Is the damage to society from guns worth the freedom to have guns?

[gym]

If you like those places then you should probably go live in one of them. This isn't Canada or Japan. We have our own culture here. Those who don't like it are welcome to leave.

 

[gym]

You are just wasting your breath and our time, why not go someware where your way is welcomed. You don't go into a fish store for meat.

 

[General Geoff]

I think Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia and New Zealand provide models that demonstrate how fewer guns mean fewer dead.

Correlation does not equal causation.

Many millions of people died long before the invention of firearms. Many millions of people will die long after firearms are obsolete. Firearms just happen to be the preferred tool of lethal violence between humans, and currently are the most effective method of immediately stopping a person who is a threat to one's physical well-being.

Guns cannot be uninvented, they will always exist in society until they become obsolete. Make no mistake, even if there is a complete and effective ban on civilian ownership of firearms, the governments of the world will still arm their agents, be they soldiers, police, spies, etc.

The only difference then will be that governments will dispense all the violence and will be beyond reproach by any of their subjects. Considering the tens of millions of people murdered by their governments just in the 20th century alone, they should be disarmed, not private citizens.

 

[rcmodel]

Guns?
Not nearly as large a part as peer pressure, two known parents, the related parental guidance, and human mentality sadly missing in some segments of the U.S. population.

When I grew up 60+ years ago, disagreements between teens were settled in a glaring, posturing & shoving match at the least, or a fist fight and a bloody nose at most.

Today, somebody disses somebody's perceived manliness, girlfriend/baby momma of the moment, or steps on someones Nike shoes, and the Glocks come out to Kill'm All!

No concern, no conscience, no right from wrong, and no remorse.
Not even for killing little babys and old grandmothers setting on the porch up the street.

That lack of respect for human life, or fellow man, is not going to be cured until the underlaying causes are cured.

And at this point in time, in the current have & have not, over-populated, no chance anyway, drug culture inner-city world?
I don't see that ever happening in our lifetime.

It's so far out of control now there will be no turning it back.

rc

 

[citizenzen]

Correlation does not equal causation.

But it does indicate a relationship that may exist. And the countries I listed are evidence that greatly reducing the number of guns in circulation would reduce the number of civilian death and injury

Guns cannot be uninvented, they will always exist in society until they become obsolete. Make no mistake, even if there is a complete and effective ban on civilian ownership of firearms, the governments of the world will still arm their agents, be they soldiers, police, spies, etc.

I'm actually pretty sure that obsolescence is the only solution here too. The U.S. simply has too many people who fervently believe in owning guns. It's not as if I expect my philosophy to prevail. Guns are too engrained in our culture. So I suspect you are right, and that guns will have to be replaced by something new.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I think Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia and New Zealand provide models that demonstrate how fewer guns mean fewer dead....

However, there is evidence that some of these countries with strict gun laws have been experiencing a significant increas in violent crime, while such has been decreasing in the United States.

For example:

• See this article regarding violent crime in Great Britain.
  
  
• This paper also describes higher and rising crime rates in Europe compared with the United States.
  
  
• The Crime Victimization Survey conducted by the University of Leiden in The Netherlands shows overall violent crime rates in the United States well below those of some of the European countries with the stricter gun laws you favor.
  
  
• The study Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and Wales, 1981-96 conducted by the US Bureaus of Justice Statistics shows decline rates of violent crime in England while the rates in the U. S. are falling.
  
  
• For an excellent study of the rise in violent crime, and the erosion of gun and self defense rights in Great Britain see, Guns and Violence, the English Experience by Joyce Lee Malcolm (Harvard University Press, 2002). It's well worth reading.
  
  
• And here's an interesting article co-authored by well known and respected Second Amendment scholar, David Kopple, on that subject.

 

[General Geoff]

But it does indicate a relationship that may exist.

The key word here is "may." Not "does".

And the countries I listed are evidence that greatly reducing the number of guns in circulation would reduce the number of civilian death and injury

They are evidence of no such thing. By that logic, pirates prevent global warming.

 

[pockets]

LIFE IS NOT SAFE.......PERIOD.
The concept that any government can make any aspect of life 'safe for everyone' by legislation is ludicrous.

.

 

[citizenzen]

The key word here is "may." Not "does".

And to be fair you need to add ... Not "does not".

However, there is evidence that some of these countries with strict gun laws have been experiencing a significant increas in violent crime, while such has been decreasing in the United States.

Do you see the problem here?

People are trying to tell me that a high number of guns doesn't necessarily cause the higher number of gun deaths. (correlation doesn't equal causation, pirates prevent global warming)

Then you come along and try to convince me that the lack of guns causes a rise in crime.

