At what point did the cases start sticking?
Since it is doing it in both revolvers, I have to think pressure first over a gun issue such as a rough chamber.
Is this a thing with 357 in Revolvers?
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Since it is doing it in both revolvers, I have to think pressure first over a gun issue such as a rough chamber.
I have found 13.6- 13.8gr of Accurate #9 with 158gr XTP's works well in a 2.75" Ruger Security Six .357 magnum, but in a S&W post lock 686 6" the fired cases would stick in the chamber. So 12.8-13.2gr of #9 was a better load with that bullet in that gun.
http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/WesternPowdersHandloadingGuide8.0_WEB.pdf
http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/WesternPowdersHandloadingGuide8.0_WEB.pdf
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The max recorded charge in a manual is the highest THEY could go with their brass, primer, bullet, powder and gun/test barrel. Unless you have THEIR brass, primer, bullet, powder and gun/test barrel, your results will vary.
Max charge according to data, or not, you are too hot for your combination of components & gun.
Max charge according to data, or not, you are too hot for your combination of components & gun.
TTv2
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That and different manuals will have different load data. I was looking at .327 with a 100 gr JHP in Lyman 50th and the max load with AA#9 is 13.0 grains, but in the Hornady 10th they have 12.7 grains as the max with AA#9 for their 100 gr XTP bullet.
Hornady was using Starline brass and a Federal magnum primer. Lyman didn't list the case, used a Winchester primer (I think) and didn't list the bullet, but only one company makes a 100 grain .312 bullet.
After seeing that difference, I decided to stick to using the Hornady manual when using their XTP bullets.
Sticky cases, flattened, cratered or pierced primers are all signs of high pressure. Drop your charge by a 10ths of grain until the cases extract easily and there are no other pressure signs. Changing to standard primers and not using magnum primers with 2400 will reduce load pressure, see Speer manual notes on the .357 mag that warns of over pressure using magnum primers.
I don't know how experienced you are in handloading but us older guys will be glad to help by sharing our experience.
I don't know how experienced you are in handloading but us older guys will be glad to help by sharing our experience.
Thank you all for the comments. Enough people have answered so that I am comfortable now with a few things.
1. Some people have experienced sticky cases at max published data, but most that have responded have not had sticky cases. From this I am concluding that sticky cases is not a thing for 357 unless the pressure is too high for my guns or the chambers are rough. Nickel plated cases can help with non-perfectly smooth chambers.
2. For 2400, HS-6, A#9 powders, my guns don’t have extraction problems at about 5% less than published maximums and for all three powders. I’m good with that.
3. Down the road I may consider polishing the chambers or / and using nickel plated cases. However, I don’t currently see a need to push 158 JHP loads any faster.
4. HS-6 is being reserved for my 45 Colt. The Alliant 2400 worked good for me at 14gr with CCI-550 , 158 JHP Speer / Speer Deep Curl / MagTech JHP 158, so that is where I will stay. I will try non-magnum primers with 2400 to see how it does. The Accurate#9 worked good for me at 13.0gr with CCI-550 and Berrys 158gr plated, so that is where I will stay.
5. I really like my small groups, low velocity spreads, high velocities and easy extraction using H110 in the 357. But H110 / W296 is tough to come by these days and the stuff I have on hand will be reserved for 45 Colt. No worries, because the 2400 and A#9 works, just not at published maximums.
6. When the world returns to normal and I can buy Federal primers, I may do more polishing and trigger work and stretch things out to see how the 586 does for me at 100 to 150 yards. For this, I may find I need a little more oomph for a better trajectory at 150 yards. There are reasons Dan Wesson’s in 357 Maximum ruled the 150 yard silhouette game, that I understand.
This was a long post, but I wanted everyone to know I listened, thought about it, and changed my thinking.
1. Some people have experienced sticky cases at max published data, but most that have responded have not had sticky cases. From this I am concluding that sticky cases is not a thing for 357 unless the pressure is too high for my guns or the chambers are rough. Nickel plated cases can help with non-perfectly smooth chambers.
2. For 2400, HS-6, A#9 powders, my guns don’t have extraction problems at about 5% less than published maximums and for all three powders. I’m good with that.
3. Down the road I may consider polishing the chambers or / and using nickel plated cases. However, I don’t currently see a need to push 158 JHP loads any faster.
4. HS-6 is being reserved for my 45 Colt. The Alliant 2400 worked good for me at 14gr with CCI-550 , 158 JHP Speer / Speer Deep Curl / MagTech JHP 158, so that is where I will stay. I will try non-magnum primers with 2400 to see how it does. The Accurate#9 worked good for me at 13.0gr with CCI-550 and Berrys 158gr plated, so that is where I will stay.
