Is recoil really that big an issue?

[Jason_W]

I've had three shoulder operations, at the ages of 15, 20 and 42. I never noticed recoil until after the third operation. I really notice it now. Instead of deer and hog hunting with a .270 and 30-06 I now use a 6.5x55 and 30-30. I now use a 20 gauge for dove, quail and turkey and only use a 3" 12 gauge for duck and geese. Since going lighter it seems the animals have died just as fast.

Without a doubt.

I'm a huge fan of the 20. I'm of the opinion that a where the larger bore guns start offering a huge advantage is when large shot sizes are needed such as when hunting geese. But, that's a different argument for a different thread.

Also, I don't want to come off as ragging on recoil sensitive people or people who due to surgery etc. need lighter kicking guns. Just the mentality that recoil is reason alone to forsake the shotgun to the footnotes of history.

Also, even a light 20 ga. load still out-recoils a 5.56 by a great margin.

 

[Wis-Harpo]

The worst shotguns I have fired were Ithaca 12 and 16 gauges. They both had a terrible kick because they did not fit me ( they belonged to high school friends in the 60's) I now shoot an older Rem 1100 which is chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells only. I use 1 1/4 to 1 3/8 ounce loads for pheasants the week that I go to South Dakota each year---no problems. I also use a Rem 870 with the same shells with no problems. The only trouble is with the 870 I forget to pump the action due to shooting the 1100 so much. My first shotgun was a Rem model 31 in 20 gauge that my grandfather gave me in 1961, I still have it today. We shot .22 rifles squirrel hunting in Sept., then switched to shotguns in early Oct for ducks and geese, then pheasants as a kid in Wisconsin.

 

[Riomouse911]

What I take issue with is the trend of portraying the shotgun as the worst type of gun ever invented. While a big part of my affinity for the shotgun is admittedly nostalgia, a shotgun is still arguably the most versatile weapon a civilian can lay hands on.

That can't be denied! It'll throw small or large shot, and solid rounds as well, making it good for just about anything that walks, flies or crawls upon the Continent. With a manually operated gun, you can shoot anything that it's chambered for and you'll be sure it will cycle. They can be a bit unwieldy and difficult to use in close quarters, and they don't really like "low recoil-tactical" loads, but the old Benelli M-1 I was issued was definitely a show stopper when called upon.

As for my opinion of the shotgun: About three weeks ago some armed felon ended a pursuit about 5 blocks behind/below my house (I live on a hill) and he ran through the neighborhood towards where I live. For several hours the local PD/SO was yard to yard searching on foot with dogs and a helicopter. I locked up downstairs, turned on all my exterior lights and alarm, and went to my second story deck to keep watch on my rear yard. With all the potential arms I could have chosen, I had in hand my Wingmaster with 20" rifle-sight barrel and +3 extension, Federal 1 buck in the chamber and mag, and a sidesaddle with 3 more buckshot and 3 Winchester segmenting slugs because I felt it was the best choice for the task at hand.

 

[expat_alaska]

The only trouble is with the 870 I forget to pump the action due to shooting the 1100 so much. My first shotgun was a Rem model 31 in 20 gauge that my grandfather gave me in 1961, I still have it today..

I find that funny. I had an 1100 before I traded it for an 870 and never looked back, and never forgot to rack it. When shooting doubles on skeet stations #1, 2, 6, and 7, one had better not forget.

The Rem 31 was a very good early pump gun. Shot a friend's 31 once but never owned one. You are lucky to have one, sir.

Jim
]

 

[Armored farmer]

only shoot about 4-6 thousand clay birds a year now as opposed to the 25-30 thousand I used to when I shot competitive skeet and sporting clays

5000 birds/yr is a bunch of shooting if all those birds are in competition.

 

[cdb1]

I've always had trouble with pumps, in the heat of the moment I short stroke or fail to pump at all. The solution was simple. I used some calf money to buy an A5 and have never shot a pump since.

 

[1911 guy]

cdb1, I had the opposite problem. My very first autoloading gun, I manually cycled it after the shot when I was not relaxed. I adjusted quickly, but it was an adjustment.

I think the short stroking problem stems from people being afraid of abusing their shotguns, when in reality they are meant to be worked "vigorously". Or as my Grandad told me, "shuck it like you mean it".

Back on topic: Yes, recoil is cumulative. Yes, there are some guns that simply do not fit certain people and beat the dickens out of them. Lower recoiling options often let people avoid learning to shoot a shotgun. But generations of people all across the world have done so with no complaint until recently..

 

[cdb1]

I believe the "no complaints until recently" has a lot to do with men not having to be as macho as society used to expect.

I also know that felt recoil and cheek slap is surprisingly lighter with shotgun stock that fits.

 

[Jason_W]

I believe the "no complaints until recently" has a lot to do with men not having to be as macho as society used to expect.

I also know that felt recoil and cheek slap is surprisingly lighter with shotgun stock that fits.

