In the US your innocent until proven guilty. So unless you are proven guilty of a crime then there is no reason that you shouldnt be able to own a firearm or vote or be free to move around as you please. once you have commited a crime then you are guilty and then you forfit certian rights.
Is the USA a mini Somalia?
- Thread starter Highgate
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HoosierQ
Member
This is going down as maybe the dumbest thread ever to make it to 8 pages. To suggest there is anything similar between the United States and Somalia is just beyond rediculous.
Highgate
Member
Thanks HL5 !
I doubt I'll be coming over any time soon as I've changed career and so no longer travel much.
I used to work in bank vault technology which meant a lot of foreign travel ... and a lot of exposure to guns in various countries ... but very little exposure to sunlight!
Nowadays I run a high tech consultancy business in the middle of the British countryside whilst my wife runs the farm.
jk2008
Member
Awwww not yet! We're just now getting to the good part were throdgrain is walloping on highgate!
Highgate
Member
I posted a serious question in a slightly contentious manner.
I learned what I wanted - although I hadn't expected everyone and their aunty to post a response!
Also, the majority of the responses have been informative, polite and helpful.
Anyway, maybe it's time to call an end to this thread as almost all points seem to have been covered by now,
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
And that my friend, says it all. That is a statement that makes most American's blood run cold, liberal, conservative or otherwise.
SunnySlopes
Member
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"Slightly contentious?"
I guess we can add "tact" and "diplomacy" to the many things you fail to learn in British public school.
Cosmoline
Member
The big difference is we waive to each other from our technicals.
If you're ever in the Anchorage area drop me a line and I'll be happy to take you out to the range.
It isn't up here, either. And in that sense there's a pretty big difference between the states. In "border" states such as Virginia where there are large groups of both factions, you find that gun ownership is politically volatile. Up here everyone owns them. Almost everyone, anyway. And they're just part of life. Not typically a political statement.
To see an example of this, take Sarah Palin (please lol). When she ran for Governor the issue barely came up, as most Dems here could outshoot her pretty handily and it was a Dem who introduced unrestricted concealed carry. Some are hard core subsistence hunters who either hit the mark or have to eat ten year old spam. But the second she hit the national scene she started posing with iron. At the national level guns have become a culture war issue.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. When you boil it down, there may not be any difference between a place where, as far as firearms, just about anything goes (like AK) and a place where almost nothing is allowed (like the UK). The crime rates are different, but not necessarily better or worse. And in the end there are underlying demographic and cultural reasons for crime rates that aren't impacted by gun policy at all. So even if Alaska had stronger gun control, you'd see similar patterns of high rural violence linked to endemic alcohol abuse and lower crime rates in the urban areas where policing is more thorough. Just look to northern Canada and you'll see that same pattern, thought hey have stronger gun control policies. I believe you'd see the same pattern if firearms were replaced with axes.
Likewise while gun ownership changes crime patterns, it doesn't stop crime overall. It's just squeezing the other end of the toothpaste tube. So you see far fewer muggings and petty assaults here, because people don't want their heads blown off. But you see more shootings, of course. And you see crime targeting firearms, because they're a form of cash money here. I could, this afternoon, buy a car with some rifles and ammo no problem. I'd have the keys by seven tonight. I've bought camping gear with primers, too. (so I guess that's another similarity with Africa)
In other words I think we're all missing the real causes when we look to firearms as the cure or cause of crime. Firearms are a side issue with only peripheral impact on crime.
Bush Alaska and the UK do have one interesting thing in common--both are among the only places with UNARMED peace officers. So you have the interesting situation of an unarmed VPSO (village public safety officer) dealing with village population with near 100% firearm ownership. There are armed troopers, but often need days or weeks to get in depending on the weather. It does preclude any heavy-handed tactics by law enforcement. The VPSO needs to persuade and rely on cultural traditions to keep things under control. It sometimes prevents decisive action, of course. And it remains controversial.
If you're ever in the Anchorage area drop me a line and I'll be happy to take you out to the range.
It isn't up here, either. And in that sense there's a pretty big difference between the states. In "border" states such as Virginia where there are large groups of both factions, you find that gun ownership is politically volatile. Up here everyone owns them. Almost everyone, anyway. And they're just part of life. Not typically a political statement.
