Is there a safe way to convert fmj to hollow point?

[shootistpd27]

I can contact the legislators of the great gun totin state of mississippi and my representatives feel the same way I do so I would just be preaching to the choir. (The state of Mississippi did not vote for Obama). I would try to contact the guys in washington but I am but a middle class tax payer who doesnt have enough money or political clout to be listened to. I do all that I can to support the second amendment but at some time the gun toters of this nation have to have a contingentcy plan in the case that the liberals do win and the conservatives are left paying outrageous taxes to support the thugs and criminals who will be robbing us of our lives, liberties, and our pursuit of happiness.

 

[Zoogster]

Yes it does work. However the result will not be as uniform as a bullet designed from that start.
Modern Hp rounds also go through a heat treatment that makes some portions softer than others, helping them unfold as desired.


Dum-dum rounds with just an x cut into them do work better than FMJ. Even more so if a little more space exists between the cuts or in the center to act as a pocket of resistance against tissue.
They will not open up like a designed hollowpoint, but they will often expand most of the length of the petals, especialy in higher velocity ammunition. The rest of the bullet will remain fairly solid.
This does help transfer energy. While a FMJ can allow tissue to flow around it receiving minimal damage, just the simple cuts create resistance transfering energy faster, reducing penetration, and acting completely different than a FMJ.
Just differently than a modern factory designed round.

There is many potential concerns here:
1. If you push the bullet back in the case while drilling you could create dangerous overpressure from bullet setback.
2. If you remove much material you will change the intended payload for a given powder charge. That could result in minimal effects or more noticable effects depending on the caliber, amount removed, and powder involved.
3. If you remove enough of the material between the rear of the bullet and the front of the bullet it can blow the lead through the jacket upon firing while leaving the jacket in the barrel resulting in obstruction and a kaboom on the next round. Or a better scenario but still bad, it can shoot both out of the barrel but cause them to seperate resulting in poor performance. Cutting an X ususaly won't do that, but cutting the top off can. The X lets some copper prongs still hold the lead in, as long as there is enough lead between the back and the hollow pocket.
4. Another concern is drilling or cutting on a live round. Create enough heat from friction and the round could explode on you.
5. Inconsistancy in shape resulting in flight path deviation not seen in rounds created with more precision.

So yes it can help. But there is many potential problems and you can easily purchase better designed rounds. Rounds intended to completely expand. A round that will be designed to fire the payload of the finished bullet already, not a heavier round.

In terms of performance if things work out, it will penetrate more than a HP, deliver more energy faster than a FMJ, result in some expansion and fragmention, while still retaining penetration with the remaining solid portion.
So it is like a mix of the qualities of a FMJ and JHP.
Qualities that are similar to a wadcutter (partial expansion, moderate penetration, increased resistance from front flat surface and partial expansion similar to the X slices or drilled pocket reducing tissue flow) certainly a better hunting round than a FMJ.

Certain qualities could help the finished product. Certain angles will increase resistance resulting in better expansion, along with higher velocities (why the .45 did poorly in the box o truth compared to the others). A taper can help reduce the lead blowing through. A total metal jacket would be better than one with a jacket in the rear like many FMJ.
Casualy and not precisely done some will be slightly different than others and have very different results.

 

[SIRVEYR666]

Maybe I'm a cynical fool, but if more of us spent more time contacting our elected officials and voicing our opposition to any further efforts to erode our 2A rights, we wouldn't have to worry about how to clandestinely convert one type of round to another.

Seriously - if you fear the castration of our rights so badly, what makes you think that they'd stop at hunting and target shooting? What makes you think that they'd enact legislation that would make any efforts to manufacture or alter existing ammo illegal?

Take a minute and contact your legislators. Let them know (in a calm and civil manner) that things have already gone too far, and any further shenanigans will not be tolerated. Once we've gotten to the point where we have to figure out ways to turn hardball into hollow-points, we've already lost.

Right on kingpin008! I read so many posts that deal with nothing more than meaningless bull$hit. If only these people would use their free time to help rectify these "problems" ...

 

[Auburn1992]

Switch to a ballistic tip.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

I haven't seen these mentioned yet...

Federal Ammunition has already come up with the answer for when you are not allowed to carry hollowpoints!:

http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/pistol/tacticalefmj.aspx

From the Federal Website:

"EFMJ brings a new standard to bullet expansion technology. Federal's exclusive EFMJ bullet design provides the most consistent expansion and reduced risk of collateral damage. This one-of-a-kind bullet design combines a scored full-metal nose over an internal rubber tip that collapses on impact—not based on hydraulics. Its fully enclosed design means it never fills with barrier material and ensures controlled expansion directly on impact. A low-flash propellant is ideal for low-light tactical applications, while EFMJ's bullet profile promotes smooth feeding in automatics. It's the perfect choice for reliable expansion and penetration, especially for agencies that forbid hollow point ammunition."