I think it's more of an instant gratification thing. Guns that recoil simply take more time and effort to master, while anyone can pick up an AR fitted with a decent reflex sight and be hitting clay bird sized targets at 100 yards inside an afternoon. From a military and police standpoint, that's great. It boosts on the job efficiency. Still, I kinda hate to see every activity become "point and click".

 

[1911 guy]

I reject the "don't have to be as macho" argument on grounds of common sense. Firearms have been around for centuries and developments have been steady with occasional spurts and lags. The shotgun has remained nearly unchanged, aside from minor developments in action design, for about a century. Some of the most desirable guns are still well made doubles, a design that has remained unchanged since the advent of fixed ammunition. People avoiding shotguns is simply a symptom of the instant gratification mentality mentioned by Jason W and a willingness to throw money at specialized guns instead of sucking it up through the learning curve to take advantage of one of the most versatile firearms ever invented. If a five foot four inch woman can gold medal with a shotgun, there is no reason any healthy person can't handle it other than lack of self discipline and motivation. Machismo has nothing to do with it.

 

[ironworkerwill]

I am a very large man and I consider 3-1/2 in turkey loads in the Mossberg a bit excessive. Recoil at that level is not fun for an adult..... maybe for youths proving thier toughness.

 

[Jason_W]

I am a very large man and I consider 3-1/2 in turkey loads in the Mossberg a bit excessive. Recoil at that level is not fun for an adult..... maybe for youths proving thier toughness.

I don't think there's anyone alive who thinks 3.5" loads are fun. The extra hull space might be useful for larger shot sizes, but I'm not convinced 3.5" rounds are necessary for turkey. The pellets fly at pretty much the same speed no matter what and a really even pattern will make up for a lower pellet count.

 

[Steve C]

Recoil is mostly about weight of the gun the power of the shell and how snug you hold it against your shoulder. A lightweight gun on the other hand is great when you have to lug it around in the field but can be brutal with even modest power ammo.

I bought a used Ithaca 12 ga featherlight that only had a hard butt plate when I purchased it. While it may have been OK in a cold climate with heavy clothing in Arizona where October weather is in the 70-80's it beat me black and blue when I used it to shoot quail with light 1 oz field and game loads. Was wearing a T shirt and padded shell vest. A trip to the gunsmith to install a good recoil pad to tame the recoil made it a great hunting gun to carry and tolerable to shoot.

 

[ironworkerwill]

I don't think there's anyone alive who thinks 3.5" loads are fun. The extra hull space might be useful for larger shot sizes, but I'm not convinced 3.5" rounds are necessary for turkey. The pellets fly at pretty much the same speed no matter what and a really even pattern will make up for a lower pellet count.

The pellets indeed fly at mostly the same speed but there's no replacement for displacement https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2011/4/18/3-12-inch-turkey-loads-worth-the-recoil/.

If you're a stellar turkey Hunter and can call them close enough to smell them,
a 410 will work fine.

 

[cdb1]

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Danoobie]

I think it's more of an instant gratification thing. Guns that recoil simply take more time and effort to master, while anyone can pick up an AR fitted with a decent reflex sight and be hitting clay bird sized targets at 100 yards inside an afternoon. From a military and police standpoint, that's great. It boosts on the job efficiency. Still, I kinda hate to see every activity become "point and click".

Back in the day, recoil wasn't the issue it is now. Maybe we all just sucked it up, or maybe there were
higher priorities than a little discomfort from shooting a " boo-yah, awesome!" gun.

 

[Sav .250]

"falling out of favor in the US." A bold statement with out facts.........
You can buy reduced loads to soften said re-coil.
Pus, smaller gauge may also could be the answer. Recoil to some is a consideration but can
be "tamed" some by various loads.
Quoting hear say, is just that. Hear say. JMO.

 

[SteadyD]

Maybe it's just the frozen juicy fruit talking, but I'm not a fan of 12 gauge recoil. I much prefer a 20 gauge. For a deer rifle I like 243, 30-30, or 357 magnum carbine.

Now, I'm slight of build, just 5'9" and 135 lbs, so that may be a factor, but also I'm more interested in handguns, so any recoil mitigation that extra practice with shotguns might afford me isn't likely to take place. They just aren't my thing. Some folks may not be sissies, they just might not find long guns interesting enough to be worth getting their shoulder beat on until they develop better technique.

However, since I love snub nose revolvers, I've shot them enough to where a little 642/442 doesn't bother me in the slightest even when shooting several hundred rounds of +p in a session. I'm sure there are some proponents of 12 gauges here that wouldn't want to put that many rounds through a lightweight j frame because of the recoil. Different strokes for different folks, and all.

 

[RecoilRob]

A good recoil pad can make even a stout kicker tolerable, but a solid metal plate against the shoulder can eventually make even a recoil tolerant person start to get tender. A great example is my Baikal Coach Gun (external hammers) and a day of Sporting Clays. I took some heavy handloaded ammo (trying to give myself a chance at hitting anything) and it was really barking...and kicking. So much so that a bunch of people came out to see what was making all the racket. Of course...they wanted to shoot it and everyone winced afterwards and didn't want a second go round. I even had to resort to the strap-on Past recoil pad about 3/4 the way through as the shoulder was beginning to really hurt. The human body does have limits as to what it will tolerate without damage, and going over that level of impact....even with good technique....is going to create pain.

