Bcwitt
Member
I've had Wolf x39s marked made in Ukraine.
Is Russian Ammo getting Worse?
- Thread starter wmgeorge
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Ignition Override
Member
Slamfire: about a different test of the .223/5.56 round's 'real world' effectiveness.
Didn't "The Gun" by C.J. Chivers (a former USMC infantry captain, now a NY Times writer) include a short description of a grisly test where Human Heads were procured, and impacts by the 7.62x39 and the .223 bullets were compared?
IIRC, the results were locked away in a drawer. This may appear over-the-top (so be it), however plenty of discussions on THR covered various rounds' effects on the human body.
Author Chivers has received quite a number of awards for journalistic research and reporting, and shared an international Pulitzer Prize.
Didn't "The Gun" by C.J. Chivers (a former USMC infantry captain, now a NY Times writer) include a short description of a grisly test where Human Heads were procured, and impacts by the 7.62x39 and the .223 bullets were compared?
IIRC, the results were locked away in a drawer. This may appear over-the-top (so be it), however plenty of discussions on THR covered various rounds' effects on the human body.
Author Chivers has received quite a number of awards for journalistic research and reporting, and shared an international Pulitzer Prize.
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rbernie
Contributing Member
No, it’s always been pretty much lower
quality ammo, in line with its lower cost. You’re just in a position to notice it now, for any number of possible reasons.
Glockula
Member
I have had mixed results with com bloc ammo. It had always performed well in guns it was made to shoot in like my CZ 82 and SKS. My CETME loved steel as well.
Barnaul has performed admirably across the board in my weapons. Tulamo and Wolf have been the consistently worst performing ammunition I have used. A 50 round box of Wolf .40 SW was the so dirty it started jamming my G23 after 40 rounds. Never had that happen before or since. The gun was filthy after that range session.
After that I decided to save the Wolf for the SKS. It doesn't mind one bit.
Barnaul has performed admirably across the board in my weapons. Tulamo and Wolf have been the consistently worst performing ammunition I have used. A 50 round box of Wolf .40 SW was the so dirty it started jamming my G23 after 40 rounds. Never had that happen before or since. The gun was filthy after that range session.
After that I decided to save the Wolf for the SKS. It doesn't mind one bit.
My memory is that those tests were conducted after the rifle was fielded. By then, what the bullet did or did not do was not going to make a difference on what was issued. The M14 program had been canceled and once something is out there, the forces against change and changes are huge.
There are still plenty of arguments about the lethality of the current 5.56 round.
Is There a Problem with the Lethality of the 5.56 NATO Caliber?
http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/is-there-a-problem-with-the-lethality-of-the-5-56-nato-caliber/
Testing The Army’s M855A1 Standard Ball Cartridge
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/testing-the-army-s-m855a1-standard-ball-cartridge/
New rifle, bigger bullets: Inside the Army's plan to ditch the M4 and 5.56
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your...ide-the-army-s-plan-to-ditch-the-m4-and-5-56/
It all went to hell in a handbasket when they went away from pumpkin balls.
Ballistic gelatine tests of the M 1867/77 Werndl rifle
Lorenz bullet vs .58 Minié test in ballistic gelatine
Round ball vs cut lead - gelatine tests, accuracy, ballistics, historical background
19th century roundball vs 7,62x39 ammo in ballistic gelatine
Ballistic gelatine test of muzzleloading lead bullets vs modern 8x57 JRS hunting ammo.
Mannlicher M95 8x50R rifle ballistic gelatine tests
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXAQOq-ScNA
Remington 45-70 tests in ballistic gelatine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-0XtRfwZPg
Shooting the Swiss Model 1851 Feldstutzer rifle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMBfUxmXK1c&list=PLIGg3pcPWcaJltGCC98OKAWsvPVALUp8Z
45/70 Sharps gelatine tests
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCpSmYmPKxs
Ignition Override
Member
Slamfire: that’s an excellent “grouping” of videos!
Aside from the bullett debates between those cartridges, despite the extra weight of the M-14 (also the ammo) VS the M-16, the unused potential of the M-14 for our soldiers must have been huge, regarding both reliability and penetration of various types of cover.
Aside from the bullett debates between those cartridges, despite the extra weight of the M-14 (also the ammo) VS the M-16, the unused potential of the M-14 for our soldiers must have been huge, regarding both reliability and penetration of various types of cover.
I can't mortar at the range, so I have a screw driver that fits between the upper and the bolt carrier, and I can usually pry. This is more an issue for reloaded round that were too long, but it may be worth it if you keep the steel case.
Of course the Wolf cases from 15 years ago were much, much worse, and that may not work for them.
With one jam I wouldn't worry.
Of course the Wolf cases from 15 years ago were much, much worse, and that may not work for them.
With one jam I wouldn't worry.
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wmgeorge
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One jam in 30 years I could not clear, not really a bad record.
Being of the right age and pulling a lot of Highpower Rifle targets with Vietnam veterans, feelings about the M16 depend on when the solider received the weapon. Early M16's were jammatics and the guys who got them did not like them for their unreliability. But, the guys, 1968 on-wards, did not have strong feelings for the M14 or the M16. It was just another thing they were given and had to lug around. One bud did say, the combat load with an M16 was 400 rounds, but it was 200 rounds for the M14. And he had shot 400 rounds in a day, and preferred the more bullets options.