It seems members here want to deny the connection when it works against their argument, while being all too eager to make the connection when it works for it.

Just an observation.

The concept that any government can make any aspect of life 'safe for everyone' by legislation is ludicrous.

Food safety.

Water safety.

Workplace safety.

These are a few aspects of our life that have been made safer through government legislation.

 

[larryflew]

All way too typical. Teenagers roaring through town in a 30 mph zone at 90 mph cause the speed limit to be changed to 20 mph. Only change is making legal drivers drive slower. Doesn't affect the criminals at all.

 

[JackBurtonJr]

They make it easier for potential victims to kill the person attempting to murder them.

They make it easier for a motley collection of citizens to kill an invading horde.

Good.

It would seem to make sense, then, for them to be standard equipment for everyone. Hell, forks are standard equipment. Virtually everyone has several. Even the fork abusers.

I understand that there will always be people who abuse their forks. They have the freedom to fail. It is not for others to force them to eat right, nor to eat less. That's what freedom is about. You're free to get it right, and free to get it wrong.

We don't do "prior restraint."

That's not freedom.

We prosecute and penalize actual acts, not the imaginings of the worried.

And when we do penalize the imaginings of the worried, we perpetrate gross injustice.

Pretty much a restatement of my original article, eh.

 

[Tommygunn]

Guns are like forks in that they are a utensil too ... a killing utensil ... they make it easier for humans to kill one another.

I hope that helps to explain it more clearly.

I've heard that before. Given history and how bloody human history is I have a hard time believing that guns "make it easier for humans to kill one another."
I recall reading of an incident in London where a man ran through Harrod's (a large very well known department store) with a knife and stabbed eighteen people. He seemed to have no trouble killing people.
It's true that guns allow to kill from a distance, but then so do bow and arrow, crossbolt, catapult, trebuchet, Greek Fire, and other similar weapons.
In terms of personal ease, it's mind set. Most normal people find killing people abhorent. But there are sociopaths who just don't care. The only time I can imagine myself killing someone is if I had to in an act of self defense. In such an event I would be trying to put a stop to the violence for my own survival. If the assailant died I'd feel bad but I think I'd get over it. Oh, and I think if I was in war I could too....but the odds of that happening to me are astronomically against it occuring.

And I also should say I think you're misunderstanding that quote...perhaps it was misquoted to you. Forks make it easier to eat than without them, but they don't cause anything. "Cause" being the operative word. Guns don't "cause," they, like forks are only a tool. People would still kill sans guns and we would still eat without forks.

 

[JagerRanger]

[snip]

Because, let us not pretend otherwise, guns are lethal force. They are the equalizer. They are lethal force in the hands of people who are otherwise "criminals' prey and the tyrants' playthings."

People tend to forget that simple fact.

I once attended a CCW class where a 100 lbs waitress were attempting to get her carry license certificate. She had never shot a firearm before, so the qualification test was a huge hurdle for her. Anyways, she 'passed.'

I offered to give her free instruction, and learned that she was working in the bad part of the city and left work in early hours and had been attacked several times. Finally she decided enough is enough.

I bet there exists tens of thousands like her.

 

[JagerRanger]

I think Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia and New Zealand provide models that demonstrate how fewer guns mean fewer dead.

I've lived in every one of those countries and most of Europe. I must respectfully say you don't know much about the allegation you're suggesting as a fact.

For example, the Swiss, Norwegians, Finns, and Kiwis posses the most guns after US and ... I guess Yemen <deleted>. The number of murders in Norway used to be 8. In Switzerland it was about 50, and that included homicides committed by foreigners.

You can shower Japan with full-auto M-16s and nothing will happen. A Japanese finds a coin in the street and wastes a couple hours at the police stations to report it.

Trust me on this, America is totally unique country that cannot be compared to any other nation in the world, at least as it comes to guns.

 

[JagerRanger]

Guns?
Not nearly as large a part as peer pressure, two known parents, the related parental guidance, and human mentality sadly missing in some segments of the U.S. population.

When I grew up 60+ years ago, disagreements between teens were settled in a glaring, posturing & shoving match at the least, or a fist fight and a bloody nose at most.

Today, somebody disses somebody's perceived manliness, girlfriend/baby momma of the moment, or steps on someones Nike shoes, and the Glocks come out to Kill'm All!

No concern, no conscience, no right from wrong, and no remorse.
Not even for killing little babys and old grandmothers setting on the porch up the street.

That lack of respect for human life, or fellow man, is not going to be cured until the underlaying causes are cured.