 

[entropy]

Maybe it's just the frozen juicy fruit talking, but I'm not a fan of 12 gauge recoil. I much prefer a 20 gauge. For a deer rifle I like 243, 30-30, or 357 magnum carbine.

Now, I'm slight of build, just 5'9" and 135 lbs, so that may be a factor, but also I'm more interested in handguns, so any recoil mitigation that extra practice with shotguns might afford me isn't likely to take place. They just aren't my thing. Some folks may not be sissies, they just might not find long guns interesting enough to be worth getting their shoulder beat on until they develop better technique.

However, since I love snub nose revolvers, I've shot them enough to where a little 642/442 doesn't bother me in the slightest even when shooting several hundred rounds of +p in a session. I'm sure there are some proponents of 12 gauges here that wouldn't want to put that many rounds through a lightweight j frame because of the recoil. Different strokes for different folks, and all.

And yet, there are women and children who shoot Trap, Skeet, and Sporting Clays who are much smaller than you, and shoot sometimes hundreds of rounds a day. I grew up working on a Trap range. The manager's daughter was just over 5 feet tall, 100 lbs. soaking wet, and shot an average of 100 shots (4 rounds of Trap) a day. Recoil never bothered her.

What's lost here is the correct training technique. That girl's father taught both her and I how to correctly mount a shotgun to the shoulder to both shoot better and minimize recoil. I spent the first hour after he showed me that mounting and remounting the shotgun under his watchful eye, until it became muscle memory. 40 years later, it still is. I try to pass it on as a 4-H leader, but since I don't have the time there to watch them do it for an hour, I have them do it for a couple minutes, then encourage them to continue at home if possible. (Yes, I include instructions to be triple-sure the gun is unloaded, and they all get the Four Rules at every shot)

 

[cdb1]

We are opposites SteadyD. I'm a long gun person and am not really into handguns though I have ten or so. There is an exception and that is late model Cobras and Detecive Specials. I have no idea why. Have one of each and silly as it sounds writing it, I sometimes take them out of the safe just because I love looking at them.

 

[kudu]

5000 birds/yr is a bunch of shooting if all those birds are in competition.

I averaged 400-600 skeet targets a week practice, and a registered skeet weekend was 100 doubles, 100 12 gauge, 100 20 gauge, 100 28 gauge and 100 .410, plus any shoot-offs. So basically 500 birds on Saturday and Sunday, sometimes they would have doubles event on Friday. Went to about 10-12 registered shoots a year. I went about 5 years that I only shot maybe 300-400 birds the entire year until I started shooting again with a friend a couple years ago and bumped it up dramatically to a few thousand a year. I find now that I much prefer 20 gauge and 28 gauge or super light 12 gauge shells. Recoil is cumulative, but it can also be gotten used to, almost like a callus on the shoulder. Didn't bother me near as much when I was younger and shot more.

 

[SteadyD]

And yet, there are women and children who shoot Trap, Skeet, and Sporting Clays who are much smaller than you, and shoot sometimes hundreds of rounds a day. I grew up working on a Trap range. The manager's daughter was just over 5 feet tall, 100 lbs. soaking wet, and shot an average of 100 shots (4 rounds of Trap) a day. Recoil never bothered her.

What's lost here is the correct training technique. That girl's father taught both her and I how to correctly mount a shotgun to the shoulder to both shoot better and minimize recoil. I spent the first hour after he showed me that mounting and remounting the shotgun under his watchful eye, until it became muscle memory. 40 years later, it still is. I try to pass it on as a 4-H leader, but since I don't have the time there to watch them do it for an hour, I have them do it for a couple minutes, then encourage them to continue at home if possible. (Yes, I include instructions to be triple-sure the gun is unloaded, and they all get the Four Rules at every shot)

Most assuredly true. Much like my interest in snubs kept me practicing to use proper technique, an interest in shotguns would lead another to keep at it.

 

[SteadyD]

We are opposites SteadyD. I'm a long gun person and am not really into handguns though I have ten or so. There is an exception and that is late model Cobras and Detecive Specials. I have no idea why. Have one of each and silly as it sounds writing it, I sometimes take them out of the safe just because I love looking at them.

Doesn't sound silly to me. Short barrel revolvers are a thing of beauty!

 

[1911 guy]

3 1/2 inch loads were developed to compensate for the lower density of steel shot compared to lead. more pellets, same weight, weight required to get a consistent burn of the powder. If you're not shooting steel, you don't need a 3 1/2 inch shotgun shell. Once they were developed, manufacturers looked for reasons to offer more loadings. That's why we have 3 1/2 inch 12 gauge turkey loads when a 20 gauge will kill turkeys just fine.