a few more fail but no damage to the pcc. So im wandering if these cases are too brittle due to age because i have tried different powders, seat depths, primers and the lot but still have case failures.
Thanks for any help.
Man that is showing some serious "Glock bulge" for sure. That's not the problem but it sure does not help. That definitely looks hotter than factory Win NATO rounds which are pretty hot. Your load should not be that hot though, did you run them over a chronograph? OAL could be wrong causing pressure spikes, doubt its the brass, but hard to tell anything without a velocity rating.
 
Yes, i have pulled 25 bullets this morning and checked charge weights. 24 @ 4.7 and 1 @ 4.6.
These guys have misinterpreted my method of weighing powder charges. I felt like I explained it well enough but apparently its hard for some to wrap their brain around. Idk, the point is i weigh them all. I use hornady projectiles exclusively and the weight of them is very consistent among the 100s i have weighed of various calibers. I do not buy factory seconds.
Perhaps i should put up a YT video explaining my “process” because comprehensive reading seems to have died out haha
Your weighing method is perfectly fine. Since your failure rate was 1 in 60, I would try to disassemble at least 75 rounds just to rule out any over charges.

It's sounding like it could be the brass.

The only other thing I can think of is crimp/bullet setback. I think you mentioned somewhere that you tried pushing a bullet in and it wouldn't budge. Maybe 1 in 60 ended up with too much crimp (or too little crimp and got set back too much while chambering).
 
Without reading the entire thread...and reading the initial question post plus pics, I think the cases he's pictured show heavily cratered primers not to mention the blowouts...very high pressures there....at a minimum I'd suggest he re-check the load, and his measure settings, plus reviewing his technique for dropping powder to eliminated charge variations or double charges. A case blow out is very serious and indicative of extremely high pressure.

It may be a case problem though I doubt it...some of my 9mm cases have been loaded a dozen times, as I strive for accuracy & reliability first with mid-level loads. While I do reload for cost savings in practice and hunting ammunition, I use only factory rounds for personal defense due to the possible legal implications of using home reloaded ammunition.

IMHO, there is no reason to push for the highest possible muzzle velocity for practice or even hunting ammunition. Moderate loads are easier on both the gun and shooter, and will give adequate practice in handling recoil etc. Pushing the limits represents a danger to the shooter as well as those who accompany him on the firing line....

YMMv, Rod
 
Last edited:
I use a hornady powder thrower with the pistol metering insert. Its very good with ball powder for pistol loads. Actually i did search for a CFE P recall and found nothing. Also emailed Hodgdon with the same question and they replied basically saying there hasn’t been a recall.
I will tell you this, the Hornady load data and the load data you find on Hodgdons website are not identical. In the book Hornady has some 900fps load data down to 4.2 grains. Hodgdons own load data shows 4.7 grains as the minimum charge but both agree on coal as 1.150 for 124gn fmj. I checked both sources before i started.
When I started reloading decades ago no two reloading manuals agreed on the same thing. This was the early days of reloading when things were relatively new. I told myself back then that the reloading manual folks would work things out later so all their data matched. Wrongo. Decades later their data still doesn't match. For something as precise as reloading I consider this odd.
 
I started my hand loading/reloading journey when I was a young teen. The only thing I had access to was the library. My dad did not handload nor did I know anyone that did. I wish the www was available back then it would have made the learning curve lot faster.

Load data is a just a collection of test reports on what they got with their equipment, powder, primer, bullet, and brass. Your results will vary since you don't have their gear and supplies. Reloading requires a general understanding of what variables that need to be watched carefully, all have a influence. Experience will help you fine tune your skill and knowledge. Keep good notes so you don't keep repeating the same test expecting different results. And have something to reference to when you have problem recalling all the details.
 
It seems like there are two possibilities still. One, that something is pleading to an overcharge. Maybe not zeroing the scale or the scale not zeroing and the weight difference in cases leads to an overcharge.

The other is that you have some bad brass mixed in there. Either manufacturing flaws or softening/embrittlement in storage.

If it were a rare brass and not 9mm, I’d put a lot more into finding a way to sort good from bad brass. I think the solution is like others have said, get a few hundred pieces of other brass and load the same way. If you get problems, then it’s your loading procedure, if not, then it’s more likely the brass.
 
OP is the first person I've heard of that weighs the powder charge......4.7 grains.......with and by subtracting weight of the individual brass case. The accuracy of that method being highly suspect in my mind. Would be curious to see what charge weights were if about 10 of these were pulled.

In theory, the math works but scale has to be sensitive enough to pick up the difference.
That's basically what you do with a weighing pan. Subtracting the weight of the pan or, in this case, a case, pun intended, is more or less a tare weight.
It's just a ginormous PITA, to my thinking. Resetting the tare for each case, plus a case mouth is a smaller target than a pan.
Tare is either a mechanical or, with digital scales, a computer subtraction of the weight of the holder (pan or case) from the substance being weighed, the powder.
There's probably more variation in the charge from a pan due to error in the weighing, which would be consistent between the two methods, coupled with potential loss in pouring. This is picking nits, though.
 