To see an example of this, take Sarah Palin (please lol). When she ran for Governor the issue barely came up, as most Dems here could outshoot her pretty handily and it was a Dem who introduced unrestricted concealed carry. Some are hard core subsistence hunters who either hit the mark or have to eat ten year old spam. But the second she hit the national scene she started posing with iron. At the national level guns have become a culture war issue.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. When you boil it down, there may not be any difference between a place where, as far as firearms, just about anything goes (like AK) and a place where almost nothing is allowed (like the UK). The crime rates are different, but not necessarily better or worse. And in the end there are underlying demographic and cultural reasons for crime rates that aren't impacted by gun policy at all. So even if Alaska had stronger gun control, you'd see similar patterns of high rural violence linked to endemic alcohol abuse and lower crime rates in the urban areas where policing is more thorough. Just look to northern Canada and you'll see that same pattern, thought hey have stronger gun control policies. I believe you'd see the same pattern if firearms were replaced with axes.
Likewise while gun ownership changes crime patterns, it doesn't stop crime overall. It's just squeezing the other end of the toothpaste tube. So you see far fewer muggings and petty assaults here, because people don't want their heads blown off. But you see more shootings, of course. And you see crime targeting firearms, because they're a form of cash money here. I could, this afternoon, buy a car with some rifles and ammo no problem. I'd have the keys by seven tonight. I've bought camping gear with primers, too. (so I guess that's another similarity with Africa)
In other words I think we're all missing the real causes when we look to firearms as the cure or cause of crime. Firearms are a side issue with only peripheral impact on crime.
Bush Alaska and the UK do have one interesting thing in common--both are among the only places with UNARMED peace officers. So you have the interesting situation of an unarmed VPSO (village public safety officer) dealing with village population with near 100% firearm ownership. There are armed troopers, but often need days or weeks to get in depending on the weather. It does preclude any heavy-handed tactics by law enforcement. The VPSO needs to persuade and rely on cultural traditions to keep things under control. It sometimes prevents decisive action, of course. And it remains controversial.
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Sam Cade
Member
blarby
Member
Huh ?
I thought I knew what you were trying to say, and then my reasonable English intent-o-meter exploded.
Highgate : How many times have you got Mr. Fox over there ?
If you are limited to multiple-projectile cartridges, are the projectiles limited in formulation ? ( IE, we have the ban on lead in certain areas, for certain species, etc) Or are the restrictions on shot size/ number about the only limits ?
Sounds like there might be a market for a brit SD shell based on these parameters.... other than buckshot.
What brands do you use/ what brands are popular in your area ?
I'd love to hear from other brits on this'n too !
blarby
Member
If THR members and their espoused content were to be examined against this precondition...
I guess we can add "tact" and "diplomacy" to the many things you fail to learn in ANY public school.
Andela
Member
Disgusting, England has fallen.
SunnySlopes
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You don't know what you're talking about. I've never seen members of THR violate any rules of decorum. They maintain the highest levels of tact and diplomacy. What the OP did was not only stupid, it was unconscionable.
If you have problems with the behavior of THR members, I suggest you go elsewhere.
The OP was trolling. He admitted as much when he admitted he posted in a slightly contentious manner.
I can't believe we're 8 pages in and no one has even mentioned this: http://www.ligali.org/pdf/home_office_gun_crime_the_market_in_and_use_of_illegal_firearms.pdf (rather interesting 2006 study on the black market in firearms in England) or this: http://webarchive.nationalarchives....omeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/hosb1109chap2.pdf, specifically the top of page 18. Why did homicides go up in England after the handgun ban, spiking in 2003? Was there a nasty turf war between two rival gangs that year?
Black Duck Charlie
Member
Chindo, there is a world of difference between socialist/liberal and anti-gun. Being Socialist means that a person cares about the Society they are a part of. Liberal means allowing others to enjoy the rights/liberties/privileges that you enjoy. Being anti-gun means that a person does not like guns.
I know of a lot of Conservatives who "just happen" to be anti-gun.
I know of a lot of Conservatives who "just happen" to be anti-gun.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
Straying off topic here, but that's not what Socialist means at all.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism
I think the word you are looking for is "Patriot"
230therapy
Member
The thread is not over! We need pictures of your shotgun. Show it off, preferably with dead Mr. Fox.
Regarding the "crime" comment several pages back: http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2006/02/culture.html
For essays on guns in America, check out the left column on http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/
Regarding the "crime" comment several pages back: http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2006/02/culture.html
For essays on guns in America, check out the left column on http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/
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Ohio Gun Guy
Member
The last group of Brits that came here looking to take our guns didn't work out so well.....
