Tommygunn
Member
steelerdude99 said:
Also true.
I would never deny the original intent of the second amendment.
I was only trying to point out real life practical realities.
Is the USA a mini Somalia?
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Also true.
I would never deny the original intent of the second amendment.
I was only trying to point out real life practical realities.
CmdrSlander
Member
People forget that the US still has a great many "wild" places. Semi auto rifles that you suggested people have "just for fun" are often needed for the elimination of animals such as the vicious wild hogs that plague Texas and the American South. Had such hogs attacked a disarmed populace, such as England, the human death toll would have been tragic. Furthermore, we have integrated the "evil" semi autos into our sporting culture with competitions like three gun matches, which require self loading rifles and shotguns. Not to mention that we have and jealously guard our right to keep and bear arms (arms that a framer of the constitution described as "all the terrible weapons of the soldier.")
AethelstanAegen
Member
You're thinking of some Prussian officers (ie Von Steuben). The Hessians were on the other side as British mercenaries.
Tommygunn
Member
Yeah .... always get those two cornfoosed.....
Nushif
Member
Coming from a south German expat ... I am offended. I am not a Prussian. 8) Also not a Bavarian. But I'd take that over a Prussian.
Sam Cade
Member
errr..
Militia is legally defined and you don't get a choice as to whether or not you are in it.
So, I'm a member of the national militia whether I like it or not.
..also, you may be subject to state militia laws as well.
In my case:
and
That is because the British people, including you, want it and allow it to be that way. As mentioned earlier the root causes of crime are socio-economic. People scapegoat guns as the cause of violence and crime because they don't want to do the hard work and commit the necessary resources toward tackling the real causes. It's much, much easier to blame it on guns and continually enact stricter gun laws thereby making the naive public feel like something significant is being done.
So....you based your impression of the US on one website? I find that hard to believe unless you've simply never heard of the word 'research'. I think, as earlier posters pointed out, that you are trolling for emotional responses.
How many TVs, pairs of shoes, suits, computers, stereos, etc. do you own? If your hobby is computers for instance you'll likely have access to more than one and usually multiple. As far as bullet lethality goes, why would you not want to do 'research' (again with that illusive word) in order to find the most effective loads in case you have to use your firearm for hunting or even, heaven forbid, self defense?
If a criminal robbed and/or attacked you and/or your family at gun/knife point in a remote area, like maybe a parking garage, would that be the result of a firefight? Crime is everywhere, especially in the UK. Just because the violence isn't anywhere near the same level as in Mogadishu it doesn't mean that the need to be able to defend oneself doesn't still exist.
If you think you witnessed excessive force you can report the incident. Our cops carry guns because they regularly encounter criminals who carry guns. Sometimes these criminals are ready and willing to shoot at the police. Just because it didn't happen this time doesn't mean that it hasn't happened in the past and won't happen in the future. It doesn't matter what the gun laws are in a given jurisdiction criminals don't obey gun laws.
I wouldn't call you that. I would say though that you're very naive if you think that the heavy firearms restrictions, implemented by your government, are in your best interest.
jk2008
Member
Thank you, evan price, I really needed a good belly-laugh today!
Tommygunn
Member
Sam Cade said:
Sam, I am aware of that law.... but I just really hate to think of a bunch of wanna-be mall ninja types who swill beer to be a "serious" militia.
"Serious" militias report to the state governor and hold regular excercises and have regular elected officers and evince some type of discipline and good order.
The SEAL type wannabes out in the woods on Saturdays may, in the legal sense, still be considered part of the "unorganized militia," but I'd rather depend upon Captain Parmenter & F Troop than most of them should TSHTF.
Just sayin' .......
Tommygunn
Member
Nushif said:
Wie geht es Ihnen gesundheitlich?
Sorry Nushif, I meant no offense. Purely a memory problem on my part, nothing more.
SunnySlopes
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Correctamundo John!
Now, for the bonus round, what did England do with the guns we so graciously lent them, after the war?
throdgrain
Member
Hi guys
I've read some of this thread (it's long!), but I'd like to add a couple of bits.
Firstly, in Britain if you want a shotgun you apply for a licence, but the police have to prove a reason why you cant have one, rather than you having to prove a reason to have one. This is somewhat at odds with the other posts on here.
Second, I know lots of people with shotgun licences
Third, MI5 do not investigate your application
Fourth, How can the USA be a little Somalia? I've never heard anything so daft ... have what guns you want folks, and do with them what you want. I wish I could.
I've read some of this thread (it's long!), but I'd like to add a couple of bits.
Firstly, in Britain if you want a shotgun you apply for a licence, but the police have to prove a reason why you cant have one, rather than you having to prove a reason to have one. This is somewhat at odds with the other posts on here.
