Is the M1 Carbine a swell home defense gun?
- Thread starter Justin
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clint1911a1
Member
Why not an SAR-1
If it's a rifle you want for home defense, why not make it an SAR-1 (AK-47)? They're short (16" barrel), lightweight, and handy. The 7.62x39mm is quantum leaps ahead of the .30 carbine as far as ballistic performance goes (i.e. it packs nearly three times the energy, longer range, greater penetration, etc.). Thirty round AK mags feed reliably (a rarity in thirty round carbine mags). The AK rifle itself is way more reliable than the carbine. Finally, the price. Going rate for a military M-1 carbine is between $500 and $600 these days. You can pick up an SAR-1 for around $290-$330 now. A way better weapon all the way around for way less money. Makes sense to me anyway.
If it's a rifle you want for home defense, why not make it an SAR-1 (AK-47)? They're short (16" barrel), lightweight, and handy. The 7.62x39mm is quantum leaps ahead of the .30 carbine as far as ballistic performance goes (i.e. it packs nearly three times the energy, longer range, greater penetration, etc.). Thirty round AK mags feed reliably (a rarity in thirty round carbine mags). The AK rifle itself is way more reliable than the carbine. Finally, the price. Going rate for a military M-1 carbine is between $500 and $600 these days. You can pick up an SAR-1 for around $290-$330 now. A way better weapon all the way around for way less money. Makes sense to me anyway.
natedog
Member
.30 Carbine Military Specs:
1975 FPS
110 grain FMJ bullet =
952 FP energy at the muzzle
.30 Carbine Commercial Remington Express:
1990 FPS
110 grain soft point =
967 fp energy at the muzzle, or 600 fpe at 100 yards
.357 Magnum Cor-bon
1265 FPS
180 grain BCSP =
640 FPE at the muzzle
1975 FPS
110 grain FMJ bullet =
952 FP energy at the muzzle
.30 Carbine Commercial Remington Express:
1990 FPS
110 grain soft point =
967 fp energy at the muzzle, or 600 fpe at 100 yards
.357 Magnum Cor-bon
1265 FPS
180 grain BCSP =
640 FPE at the muzzle
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Sodbuster
Member
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/showphoto.php?photo=13316&papass=&sort=1&thecat=998
It's not an Ultimak, Justin, but it's interesting. BTW It's not mine.
It's not an Ultimak, Justin, but it's interesting. BTW It's not mine.
Kim du Toit
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- Feb 28, 2003
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- 11
I don't have my M1 ready for HD (handgun & shotgun), but I do have it stored in my grab 'n go bag for a SHTF piece -- softpoint ammo and all.
But I wouldn't say no to the M1 for HD -- ONE of those .30 Car bullets might not do the trick, but FOUR would surely end the discussion: and it's really easy to get four down the tube ASAP with the "non-recoiling" M1.
But I wouldn't say no to the M1 for HD -- ONE of those .30 Car bullets might not do the trick, but FOUR would surely end the discussion: and it's really easy to get four down the tube ASAP with the "non-recoiling" M1.
El Rojo
Member
Don't shoot a warning shot and use proper illumination is the simple answer. I shouldn't be blinded by the flash when I am illuminating the intruder with a flashlight or the lights are on or it is daylight. I will not be shooting dark objects in the house without proper identification. To do otherwise would be foolish to the extreme. If I do shoot, I should be on or I wouldn't be shooting. I think the odds of a center mass hit with my Remington 870 at the max distance of my house of 15 yards (maybe) are pretty good. As far as being disorientated by the sound, I find that to be difficult to acheive with the sound of an AR-15. A flashbang, yes, but the AR-15 is not a flashbang grenade.