And at this point in time, in the current have & have not, over-populated, no chance anyway, drug culture inner-city world?
I don't see that ever happening in our lifetime.

It's so far out of control now there will be no turning it back.

rc

Life used to be simple and fun. Sad.

Stay safe.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Then you come along and try to convince me that the lack of guns causes a rise in crime.

It seems members here want to deny the connection when it works against their argument, while being all too eager to make the connection when it works for it....

The difference is that there is additional evidence suggesting that availability of guns to, and in the hands of, private citizens does prevent/reduce crime.

• Here Art Eatman recommended you read Under The Gun by Wright/Rossi/Daly (University of Florida Press, 1985). The authors describe, among other things, interviews with criminal who stated that they at times decided not to commit a particular crime because of fear that the chosen victim might be armed.
  
  
• Firearms are in fact used by ordinary people to prevent violent crime. A number of studies have been done over the years attempting to quantify that. While there continue to be questions concerning some of those studies, by any measure the number of defensive gun uses (DGU) in the United States appears to be significant.
  
  
• Citations to reports in the media of DGU by private citizens are available online here, here (scroll down about 2/3rds of the page), here, here and here. There may be other sources as well.

To be sure, there are most likely a variety of causes for various changes in crime rates. But for each DGU, there is a crime that was not committed and a person who avoided being a victim.

 

[1911Tuner]

I can't talk statisticspeak, and the per capita crime rates in big cities don't concern me a lot. I do know that...in this backwoods bucolic area...everybody has guns. Everybody's kids have guns. Most have multiple guns. Gunfire in the middle of the day doesn't raise an eyebrow, and it happens pretty often. We figure it's old Farmer Brown wingin' shots at a 'Yote or puttin' an old, crippled dog down or a buncha good ol' boys havin' at some tin cans after church on Sunday afternoon.

I've also noted the lack of serious crime in the area, and most people don't even bother to lock their doors at night about half the time. A little teenage vandalism on occasion...usually because Joe Bob snaked Jimmy Ray's girlfriend at the high school pep rally last Friday night...or maybe a fistfight here and there. That's about it.

Now, we've got crime aplenty in town. We've got gangs in town, but those people don't come out here startin' any foolishness. They don't come out here because they know that all us country folk got us a shotgun, a rifle, and an old forty five...and it you go ask'em they'll tell you that's why they don't come out here.

I don't know how that plays into the liberal view or your stastics, but there it is.

 

[gym]

I have to tell you guys this "blocking people mode" thing is great, now I can concentrate on my fellow members who come here to speak of guns, not stir up trouble, try it I no longer see anything this citizen guy posts. It's not as if i am missing anyting. What he fails to realize is that there are a cross section of the people who are criminals, "for a living". I gew up with many. Known as "wise guys" they are far from wise, but will try just about anyting if they think that no one will stop them. I was once asked, "even with my connections on both sides", George what would you do if I came up to you when you were making your deposit and tried to rob you. I calmly looked him in the eyes and and said ,"I would shoot you dead where you stood".
It didn't faze him as he continued, "sometimes they make it like a half joke", you know I would have a gun and maybe a friend, annswered yes but you know you won't walk away, and I have more than 1 friend, "i used to make drops with an overwatch of either 2 armed guys of a police escort".
he then said well that's why no one tried so far, they know you would shoot them and that you are pretty good with that thing. We talked for a while and he shook my hand and left. i saw him one or two times after that, and not since in 30 years, they always test you, even if they bought you a drink in the local bar last night.
He owned chop shops in BKLYN. went by the nikname "Gears". He wasn't kidding, just testing, when you do business in a neighboorhood for over 20 years, you find out who does what and who to watch out for. Early on I was adopted by a very powerful man who became like a big brother to me.
I know a lot of guys here aren't from NyC, but it was quite common in the 60's-through the 80's for someone to walk in to a sucessful "cash business" and ask for the boss, Then announce to you that they were now your new partner. This is not folklore, it's true, ask friends of cops who were in business back then in the cities like NY, NJ, Chicago, it was very common.I was lucky and knew both sides, so they always figured I was more trouble than I was worth, but every year or two, some wise guys son, trying to get a racket going would try to strong arm me. I would just write down a phone number and hand it to them, that was enough, they would come back and apologise, even offer you a drink or lunch.But if you didn't stand up to them, You were now in their pocket. And you paid or they put you out of business, so a gun always was a way to help insure that one night when you locked up and walked to the lot to get your car, that you didn't have an accident.
My friend Freddy a NYC dective once said with a laugh, hey another "for no apparent reason shooting", the guy was crossing Main street and for no apparent reason somone shot him in the head 21 times.
There is always a reason, no one shoots someone for no reason. You may never find out why, but I gaurantee you smeone had a reason.