 

[redactor]

For pistol ammunition in particular, there is much more to the equation than simply drilling out a hole in the tip of the bullet. Sure, you could do that, but at most pistol cartridge velocities, you still wouldn't get any expansion. That's why ammunition companies score (or otherwise strategically weaken) the jacket among other tricks to help expansion. It just isn't reliable at typical pistol velocities.

I believe some of that information may have been discussed in Hatcher's Notebook, but it's getting late and my memory's not very trustworthy.

Hopefully Jim Watson will be along any second now to set the record straight, as I believe there is nothing he doesn't know.

 

[Tommygunn]

My father, who was a Korean War Vet (Us Navy Underwater Demolition Team) told me that soldiers would often cut an "X" into the tips of the bullets they used in their M-1 Carbines and 1911s. This theoretically allowed the bullet to open up and become more effective, however, I don't know if it was effective or not, just that it was done.

 

[ljh204]

i dont know if i would drill a live round. but you could grind the top flat and thin drill it. or if its not a live
roundjust senter punch it and then drill it. that might rip the jacet.

 

[Grizfire]

BTW this only works with lead nose bullets not FMJ.

Grizfire, untrue. look at the link to box o truth. Says it all.

Yeah, I am still skeptical. Just because there are pictures of FMJ rounds with x's in them, doesn't mean you can do this by hand with your pocket knife. Looks like he took a dremel to it to me. Has anyone here actually tried to do this with a pocket knife? I'm certainly not going to. At best you slice your finger, at worst the round goes off.

 

[hso]

Baaad idea.

HP bullets are designed to work the way they do. Improvising HPs isn't. At the very least you'll end up wrecking your accuracy. At the worst you could end up wrecking much much more.

 

[sm]

<spurs jangle, cigar in mouth, got the good cowboy hat on>

1. Drive nail into wood, with the pointy end facing firing line.
2. Stand at firing line and shoot the pointy end of the nail with a Lead Round Nose bullet
3. Light cigar again
4. Cowboy stroll to target, retrieve LRN which is now a Hollowpoint.
5. Hammer nail back into Target
6. Repeat as need.


*cowboy lean and mean*

 

[moooose102]

forster makes a "hollow pointer" for use on their case trimmers. it centers the drill bit as well. you simply turn the crank hom many times until you reach the desired depth you want. it will work on fmj rounds, it just takes a little longer as copper drills slower than lead. now, that being said, and since i have not tried any of these. i would THINK that if you took a sharp cutter, and scribed 6 or 8 lines in the copper jacket, it would help them to expand as well. but that is just in my mind. if you attemt this, i would suggest you check the results before using it in flesh.

 

[mija]

Kingpin008, you have the answer. Contact your representatives, get involved. Join the NRA etc. Go to NRA-ILA website, scroll down to contact a representative, type in your zip code. All your representatives pop up. You can compose a letter and e-mail it right from this site, couldn't be easier. You usually get a response, they realize that the NRA has millions of voting members and they do not ignore it. Go to www.secondamendmentmarch.com, join, get involved.

In the meantime stock up on hollow points. When it comes time to use them rub the tips in cat sht. If blood loss doesn't work, the infection will.

Mija

Semper Paratus

 

[rscalzo]

I guess legislators in NJ are under the impression that a bullet which penetrates more layers of drywall is safer to people in buildings nearby than one that penetrates fewer.

Read the law. HP ammo is legal for use in business or residential areas occuppied by the owner, range and hunting use.

 

[Deanimator]

Safe != effective.

Good JHPs have jackets DESIGNED to deform predictably. That design and construction is lacking in an FMJ with a hole drilled in the meplat. The odds of it reliably expanding at typical safe pistol velocities are very low.

 

[Deanimator]

Read the law. HP ammo is legal for use in business or residential areas occuppied by the owner, range and hunting use.

True.

It would be more accurate to say that lawmakers in New Jersey find it preferable for you to get a through and through during a defensive shoot and kill a two year old on the other side of your assailant, than to shoot your assailant with a JHP that stays inside the intended target.

 

[jbkebert]

There is a very easy way to convert a fmj to hollow point. Go to the range fire the fmj round. Pick up spent brass. Go home and reload with a hollow point bullet. See its easy

 

[leadcounsel]

Spend time fighting any legislation rather than carving bullets...

The point that HPs are better is:

1) Less through penetration therefore less chance of wounding an unintended target
2) Less wall penetration same as #1
3) Less ricochet potential
4) More humane kills/stops
5) Faster stops b/c of more transfer of energy in the aggressor, thereby less chance the victim gets injured
6) Because the aggressor is stopped faster, less need for more shots to be fired thereby reducing the risk for everyone.