Again, I don't understand the whole sound factor. Men in combat have never seemed to make a big deal about the sound of the Garand or AR-15. Sure it caused some hearing loss, but they lived through combat.
natedog
Not sure who you are referring to but let me point out what a handloader can do with a .357 HANDGUN using published load data put out by a major powder manufacturer.
http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/rg...=.357&cartridgedescr=Mag.&bulletdescr=110 JHP
They claim to get 2040 fps out of a 5.6" barreled revolver using a 110 grain bullet. I personally have never achieved that velocity. I only get about 1980 fps out of a 6 1/2" Ruger Blackhawk using that load. Never the less, I am shooting a 110 grain bullet (of larger diameter) out of a handgun at roughly the same speed as GI ball ammo out of a full sized .30 Carbine. My tests have shown that with my 16" barreled Marlin 1894C .357 carbine that I get anywhere from 150 to over 500 fps increase in velocity in the carbine over a 4" barreled .357 handgun when using the same loads. The lower numbers were with very fast burning powders. The big increases were seen with slow for caliber powders. Blue Dot is about in the middle of these burn rates. I have never choronoed a 110 grain bullet out of the carbine, but an educated guess would put that load around 300 fps faster out of the carbine than the pistol. So, I stand by my statement that the .30 Carbine using GI Ball ammo is about the same as a .357 handgun.
Not sure who you are referring to but let me point out what a handloader can do with a .357 HANDGUN using published load data put out by a major powder manufacturer.
http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/rg...=.357&cartridgedescr=Mag.&bulletdescr=110 JHP
They claim to get 2040 fps out of a 5.6" barreled revolver using a 110 grain bullet. I personally have never achieved that velocity. I only get about 1980 fps out of a 6 1/2" Ruger Blackhawk using that load. Never the less, I am shooting a 110 grain bullet (of larger diameter) out of a handgun at roughly the same speed as GI ball ammo out of a full sized .30 Carbine. My tests have shown that with my 16" barreled Marlin 1894C .357 carbine that I get anywhere from 150 to over 500 fps increase in velocity in the carbine over a 4" barreled .357 handgun when using the same loads. The lower numbers were with very fast burning powders. The big increases were seen with slow for caliber powders. Blue Dot is about in the middle of these burn rates. I have never choronoed a 110 grain bullet out of the carbine, but an educated guess would put that load around 300 fps faster out of the carbine than the pistol. So, I stand by my statement that the .30 Carbine using GI Ball ammo is about the same as a .357 handgun.
Sunray
Member
No rifle is good for home defense. The bullets tend to go through walls and in the heat of a high pucker factor situation accurate shooting if difficult unless you have several years training and experience. If you fire at a bad guy, miss and that bullet goes through your wall or window and hits somebody half a mile away, it's your fault. Forget about the rifle and use a pump shotgun loaded with buck shot.
Sven, what the hell is that? Carbines don't need all that aftermarket crappola. And a scope buggers up the balance.
Sven, what the hell is that? Carbines don't need all that aftermarket crappola. And a scope buggers up the balance.
Sven
Senior Member
Sunray: balance point is right at the magazine, feels great. To each their own!
El Rojo
Member
I beg to differ. Shooting a rifle at 15 yards max distance shouldn't be hard for anyone. Sure it might be a little more difficult to do it in high pucker situations, but to say it is difficult is quite a stretch. I don't have any real training and I definitely don't have any experience shooting burglars inside my home, but I think I can manage with the rifle.
Wildalaska
member
And thats the bottom line isnt it? All these endless deabtes, over and over and over again, whats the best SHTF rifle, What woould you use? etc all boil down to the same thin....
What do YOU like the best? What fits you the best? What do you shoot the best? Find it and practice, practice, practice.....
Who cares if a 357 has more energy than a 30 carbine? If yyou like the 30, have one and can shoot it well...go for it...you think some homebreaker isnt gonna be impressed when you pump 15 rounds into his chest at a range of 7 feet?
WildpracticeAlaska
"Who cares if a 357 has more energy than a 30 carbine?"
I do for one. Obviously other people do also. We get on here to discuss stuff like this; that is the point of a forum. Arguing over arcane ideas and numbers is what pulls a lot of gun people's chains. Talking about our hobby is just plain fun.
