Is the gas system the reason for bad accuracy?

[N555]

I'm pretty much in the process of destroying my old mini14 barrel. Before I do maybe I can have some more fun with it. I cut it down to 16 and an eighth to compare accuracy to 18.5 inches.
After the 16 vs 18 test is done I'm thinking ram a bullet down the bore where the gas port is to use as a heat sink and as a support then plug weld the gas port with the mig welder. Dont forget to hammer the bullet the rest of the way out when I'm done. Then no more gas system. Just to see how it shoots.
Then I figure I'll shoot 2 tests one where I pull the charging handle back real swiftly and let it go as if the gas system is still cycling the gun and another test where I pull back and ride the charging handle nice and easy, as if it were any other repeater.
Then that will tell me is the piston hammering on the gas block causing flyers, strings and a zero that's more of a suggestion or is the momentum of the gas moving through the gas system throwing things off or some combination of all.

 

[Holescreek]

Gas systems always give dodgy results. Barrel whip on a PSL goes away with the gas port blocked.

 

[N555]

Yes that's the plan, next time I can get out to the shooting range I'll be shooting the mini14 in normal semiauto mode.
I have to take it all the way apart to include removing the barrel so I can ram a bullet down the barrel to the gas port so I can weld over the gas port, then put it all back together again. Minus the bullet by the gas port.

 

[Demi-human]

I said no, but eagerly await your results.
I have no Mini, but am dissolved of any issues with gas systems and accuracy with an AR. It doesn’t make a big enough difference to make a difference.

On a Mini though? I have not even an inkling. Maybe your test can give me one whole ink.

I don’t think it’s the gas…

 

[LoonWulf]

So are you removing the gas block completely after plugging the port?
If not, I'll be curious how that affected the accuracy also......

 

[someguy2800]

I don't think it will make a difference unless you also remove the operating rod

 

[N555]

I don't know about removing the gas block.
I definitely need the op rod to move the bolt.
Don't know why the momentum of gas would throw off a mini14 more than any other 10 inch gas system. I'm thinking it's more to do with the slamming of the piston on the gas block.

 

[Reloadron]

I went with not enough difference and here is why. Using my M1A NM rifle I noticed no difference in accuracy shooting off a Wichita Rest Owl Ear Front and Bunny Ear Bag rear. Ten shot groups and no difference at all in accuracy, velocity or difference in ejected cartridges size. Gas on or off nothing changed not even muzzle velocity over an Oehler 35P. While I can't speak for Ruger Mini I can say on my M1A it made no difference. My ammo for that was Federal Gold Medal Match but I would likely see the same results with my hand loads or any other factory ammunition. The object of my curiosity was the claims that with gas on or off the measured distance from case head to the 0.400" datum on case neck would change. It didn't they went in at 1.630" and all came out at 1.632".

Ron

 

[LoonWulf]

I don't know about removing the gas block.
I definitely need the op rod to move the bolt.
Don't know why the momentum of gas would throw off a mini14 more than any other 10 inch gas system. I'm thinking it's more to do with the slamming of the piston on the gas block.

My thought is that one of the issues of the mini-14, Is that big ass chunk of weight attached right to the middle of the barrel. My thinking is based on that 7400s and Browning BARs have a very similar operating rod hung under the barrel but usually produce better accuracy than the minis do....



With my mini reducing the gas port size made the gun far less violent, but didn't really do anything for accuracy until I re-centered and torqued the gas block.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Defying all logic, my piston AR is the most accurate of all my .223s, so I said no.

 

[LoonWulf]

https://www.gunmart.net/gun-reviews/firearms/rifles/ruger-mini-14-accuracy-improvements One of those things that just popped into my head... Ruger produced some minis for the UK market that were straight pull

 

[N555]

Yeah I think 14 to 15 inches is a much better place to put a gas system than at 10 inches.

 

[N555]

https://www.gunmart.net/gun-reviews/firearms/rifles/ruger-mini-14-accuracy-improvements One of those things that just popped into my head... Ruger produced some minis for the UK market that were straight pull

I think I am going to leave it at that. The straight pull mini14GB had no accuracy advantage over the semiauto.

Again, a fatter barrel, shorter barrel and barrel strut seem to be the way.

I am already planning to get a barrel strut gas block, I have a fatter 580 barrel to put on and I'm cutting down the 580 barrel to 16 and a fraction. The new "580 barrel" is about 0.77" and the old "180 series" measures about 0.56''. Big difference.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I would say the Mini trigger is a bigger impediment to accuracy than the barrel and gas system per se....but youve already addressed that.

 

[Slamfire]

Look at how much work it takes to glass bed an M1a.



And, there is more to match tuning. It took years of experimentation before the critical accuracy aspects of building a match M1 or M14 were settled on. By the way, same for building a NM 1911.