Second, I know lots of people with shotgun licences
Third, MI5 do not investigate your application
Fourth, How can the USA be a little Somalia? I've never heard anything so daft ... have what guns you want folks, and do with them what you want. I wish I could.
razorback2003
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People have always come to America to be independent and have freedoms. We have fairly cheap land compared to European countries. Our houses are generally cheaper. For what I pay for a mortgage I could not have the kind of home I have in TN for the same money in the UK. I probably would be in an apartment over there.
A lot of people in the South especially are descendants of Scotch Irish people who have always been fighting to survive, whether it be in Ireland or the Southern US. Look at the Ozarks, Smokey Mtns and what settled those areas. Generally they were independent people who wanted to be left alone and not controlled by the government in every aspect of their lives.
When I look at the UK and the rest of Europe, I see a place that makes our TSA crap at the American airports look like a walk in the park. Cameras, random searches, extreme government reg from a pocket knife to a real gun, barriers to starting new businesses, very heavy taxes, high labor costs, extremely expensive gas.
We have a lot of folks that like their space, big trucks, fast cars, homes with yards, rural homes with acreage. A good chunk of the population here can afford it. You'd have to be really wealthy to afford the space that we have here that is not handed down in the UK.
Is one way right and one way wrong? Probably not. It is what you are used to, grew up with, and local customs. You adapt to what you are in and make it work.
A lot of people in the South especially are descendants of Scotch Irish people who have always been fighting to survive, whether it be in Ireland or the Southern US. Look at the Ozarks, Smokey Mtns and what settled those areas. Generally they were independent people who wanted to be left alone and not controlled by the government in every aspect of their lives.
When I look at the UK and the rest of Europe, I see a place that makes our TSA crap at the American airports look like a walk in the park. Cameras, random searches, extreme government reg from a pocket knife to a real gun, barriers to starting new businesses, very heavy taxes, high labor costs, extremely expensive gas.
We have a lot of folks that like their space, big trucks, fast cars, homes with yards, rural homes with acreage. A good chunk of the population here can afford it. You'd have to be really wealthy to afford the space that we have here that is not handed down in the UK.
Is one way right and one way wrong? Probably not. It is what you are used to, grew up with, and local customs. You adapt to what you are in and make it work.
This is a forum dedicated to firearms, of course we will be talking about firearms. I happen to have, as I'm sure others here have, numerous other hobbies and interests as well. I mean would you go t oa Martha Stewart website and assume that American is composed entirely of knitting enthusiasts?
SunnySlopes
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Ok, let's leave California out of this.
Wanderling
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fully agree with Tommygun. The best guarantee of freedom is ability to control one's government via lawful means. Which we have, sort of, but not enough IMHO, and use very little. The right to bear arms isn't an indication of freedom. There's plenty of countries where citizens can easily buy a machine gun yet are ruled by a bloody dictator and his death squads. A determined well trained modern army will always win a battle against home insurgency as long as the army stays loyal to the government (barring foreign invasion). All, without exception, succesfull revolutions happened when armed forces were demoralized and unwilling to fight, or outright joined the rebels.
I don't think the US has more freedom, overall, than Western Europe. We simply have different sets of laws than Germany or UK. I could certainly argue that in the countries with multi-party parliaments an average citizen's voice is better heard. But let's keep politics out of this. I think the gun laws in the UK are overreaching, but that alone doesn't make the UK a less free country. Does it mean that Switzerland or Finland are more free just because they may have fewer restrictions on gun ownership than US does ? What about their system of government ? Their election process ? Their system of legal checks and balances making sure the government doesn't spin out of control ? Their courts ? What kind of protection from arrest or search or surveillance do citizens of each country have ? How easy is it for the Govt to bypass this constitutional protection ? I think when you compare different counries based on this criteria, it's unlikely that USs will emerge having the most freedoms. Not at the top, at least. Hopefully close.
I don't think the US has more freedom, overall, than Western Europe. We simply have different sets of laws than Germany or UK. I could certainly argue that in the countries with multi-party parliaments an average citizen's voice is better heard. But let's keep politics out of this. I think the gun laws in the UK are overreaching, but that alone doesn't make the UK a less free country. Does it mean that Switzerland or Finland are more free just because they may have fewer restrictions on gun ownership than US does ? What about their system of government ? Their election process ? Their system of legal checks and balances making sure the government doesn't spin out of control ? Their courts ? What kind of protection from arrest or search or surveillance do citizens of each country have ? How easy is it for the Govt to bypass this constitutional protection ? I think when you compare different counries based on this criteria, it's unlikely that USs will emerge having the most freedoms. Not at the top, at least. Hopefully close.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
They can cancel your permit for doing something legal?
Highgate
Member
This IS research. In real-time!