 

[Tinpig]

The Fall, 2008 issue of the Garand Collectors Association Journal has an article about a small military museum in the town of Wiltz, Luxembourg.
There is a photo of a museum display showing
.30 cal. M2 ball ammunition in Garand clips that has been very neatly drilled out at the nose to make hollowpoints.
The caption states that this was done by local farmers for hunting.

Tinpig

 

[free1486]

Very interesting question.

What would happen if a .223 steel core round had the tip cut down a bit so it would act like a hollow point?
This way it would work for both hard, armored targets and soft targets, rather than just zipping through like an ice pick, as some reports from the field suggest.
Of course, that wouldn't work for military apps, since the Hauge Convention banned hollowpoints.
Would grinding the tips down a tiny bit make them inaccurate, if not done precisely?

 

[free1486]

Very interesting:

If you take an M855 round and sand off the tip by .055", you get a flat tip with a tiny pin sized hole. If you cut it down a bit more, you get a standard sized "hollow point" hole in the middle of the flat area.
The whole tip of the M855 round is hollow...the lead portion doesn't even begin until you go down almost .100".
So...you get a round that may function like a hollow point if it hits something soft or...will still have armor penetrating capabilities if it hits something hard. Perhaps more penetrating, as there is less "crumple zone" of stiff copper tip to slow it down before it hits.
Possible tactical advantages?
If accuracy doesn't suffer, it will mean your round is now dual purpose...devastating on soft and armored targets...hmmmm...no more complaining about failures to stop with the .223.
What would this do to accuracy??
I don't know. But if I find out something interesting, I'll let everyone know.

 

[free1486]

The above mentioned specs were from a PPU M855, Przi Partizan 62 grain. Lake City
M855, however, has a much thicker copper jacket and lead that comes up way higher into the tip. Is PPU skimping on lead or the penetrator?
Would the PPU destabilize after striking a soft target faster because of the thinner, more hollow copper tip?
What gives?

 

[Pack]

I don't think, in practical terms, the original premise is actually of great concern.

1) Look at the advances made in bullet technology in the past 20 years in terms of developing all of our new gee-whiz hollowpoints. Our engineers in this field are an amazing group of people.

2) On the other hand, look at how moronic most politicians can be. The practical effect of the AWB was to call out weapons by their name and/or cosmetic features. Any "hollow-point ban" would most likely follow the same lines. These people fall victim to their own sensationalism. Hell, it would probably still mention "Black Talons" by name.

If such legislation were handed down, I'll bet it'd be a matter of months before some of our finer bullet and ammunition manufacturers had projectiles and rounds in production that would give us performance very close to the excellent levels we enjoy at present, but that wouldn't fit the "definitions" of such an asinine piece of legislation.

I wouldn't even be surprised if a couple of these gifted individuals are at least toying with various concepts along these lines on their own time as we speak.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

People have been winning gunfights with LRN and FMJ bullets for a few hundred years now. Given the choice between a precisely engineered FMJ bullet that will do its job if the shot placement is good, and an improvised hollowpoint that could potentially cause a serious weapon malfunction and will probably only be marginally more effecive even if it doesnt, I think il take the FMJ.

 

[benEzra]

So...you get a round that may function like a hollow point if it hits something soft or...will still have armor penetrating capabilities if it hits something hard. Perhaps more penetrating, as there is less "crumple zone" of stiff copper tip to slow it down before it hits.
Possible tactical advantages?
If accuracy doesn't suffer, it will mean your round is now dual purpose...devastating on soft and armored targets...hmmmm...no more complaining about failures to stop with the .223.
What would this do to accuracy??

I think it would actually result in worse performance against both hard and soft targets.

M855 effectiveness inside 100 yards out of carbine or rifle length barrels (not 10.5" shorties) is similar to M193, AFAIK; the bullet fragments as long as velocity is high enough. The problem with M855 is that it loses the ability to fragment at as it loses velocity, and because it has a lower muzzle velocity to start with, that occurs a bit sooner than with M193, with the threshold probably somewhere between 100 and 300 yards depending on barrel length.

Thing is, if you screw up the ballistic coefficient and vastly increase drag by giving the bullet a blunt nose, that velocity dropoff is going to happen much faster, and the bullet will lose its ability to fragment a lot sooner.

That will also result in less armor penetration; M855 penetrates worse than M193 at close range because of its lower velocity, and only penetrates better at long range because it retains velocity better at long range; it is regular ball, not AP. If you screw up the ballistic coefficient, you cause the velocity to drop off sooner, making it behave more like M193 or worse.

Couple that with the reduction in accuracy you'd probably see (making it less likely you'd actually hit whatever it is you're shooting at), and I see lots of downside and no real upside.