I am sure when the smoke clears we all pick and choose whatever we want, but on here it is all about discussing it just for the sake of discussion.
I have owned a .30 Carbine and enjoyed the heck out of it. It is yet another one of those foolish mistakes that I sold it. I would love to have another one, but the present prices have exceeded my desire to own one. I also currently own a Ruger Blackhawk chambered in .30 Carbine. I enjoy it also. I really enjoy discussing the features of various firearms and their cartridges and this one is no exception. I like to really know what they will do; factual information. I assume I am no exception, otherwise forums like this would cease to exist.
I do for one. Obviously other people do also. We get on here to discuss stuff like this; that is the point of a forum. Arguing over arcane ideas and numbers is what pulls a lot of gun people's chains. Talking about our hobby is just plain fun.
I am sure when the smoke clears we all pick and choose whatever we want, but on here it is all about discussing it just for the sake of discussion.
I have owned a .30 Carbine and enjoyed the heck out of it. It is yet another one of those foolish mistakes that I sold it. I would love to have another one, but the present prices have exceeded my desire to own one. I also currently own a Ruger Blackhawk chambered in .30 Carbine. I enjoy it also. I really enjoy discussing the features of various firearms and their cartridges and this one is no exception. I like to really know what they will do; factual information. I assume I am no exception, otherwise forums like this would cease to exist.
Yes.
"No rifle is good for home defense" Rubbish. If you have the advantage of being in your domicile, and need to use a weapon, you should grab a longarm. Sidearms are, by nature, reactive weapons that are only used by those who don't have access to longarms, which are more powerful, more accurate, and more easily controlled.
If you can't hit your target with a rifle, you can't hit it with a pistol, and so, should not be shooting at anything.
"No rifle is good for home defense" Rubbish. If you have the advantage of being in your domicile, and need to use a weapon, you should grab a longarm. Sidearms are, by nature, reactive weapons that are only used by those who don't have access to longarms, which are more powerful, more accurate, and more easily controlled.
If you can't hit your target with a rifle, you can't hit it with a pistol, and so, should not be shooting at anything.
OP
OP
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
That's what would be attractive about the M1 carbine. The round it fires is more from the realm of the pistol than from the rifle. Since it's slower than your average rifle round, but faster than your average pistol round, seems to me that would be a nice niche for a HD weapon. Plus, if you have problems handling a carbine or rifle in a defensive situation, you're going to definately have problems shooting accurately with a pistol, and a shotgun certainly wouldn't be much more likely to hit, either.
As for using a centerfire rifle round, .223, or 7.62x39, no way, Jose. I've seen pics of plate steel penetrated by frangible .223 rounds. (Rob would be able to offer more information regarding the particulars of the circumstances.)
Am I touting the M1 Carbine as the end-all, be-all weapon system for HD?
Nah. But it certainly does seem to fit a lot of the criteria very well.
Of course, in the end, you pays your money and you takes your chances with whatever weapon you choose. Nothing is 100% foolproof, nor is there any firearm that is the best choice for everyone in any given situation.
I am just kinda tossing this out there as food for thought.
subrosa999
Member
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- 1
M1 Carbine and HD
For those that think a .357 Magnum has twice the energy as a 30 Carbine, I suggest you check ballistics tables. The 30 carbine hits with close to a 1000lbs. of energy with a 110 gr bullet - at the muzzle. I know of no standard
.357 Magnum that generates that kind of energy.
For those that think a .357 Magnum has twice the energy as a 30 Carbine, I suggest you check ballistics tables. The 30 carbine hits with close to a 1000lbs. of energy with a 110 gr bullet - at the muzzle. I know of no standard
.357 Magnum that generates that kind of energy.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
I'd not lose the first moment's sleep over the idea of using a GI Carbine for self-defense in my home. It oughta be more effective up close and personal than it would have been when I was walking a guard post in Korea...
Handloads can make them more effective for defense, just like on coyotes.