It is precisely the Difference. It is what prevents that. Look at Mexico with it's insane high levels of crime. Mexico has very restrictive gun laws..... That line on the map and the boarder guards keep out some of that, but otherwise it's the US Police and Armed Population that keeps the criminal gangs from running the place.
It is precisely the Difference. It is what prevents that. Look at Mexico with it's insane high levels of crime. Mexico has very restrictive gun laws..... That line on the map and the boarder guards keep out some of that, but otherwise it's the US Police and Armed Population that keeps the criminal gangs from running the place.
Old krow
Member
That's not the case at all. He has referenced several times how "most" Europeans would react and "this or that" wasn't common place. This is a gun board, not in the least an accurate cross-sectional representation of US gun ownership. This isn't the "common place" mentality of US gun ownership at all, this is a firearms advocacy center.
This forum represents of sub-group of firearms owners that fairly enthusiastic about them. What other reaction could one possibly expect? His statements are roughly the same as walking into a bowling alley and explaining to the patrons why rugby is a better sport.
It just so happens that I have been to England, even married a Brit, and I've spent time in most of Europe. I have nothing bad to say about it (except that it costs 2 pounds to use the public bathroom in London
). However, I do not openly converse with them about why I think their rules are too strict or too lax. The Patriots fought against England looking to gain independence from England, thus they epitomized "questioning government."
IMHO this was a troll. This isn't research at all. This is polling an extreme point of view and applying the results of said poll to represent the whole.
blarby
Member
Lolz. Literally, Lolz.
I agree, we need pics of the shotgun, Highgate !
exavid
Member
I didn't take Higate's comparison of the US to Somalia as an insult. It seemed to me to be a bit of a deliberate exaggeration for a satirical effect. If I came from a country that severely limited firearms I'd think I was in the wild west as a lot of outsiders view the US. On a gun forum of course we will showcase the whole gamut, views moderate to extreme which should be expected considering the venue. I naturally prefer our system and think it should be less restrictive than it currently is. Since there's no chance criminals will obey gun laws it seems foolish to have laws just for the law abiding. Less restrictive gun laws with harsher penalties for those who commit crimes with guns.
BTW - Mexico has very serious problems with armed criminals and their citizens have no legal way to protect themselves. The worst part about it is that Mexicans are guaranteed the right to carry arms in their constitution but that 'right' has been limited by laws nearly as restricting as the UK but with much more severe penalties. I believe the current situation is that a Mexican citizen can have a pistol of .38 or less in caliber, a shotgun with a barrel at least 25" long and a bolt action hunting rifle. Even for those one would have to possess a gun license. In othe words their constitution has been gutted as the antis are trying to gut ours.
BTW - Mexico has very serious problems with armed criminals and their citizens have no legal way to protect themselves. The worst part about it is that Mexicans are guaranteed the right to carry arms in their constitution but that 'right' has been limited by laws nearly as restricting as the UK but with much more severe penalties. I believe the current situation is that a Mexican citizen can have a pistol of .38 or less in caliber, a shotgun with a barrel at least 25" long and a bolt action hunting rifle. Even for those one would have to possess a gun license. In othe words their constitution has been gutted as the antis are trying to gut ours.
blarby
Member
SunnySlopes said:..you're in Oregon. And I'll bet you're originally from California. They don't call it the left coast for nothing.
Literally, LOLZ!!
Yes, quite literally.... As relayed by this PM.
We all have lapses of judgement and decorum...its part of belonging to a BBS.
Some lapses are more outrageous than others...but this being a public forum, we keep things as civil and on topic as possible.
FWIW, Detroit by birth, but I did spend a lot of time in California....some areas of which were quite Somalia like, actually...just like home, If you consider the examples of Somalia offered up here.
Contentious and evocative as the thread launch may have been, the OP wanted our unabashed opinion... and cut right through a lot of the niceties in doing so.
I may add that he did actually go about it in a manner on the side of civility and discourse- unlike a fair amount of which ( earned or no, depending on your opinion) he got. But, he got what he got.
We have been able, as a result of that discourse, to learn a little bit more about the differences in the two cultures, and the similarities as well.
Would seem highgate is a little less pro 2nd A than the majority of members here, but still believes in gun ownership. In the land of allies- thats one I'll take over the legion of adversaries we face on a daily basis.
I'd still like some pics of his shotty, and perhaps a skin of mr. fox !
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