 

[citizenzen]

I have to tell you guys this "blocking people mode" thing is great, now I can concentrate on my fellow members who come here to speak of guns, not stir up trouble, try it I no longer see anything this citizen guy posts.

I'm on your ignore list simply because I have a different opinion that you?

If that's how you roll ... that's how you roll.

Personally, I find echo chambers boring and find the discussions that are most interesting are the ones with a variety of viewpoints.

I'm not here to change anybody's mind. I'm not here to "win". I'm here to share. And if you don't feel like sharing ... well ... it's no skin off my back.

And I also should say I think you're misunderstanding that quote...perhaps it was misquoted to you. Forks make it easier to eat than without them, but they don't cause anything. "Cause" being the operative word. Guns don't "cause," they, like forks are only a tool. People would still kill sans guns and we would still eat without forks.

Let me make it perfectly clear: guns don't cause people to do anything. That is always the choice of the person. But that is pretty much true of anything. Most of us allow objects, circumstances, other people to influence our behavior. But our choices are always our own.

 

[citizenzen]

Frank Ettin,

This paper also describes higher and rising crime rates in Europe compared with the United States.

That paper attributes the fall in crime in the U.S. to the increase in prison population (highest in the world, BTW), the legalization of abortion, the increase in the number of police forces, and the vanishing of the crack epidemic of the 1980s.

The paper says nothing about guns playing a role.

The Crime Victimization Survey conducted by the University of Leiden in The Netherlands shows overall violent crime rates in the United States well below those of some of the European countries with the stricter gun laws you favor.

You don't know this about me yet, but I'll never quote the Huffington Post. I take pains to ensure that my sources are reputable. And I'm afraid that World Net Daily doesn't meet that standard. I'll see if I can find that survey and go from there.

 

[Millwright]

Just a thought, but we kill some 40K annually with motor vehicles, yet no one seems in a snit to get rid of them ! >MW

 

[Frank Ettin]

Frank Ettin,

This paper also describes higher and rising crime rates in Europe compared with the United States.

That paper attributes the fall in crime in the U.S. to the increase in prison population (highest in the world, BTW), the legalization of abortion, the increase in the number of police forces, and the vanishing of the crack epidemic of the 1980s.

The paper says nothing about guns playing a role.

Nor did I claim it or the University of Leiden study did. What both show is the crime rates are rising in gun restricted Europe while an increasing number of guns in private hands doesn't correlate to an increasing crime rate in the U. S.

However, see my post 140.

 

[citizenzen]

Just a thought, but we kill some 40K annually with motor vehicles, yet no one seems in a snit to get rid of them ! >MW

I see this as a matter of utility and value. Think about how you, your community, state and nation depend on motor vehicles. They are a vital daily component of our lives. Our economy, our world would be quite different without them.

And for all the trillions of miles driven every year we accept ~40,000 deaths.

Guns, most of which sit for days, months or years locked (hopefully) away, are the cause of death for ~30,000.

To me it's not even close how these two compare. Lose every motor vehicle and our world stops. Lose every gun, and what changes?

 

[citizenzen]

Frank ... a forum question. How long until I get to wear big-boy pants and get a quote button?

Nor did I claim it or the University of Leiden study did. What both show is the crime rates are rising in gun restricted Europe while an increasing number of guns in private hands doesn't correlate to an increasing crime rate in the U.S.

But the aspect that I find curious is that (at least in the literature I've seen so far) none of your sources has attributed this change to firearms.

They mention numerous possible causes: our world-leading prison population, abortion, increased police. Don't you think these people are smart enough or capable of admitting guns played a part in this trend?

 

[JackBurtonJr]

I see this as a matter of utility and value. Think about how you, your community, state and nation depend on motor vehicles. They are a vital daily component of our lives. Our economy, our world would be quite different without them.

And for all the trillions of miles driven every year we accept ~40,000 deaths.

Guns, most of which sit for days, months or years locked (hopefully) away, are the cause of death for ~30,000.

To me it's not even close how these two compare. Lose every motor vehicle and our world stops. Lose every gun, and what changes?

My life certainly would have changed.

I wouldn't have come home one day if my gun was not with me. And that, my friend, is why the gun control movement is losing steam. More and more people are beginning to realize just what those who would disarm them are asking. Ask my wife if she would choose between your false utopia and me coming home to the family.

No one likes being vulnerable. No one likes other people demanding that they become vulnerable. Once the general population figured out just what the gun control movement wants the only way open to you guys was straight downhill.