Dunno why you can't hang a flashlight on one. You don't need somebody to make some fancy-shmancy mount. Get some balsa wood, do a tad of carving so the light is aligned, and use hose clamps. Or fold a handkerchief for padding and use duct tape. The silly gun won't care at all.
Handloads can make them more effective for defense, just like on coyotes.
Dunno why you can't hang a flashlight on one. You don't need somebody to make some fancy-shmancy mount. Get some balsa wood, do a tad of carving so the light is aligned, and use hose clamps. Or fold a handkerchief for padding and use duct tape. The silly gun won't care at all.
M2 Carbine
member
Yes.
Gator
Member
But is an M2 better?
An M1 Carbine with proper ammo is like a .357 on steroids and, while I like a shotgun for HD, I would feel comfortable with one bedside.
D'oh! Darn zombie threads...
An M1 Carbine with proper ammo is like a .357 on steroids and, while I like a shotgun for HD, I would feel comfortable with one bedside.
D'oh! Darn zombie threads...
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FMJMIKE
Member
An Inland M1 Carbine is my home defense weapon. It is under my bed waiting until called to duty. I know from personal experience that firing a .223/5.56 inside is disorienting. M1 Carbines are not nearly as loud. To each his own...
M2 Carbine
member
A fellow at work was talking about breaking into my place.
I told him I would empty the first magazine into his car so that he can't get away. Then I would see if I could get the whole second magazine into him before he hit the ground.
He decided that staying far away from my place would be a good idea.
Ignition Override
Member
Kim:
I've really enjoyed reading your info on a "certain website".
Justin:
My former brand-new (last October) Auto-Ord. Carbine's bolt got stuck after only two months, despite being well-treated, kept clean and oiled. Although the factory made it operate very well, I was so disappointed(became biased) overall about a gun which I had always liked and made the decision to sell the gun before it was even shipped back.
Purchased last October, it was the first gun I had ever bought (but then fell for Minis when it was in the factory and bought the 14 and 30, both used).
Have never used a real GI type. My former carbine is still in the store which bought it from me three months ago, with a high-cap. magazine (it looks really lonely and unwanted). Experienced gun owners say that the GI Carbine's action is more rugged.
Along with my other carbines, could easily imagine having an SKS so-called 'Paratrooper' for home defense with hollow-points.
Its x39 round, along with .223 (Mini 14 etc) is quite common, affordable and used by so many other reliable, durable guns (let's not forget Saigas).
I've really enjoyed reading your info on a "certain website".
Justin:
My former brand-new (last October) Auto-Ord. Carbine's bolt got stuck after only two months, despite being well-treated, kept clean and oiled. Although the factory made it operate very well, I was so disappointed
(became biased) overall about a gun which I had always liked and made the decision to sell the gun before it was even shipped back.Purchased last October, it was the first gun I had ever bought (but then fell for Minis when it was in the factory and bought the 14 and 30, both used).
Have never used a real GI type. My former carbine is still in the store which bought it from me three months ago, with a high-cap. magazine (it looks really lonely and unwanted). Experienced gun owners say that the GI Carbine's action is more rugged.
Along with my other carbines, could easily imagine having an SKS so-called 'Paratrooper' for home defense with hollow-points.
Its x39 round, along with .223 (Mini 14 etc) is quite common, affordable and used by so many other reliable, durable guns (let's not forget Saigas).
I was issued one in the service , Loved it. I had good results
up 75 yards.Little tighter aim needed for 100 or so. I also had one when I was again a civilian . No kick to worry about easy to carry (miles a time ) Smooth to shoot. I don't remember the brand (?) of the one I bought ,but is was military surplus for $ 50 .Wish I still had it. But my Rossi
lever .357 does a great job taking it's place . Get it and enjoy .