My original post was indeed intended to catch the eye ... and by the number or responses it seems to have worked.
The responses in this thread are so wide ranging and detailed that this data could be used as a course project for a student.
I now have a much clearer idea of the gun culture in the US ... which was the main point of the original post.
I also suspect that some Americans reading this thread may have learned a thing or two.
To be frank I was NOT expecting all the 'constitution' type & quasi-political replies.
It's hard for me to see how gun ownership etc is so embedded into the American political & social culture. Some posters suggest that guns are just tools ... but they clearly are more important than that to Americans.
I had expected much more discussion about criminal risks etc.
The passion (I'll refrain from calling it rudeness or hostility) of some posters was also a bit of a shock.
Firearms are of no particular interest to most Europeans - and they certainly never come up in any political discussion, unless a firearms crime murder has just taken place,
It seems that the USA and Europe differ greatly in their attitude to gun ownership.
In Europe owning a gun is like owning a camera or a car or a power saw - no big deal.
In the USA gun ownership appears to have an almost religious importance ... which seems a bit scary to me.
Anyway, it's your country so if it works for you, fine.
Interestingly, having made this post and seen the responses plus doing some web research I very surprisingly find myself MORE in agreement with the UK gun control laws. I wasn't expecting that because I like guns and I'm not at all keen on the UK government.
SilentStalker
Member
The thing I find ironic about this thread is that all British people I know tell me not to let the government take our right to own and bear arms away! I wonder why this is? They say it is because the U.K. in general has gone to **** since the removal of that right in your country. I do not know because I do not live there. I have visited there several times and never really encountered any lawlessness or violence of any kind, especially in London, but everyone I do know that lives there claims the country is much more violent and disorderly now than it ever has been. They seem to think this has to do with the gun laws your country now enacts but who knows for sure.
And to answer you question, "No, the U.S. is nothing like Somalia!" I mean we do have lots of guns and we have our fair share of violence as everyone else in the world does but nothing like Somalia LOL. A lot of people here hunt, are interested in shooting sports, long range competitions, and various other things guns can be used for. We don't just all run around shooting people and we aren't as crazy as they make us out to be on TV! Well, at least most of us aren't anyways.
And to answer you question, "No, the U.S. is nothing like Somalia!" I mean we do have lots of guns and we have our fair share of violence as everyone else in the world does but nothing like Somalia LOL. A lot of people here hunt, are interested in shooting sports, long range competitions, and various other things guns can be used for. We don't just all run around shooting people and we aren't as crazy as they make us out to be on TV
! Well, at least most of us aren't anyways.SunnySlopes
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Are you really so obtuse as to think that comparing the greatest country on earth to Somalia would elicit any other response?!
That's because you have a servant mentality, what with being a subject and all. Free men don't think like that.
One reason that gun owning Americans cherish firearms is because firearms are a tangible reminder of how we drove out the undesirables circa 1775-1783. That's why firearm ownership is guaranteed for us, viz. to prevent government from ever trying to establish itself as a monarchy. Get it?
Highgate
Member
You do now need a reason. My firearms officer specifically required that I give one at my interview. Try getting a shotgun certificate without a reason!
My firearms officer recited a list of official bodies that had been checked prior to the interview. Apparently the security services are asked in addition to the various police checks. The home interview is simply the final step of the process : to ensure that no 'identity theft' has taken place ... and also to make sure that your walls aren't painted black and that you don't have any 'unusual' flags on the walls!
Highgate
Member
If I had 10,000+ cartridges at home? Sheesh, yes. My guns would be GONE.
You can also lose your guns for a while if you get divorced or separated.
I know one guy whose hearing got very bad - so they took his guns permanently.
Overkilll0084
Member
Interesting. Like Somalia you say?
There is a UK phenomenon that I'm curious about. Is it mandatory for young british hooligans to steal and burn a car at any particular interval? No, they can't just steal it and strip it. No, they have to burn it too.
How'd all those riots work out in London & other metro areas? Law abiding shopkeepers fighting off rioter with cricket bats.
FWIW, Riots after sports events are still relatively rare over here. How many drunken rugby fans does it take to destroy a town center?
Which country looks more like Somalia? Glass houses....
There is a UK phenomenon that I'm curious about. Is it mandatory for young british hooligans to steal and burn a car at any particular interval? No, they can't just steal it and strip it. No, they have to burn it too.
How'd all those riots work out in London & other metro areas? Law abiding shopkeepers fighting off rioter with cricket bats.
FWIW, Riots after sports events are still relatively rare over here. How many drunken rugby fans does it take to destroy a town center?
Which country looks more like Somalia? Glass houses....
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
Then why is it legal to have 15k something? hardly sounds fair. Sounds like an intentional trap.
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