It was very discouraging to talk to Marine MSgt Polk about the value of NRA Highpower. MSgt Polk was a veteran of the Korean and Vietnam War. MSgt Polk had a trained combat dog and was assigned to protect an Army unit in Vietnam. The Army unit commander walked over a bobby trap that killed himself and severely wounded MSgt Polk! MSgt Polk had been there and done that, and thought NRA Highpower was of little or no use in combat because you fired at tree lines or shrubbery. It was extreme rare for Vietnam grunts to see VC or NVA living or dead. The Vietnamese carried their dead off, and blood trails were more common to find than dead Vietnamese. They received incoming from tree lines and heavy foliage, and they fired back at tree lines and foliage without ever seeing how the target reacted. So, they seldom saw the extra penetration, or needed the extra range, of the M14. And once the major problems of the M16 were fixed, it was just another gun.
This was a war story I was told. A Vietnam veteran saw a Vietnamese man, encased in bamboo armor, and carrying a bamboo spear, attack American's manning a M60. The spear carrying man got one American before the machine gun finished him off. That was one brave and determined individual. Before he charged, he knew he was going to die, and was only concerned in killing as many Americans as he could, with his spear, before he died. Determined individuals are hard to kill.
A bud, his son was a battalion scout sniper in Iraqi. Son was not impressed with the M4, said Iraqi's shot with it "did not stay down". But Iraqi's shot with a scope M14 did. Different war, and different observations.
Without reading every post, I will say I'm reading a lot of peoples imaginations, and internet ideas.
The issue with steel case US calibers, especially .223 has long been figured out.
Russian produced ammunition ran lower pressures than needed to fully obturate a steel case. Combustion products from the powder blew into the chamber over the unobturated steel case, and created a glue like substance. -Just that, no confusion, speculating, or theory needed.
This is VERY easily proven. Many put oil on their cases to lube/seal. This works. Its not perfect, but it helps.
PROOF of this theory is actually very easy. Find a reloader if you don't. Pull bullets from steel case ammo, load with a normal starting load, and use the same bullet. No more issues. A 50K load will easy obturate a .223 steel case. I don't know what the Russian stuff was pressure wise, but I DO know velocity ranged in the 26-2700 range. While pressure and velocity do not necessarily corelate directly, one can assume from a %15-20 drop in velocity that pressure has dropped.
Around 2015 or so I chrono'd some current steel .223. It ran over 3K. It also didn't jam.
Anyway, the Soviet 7.62x39 ran an extremely tapered case. What is important about that is that a heavily tapered case will loose all resistance immediately following primary extraction. The US never liked this idea as there are disadvantages. There are advantages too. But ultimately, comparing the engineering consideration of Tapered cases with straight cases is something worth doing, as long as its with people who understand how it actually works.
long story short, if the pressure is in the normal 50-60K for 5.56, you'll probably be fine with steel.
If the importer -As many have said, Wolf is not a manufacturer) has switched to a 40-50K load, you may have lots of issues. My observation is that .223 and undersize 5.56 chambers do okay with it. Probably why so many Mini-14 people like it.
For the manufacturer, the person setting specs usually ignores finial product control limits, in favor of safety margins. Its SOOOoooo.... much cheaper. So they order 4,000,000 rounds, and say "it has to reach 2700 fps, 10 feet from the muzzle form a 16" 1/9 barrel. It has to shoot 4MOA from a bench test rifle. It has to stay below 60K PSI".
No need to say minimum pressure -low pressure never blew up a rifle. But, it has jammed many.
But to address your issue, I mentioned a screw driver will fit between the upper and bolt carrier. Usually works if you can open the action.
The issue with steel case US calibers, especially .223 has long been figured out.
Russian produced ammunition ran lower pressures than needed to fully obturate a steel case. Combustion products from the powder blew into the chamber over the unobturated steel case, and created a glue like substance. -Just that, no confusion, speculating, or theory needed.
This is VERY easily proven. Many put oil on their cases to lube/seal. This works. Its not perfect, but it helps.
PROOF of this theory is actually very easy. Find a reloader if you don't. Pull bullets from steel case ammo, load with a normal starting load, and use the same bullet. No more issues. A 50K load will easy obturate a .223 steel case. I don't know what the Russian stuff was pressure wise, but I DO know velocity ranged in the 26-2700 range. While pressure and velocity do not necessarily corelate directly, one can assume from a %15-20 drop in velocity that pressure has dropped.
Around 2015 or so I chrono'd some current steel .223. It ran over 3K. It also didn't jam.
Anyway, the Soviet 7.62x39 ran an extremely tapered case. What is important about that is that a heavily tapered case will loose all resistance immediately following primary extraction. The US never liked this idea as there are disadvantages. There are advantages too. But ultimately, comparing the engineering consideration of Tapered cases with straight cases is something worth doing, as long as its with people who understand how it actually works.
long story short, if the pressure is in the normal 50-60K for 5.56, you'll probably be fine with steel.
If the importer -As many have said, Wolf is not a manufacturer) has switched to a 40-50K load, you may have lots of issues. My observation is that .223 and undersize 5.56 chambers do okay with it. Probably why so many Mini-14 people like it.
For the manufacturer, the person setting specs usually ignores finial product control limits, in favor of safety margins. Its SOOOoooo.... much cheaper. So they order 4,000,000 rounds, and say "it has to reach 2700 fps, 10 feet from the muzzle form a 16" 1/9 barrel. It has to shoot 4MOA from a bench test rifle. It has to stay below 60K PSI".
No need to say minimum pressure -low pressure never blew up a rifle. But, it has jammed many.
But to address your issue, I mentioned a screw driver will fit between the upper and bolt carrier. Usually works if you can open the action.
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