MUTT
up 75 yards.Little tighter aim needed for 100 or so. I also had one when I was again a civilian . No kick to worry about easy to carry (miles a time ) Smooth to shoot. I don't remember the brand (?) of the one I bought ,but is was military surplus for $ 50 .Wish I still had it. But my Rossi
lever .357 does a great job taking it's place . Get it and enjoy .
MUTT
Sunray
Member
Geez, look at that. A thread that started 5 years ago is still going strong.
"...significantly easier on the ears..." No cartridge fired inside is easy on your hearing. One shot out of any firearm will cause irrepairable hearing loss.
"...Then I would see if I could..." Planning for it is called 1st degree murder.
"...is an M2 better?..." An M2 is an MG. When you send bullets all over creation, you are responsible for where every one of 'em ends up.
"...more from the realm of the pistol than from..." Nope. It's a 300 yard carbine round. Has nothing whatever to do with handguns of any kind.
"...hang a flashlight on one..." Whatever for?
"...significantly easier on the ears..." No cartridge fired inside is easy on your hearing. One shot out of any firearm will cause irrepairable hearing loss.
"...Then I would see if I could..." Planning for it is called 1st degree murder.
"...is an M2 better?..." An M2 is an MG. When you send bullets all over creation, you are responsible for where every one of 'em ends up.
"...more from the realm of the pistol than from..." Nope. It's a 300 yard carbine round. Has nothing whatever to do with handguns of any kind.
"...hang a flashlight on one..." Whatever for?
Smokey Joe
Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Messages
- 2,617
Oldie thread but goodie...
This is an old thread, resurrected. FWIW, what I said abt the M1 Carbine being a collectors' item only doesn't apply, now that CMP has lots of 'em for sale. If you want a shooter, get an Inland--the commonest and therefore the cheapest. The rarer ones are pricier.
CMP's prices aren't those of the '50's and '60's, but those days are gone forever and there's no use crying over spilt milk. For a beautifully machined gas gun in a short rifle, built like a brick pizzeria, with 15 rounds ready-to-go, you can't beat the little carbine.
For HD it might be the IDEAL weapon--I dunno really, but it's so short, light, handy, easy to point, no recoil to speak of, more rounds than almost any pistol in the mag, that surely it is worth considering.
The SKS is longer, heavier, more unwieldy in close quarters, louder, more energy/round, therefore more penetration to worry abt, and only has 10 shots in the mag. Between those two, anyway, the .30 Carbine and the SKS, I'd say it's no contest, given easy availability of both.
And yes, you can get 2 SKS's for the price of one M1 Carbine, with change left over for ammo. If you're strapped for cash that's certainly a consideration.
BTW, I've got examples of both. The SKS is fun to modify, in all sorts of ways. The M1 Carbine??? It's perfect as it is! It is one of those rare creations that "they" got right on the first try!
This is an old thread, resurrected. FWIW, what I said abt the M1 Carbine being a collectors' item only doesn't apply, now that CMP has lots of 'em for sale. If you want a shooter, get an Inland--the commonest and therefore the cheapest. The rarer ones are pricier.
CMP's prices aren't those of the '50's and '60's, but those days are gone forever and there's no use crying over spilt milk. For a beautifully machined gas gun in a short rifle, built like a brick pizzeria, with 15 rounds ready-to-go, you can't beat the little carbine.
For HD it might be the IDEAL weapon--I dunno really, but it's so short, light, handy, easy to point, no recoil to speak of, more rounds than almost any pistol in the mag, that surely it is worth considering.
The SKS is longer, heavier, more unwieldy in close quarters, louder, more energy/round, therefore more penetration to worry abt, and only has 10 shots in the mag. Between those two, anyway, the .30 Carbine and the SKS, I'd say it's no contest, given easy availability of both.
And yes, you can get 2 SKS's for the price of one M1 Carbine, with change left over for ammo. If you're strapped for cash that's certainly a consideration.
BTW, I've got examples of both. The SKS is fun to modify, in all sorts of ways. The M1 Carbine??? It's perfect as it is! It is one of those rare creations that "they" got right on the first try!
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