Ruger made the Mini 14 to appeal to the WW2 and Korea War generation, who wanted something that was lightweight, reliable, and cheap. There may be someone who has figured out to accurize the Mini 14, but I don't know who that might be.

And I am sure there is someone who has turned the SKS into a match rifle. But, like the Mini 14, that rifle was designed, built, and issued as a service rifle where function, reliability, simplicity, productibility, were higher considerations than accuracy.

 

[Varminterror]

I would say the Mini [itself] is a bigger impediment to accuracy than the barrel and gas system per se...

Fixed it for you.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Fixed it for you.

Lol. My Minis shoot "minute-of-enemy," which I consider good enough for what I keep them for.

 

[LoonWulf]

LOL! I actually think both statements above are true about the min-14s
The gun WASNT designed for what I would call "good" accuracy, it was ment to be acceptably accurate, and for perforating stuff out to the range I find its peeps effective (no provisions for optics originally) I think they usually do just fine....Id guess the "average" mini upto the 580/581 series are 2-4moa guns, all of the ones ive seen are capable of that.
the 581 I had easily cut that in 1/2 and was plenty functional for taking game out to the edge of where I was comfortable with the 4x Nikon that rode on it, and the cartridge its self....still only about as good as my worst AR tho.

Again for what I NEED from a 16-18" .223, the Minis plenty accurate enough, which is why I will for sure own at least one more, maybe a couple if they ever do a .350Legend mini.... but IM not going to try turn one into a match rifle lol

 

[Ignition Override]

One general type of action is Not hindered by its gas system:

Roller-delayed blowback, ie MP5, HK/PTR-91, HK-33, C-93 etc. The bullet exits the barrel before the bolt begins to be pushed rearwards.

These were designed to avoid the typical accuracy issues caused by the systems of the SKS, AKM, maybe FAL etc.

The OP's very vague title seemed to imply that gas systems always affect accuracy.
The Bundeswehr's (German) Designated Marksmen might still be using modified HK G3 rifles.

 

[someguy2800]

LOL! I actually think both statements above are true about the min-14s
The gun WASNT designed for what I would call "good" accuracy, it was ment to be acceptably accurate, and for perforating stuff out to the range I find its peeps effective (no provisions for optics originally) I think they usually do just fine....Id guess the "average" mini upto the 580/581 series are 2-4moa guns, all of the ones ive seen are capable of that.
the 581 I had easily cut that in 1/2 and was plenty functional for taking game out to the edge of where I was comfortable with the 4x Nikon that rode on it, and the cartridge its self....still only about as good as my worst AR tho.

Again for what I NEED from a 16-18" .223, the Minis plenty accurate enough, which is why I will for sure own at least one more, maybe a couple if they ever do a .350Legend mini.... but IM not going to try turn one into a match rifle lol

As a nearly life long detractor of the mini, I would probably actually pony up my money to buy a 350 legend mini. I think that would be neat. Kind of a grown up M1 carbine.

 

[jmorris]

Oddly enough my friends Mini 14 is more accurate than my Ranch Rifle, even though the Ranch has better sights. The spring loaded ejector also places them into a nice pile within walking distance vs how far the mechanical ejector on the ranch chunks them.



These guys sell an adjustable gas block for them. Where I found the video above. https://www.mini14gasblock.com/

 

[Slamfire]

https://www.gunmart.net/gun-reviews/firearms/rifles/ruger-mini-14-accuracy-improvements One of those things that just popped into my head... Ruger produced some minis for the UK market that were straight pull

And there are straight pull AR's in the UK, from what I have read. The unfortunate shooters have to disable the gas system due to the laws of the country.

I did disable the gas system on my NM 308 Win Garand by punching out the tappet out of the gas cylinder lock screw. I did this at one range, and for that range. The long range firing line was on top of a 50 or 60 foot hill, and it was steep. Attempting to reclaim your fired brass was an experience in mountaineering, and falling was a real risk. And I ain't exactly a mountain goat either, I was always out of breath getting back to the top. What I found, was that it took a hard jank to open the bolt. Gas guns don't have long primary extraction cams, like a bolt rifle. Accuracy was the same at distance, might have been a slight zero change, but each and every match, there are slight zero changes due to position , temperature, wind.

 

[N555]

A turnoffable gas system would be nice to keep from losing my lapula match 223 brass.

 

[jmorris]

Most of us call that a bolt action.

 

[Demi-human]

A turnoffable gas system would be nice to keep from losing my lapula match 223 brass.

A Seekins adjustable gas block is only $60, and is completely closable. Their new throw-lever gas block is adjustable without tools and is a paltry $130.

Titanium SLRs are thirty five dollars off at RTB.com $170. I just bought one, they are beautiful!


And, I just remembered we aren’t talking about an AR.
Sorry @N555. I haven’t had coffee yet today…