I have studied up on this very thing. Apparently there are several chemicals that will break down the zinc quite quickly. This process also commonly turns the brass pink or pinkish according to the severity. The brass came fairly clean. How and with what is unknown. The brass is physically harder than the new Remington brass i now have. Conducting crush tests have revealed some cases are quite brittle.
Since you're finding brittle brass, that settles it in my thinking.
Toss it ALL or sell it to a metal recycler and get new.
FWIW, zinc, as an element, doesn't break down, it either reacts to form a new compound or gets leached out of the alloy.
 
Last edited:
That's basically what you do with a weighing pan. Subtracting the weight of the pan or, in this case, a case, pun intended, is more or less a tare weight.
It's just a ginormous PITA, to my thinking. Resetting the tare for each case, plus a case mouth is a smaller target than a pan.
Tare is either a mechanical or, with digital scales, a computer subtraction of the weight of the holder (pan or case) from the substance being weighed, the powder.
There's probably more variation in the charge from a pan due to error in the weighing, which would be consistent between the two methods, coupled with potential loss in pouring. This is picking nits, though.
So exactly what makes this method “highly suspect” in your opinion?
And what method do you recommend would be more accurate because im getting real tired of defending every single thing i do with one person or another who are trying to blame anything but the old brass.
“It ain’t me, its not how i weigh a charge, the case failures im having are due to bad cases”. Period
 
Without reading the entire thread...and reading the initial question post plus pics, I think the cases he's pictured show heavily cratered primers not to mention the blowouts...very high pressures there....at a minimum I'd suggest he re-check the load, and his measure settings, plus reviewing his technique for dropping powder to eliminated charge variations or double charges. A case blow out is very serious and indicative of extremely high pressure.

It may be a case problem though I doubt it...some of my 9mm cases have been loaded a dozen times, as I strive for accuracy & reliability first with mid-level loads. While I do reload for cost savings in practice and hunting ammunition, I use only factory rounds for personal defense due to the possible legal implications of using home reloaded ammunition.

IMHO, there is no reason to push for the highest possible muzzle velocity for practice or even hunting ammunition. Moderate loads are easier on both the gun and shooter, and will give adequate practice in handling recoil etc. Pushing the limits represents a danger to the shooter as well as those who accompany him on the firing line....

YMMv, Rod
Well if that’s your opinion you should probably read the entire thread. I have went through and checked alot of them, i have pulled some, i have weighed them, petted them, polished them, changed their bedding, and even asked them nicely. Still cant find one where i did something wrong NOR are the loaded to max charge. In fact, they are ALL minimum charge target load.
 
So exactly what makes this method “highly suspect” in your opinion?
And what method do you recommend would be more accurate because im getting real tired of defending every single thing i do with one person or another who are trying to blame anything but the old brass.
“It ain’t me, its not how i weigh a charge, the case failures im having are due to bad cases”. Period
Now c’mon 9mm, you can’t walk into a gym and complain about the exercise nor a bar and the boozers. This forum is like the Inquisition and nobody expects the Inquisition but they should’ve:)
 
Well if that’s your opinion you should probably read the entire thread. I have went through and checked alot of them, i have pulled some, i have weighed them, petted them, polished them, changed their bedding, and even asked them nicely. Still cant find one where i did something wrong NOR are the loaded to max charge. In fact, they are ALL minimum charge target load.
I agree—read em all. Don’t just fly by and comment.

I’ve read them all and find you far more patient than most others would ever be.

BUT I’m skeptical you did not make a mistake vs having bad brass.
 
I have studied up on this very thing. Apparently there are several chemicals that will break down the zinc quite quickly. This process also commonly turns the brass pink or pinkish according to the severity. The brass came fairly clean. How and with what is unknown. The brass is physically harder than the new Remington brass i now have. Conducting crush tests have revealed some cases are quite brittle.
In ‘85 the USAF rejected a batch of brass wiring harness supports from Central Machining (Grumman subcontractor) because they failed strength tests. Central polished the parts in a wet tumbler with rocks that contained lye. Normally lye doesn’t do much to brass besides give it a dull patina - which is how the specification read - but neutralizing the base lye with a weak acid, like acetic acid - will eat the material.
Brand new brass exposed to ammonia, certain acids, or other chemicals which leach tin can and probably will be brittle.
Keep in mind the people who decided to take a shortcut and use a chemical process to dull the metal finish instead of hiring hand finishers to do it mechanically were fully qualified engineers who should have known better. Anyone can make a mistake and sometimes it takes a few tests to expose them.
Good luck with the new brass.
 
So exactly what makes this method “highly suspect” in your opinion?
It seems like it would be slower for me, but I don't see why it wouldn't be every bit as accurate. So if it works for you, and you're happy with that method, stick with it. More than one way to skin a cat, or in this case, reload.

I am still in the camp that thinks you have some bad brass. It may not all be bad, but if I destroyed a gun I would get rid of all of it. I don't know what scrap prices are, but that's where it would all go if it were mine. I honestly don't think it's bad because it's 30 years old, I think it was made wrong or contaminated. One gun has an incident, possibly fired OOB. But two or even three guns? Happened in each gun? Pull the remainder apart, salvage the components you want to save, and move on.

My .02 cents.

chris
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top