5. I really like my small groups, low velocity spreads, high velocities and easy extraction using H110 in the 357. But H110 / W296 is tough to come by these days and the stuff I have on hand will be reserved for 45 Colt. No worries, because the 2400 and A#9 works, just not at published maximums.
6. When the world returns to normal and I can buy Federal primers, I may do more polishing and trigger work and stretch things out to see how the 586 does for me at 100 to 150 yards. For this, I may find I need a little more oomph for a better trajectory at 150 yards. There are reasons Dan Wesson’s in 357 Maximum ruled the 150 yard silhouette game, that I understand.
This was a long post, but I wanted everyone to know I listened, thought about it, and changed my thinking.
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Catpop
Member
My second post
If those cases are still tight after resizing then they have probably been overpressurized. This is because the shell holder doesn’t allow the die to 100% full length resize the brass case. This is an indicator the heavy base of the case has been compromised.
I would discard those cases
JMHO
If those cases are still tight after resizing then they have probably been overpressurized. This is because the shell holder doesn’t allow the die to 100% full length resize the brass case. This is an indicator the heavy base of the case has been compromised.
I would discard those cases
JMHO
UncleEd
Member
In post #25 I mentioned Elmer Keith's use of
the 2400 powder and his reduced loadings.
Another aspect I forgot to mention is he DID
NOT use magnum primers, thus avoiding a
somewhat higher pressure.
the 2400 powder and his reduced loadings.
Another aspect I forgot to mention is he DID
NOT use magnum primers, thus avoiding a
somewhat higher pressure.
Excellent!
ThomasT
Member
Richard Lee in the Lee reloading manual made the point that you will never miss the power of a load reduced by 5% from max. Sounds like you are finding that out. I loaded full max power rounds when I first started reloading then backed off the loads and never again reloaded max power rounds. I figured if my less than max loads wouldn't do the job I didn't need more powder. I needed a bigger round. So I stopped beating the hell out of my guns.
Riomouse911
Member
It sounds like you’re getting it nicely.
Reloading is a bit like golf; most of us have found our loads achieve top accuracy and reliability in our firearms with sub-maximum pressure loads...just like top accuracy on the course is most often found with sub-maximum swing effort.
Oh, and you were right about the DW ruling the production revolver disciplines on the IHMSA shooting lines.. but at 150 meters the .357 Max was only 3/4 of the way to impacting those 50 lb steel rams.... it took a lot of residual energy to topple one with a sub-optimal hit.
Stay safe.
Master Blaster
Member
Ru4Real. You said did the following work on your 586.
Quote:
I’ve also had it apart and polished the internals and lightened the trigger pull. This one (maybe all L frames?) needs the trigger spring tight (factory setting) for CCI primers.
End Quote
How did you tighten the trigger spring and lighten the trigger pull??
Quote:
I’ve also had it apart and polished the internals and lightened the trigger pull. This one (maybe all L frames?) needs the trigger spring tight (factory setting) for CCI primers.
End Quote
How did you tighten the trigger spring and lighten the trigger pull??
First, I disassembled the pistol completely. I polished the moving parts including the sear. I cut 1.5 turns off the trigger coil spring. These two, polishing and coil spring cut, is what lightened the trigger pull.
I loosened the screw 3/4 turn that sets the hammer flat spring tension to try and lighten more. From the factory it was tight. Winchester primers were fine, single action CCI primers were fine, but about 1 in 10 CCI primers in double action failed to fire on the first primer strike. They all fired on a second primer strike. So I tightened the flat spring screw the 3/4 turn back to tight. Since I undid the 3/4 turn, this ultimately had no effect in lightening the trigger pull, so far.
If this 586 ultimately proves accurate to me, I will undo this “poor man’s trigger job” and have a pro make it right. For example, in about a week I will get one of my S&W Model 25’s back from a local gun smith. His trigger job includes a Wolf spring kit (flat spring and coil spring) and polishing for about $95. Worth it if the gun shoots good.
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doubleh
Member
I would like to add to what Riomouse said in post # 38. My experience has been about like his. I have never, except in one instance, obtained the best accuracy with a maximum load and that was in a rifle.. CRS being what it is I would have to go look up what that one instance was. Backing off maximum a bit is easier on the gun and you and I have never shot an animal that seemed to know the difference if I managed to hit where it I was supposed to.
I found that polishing the rebound slide and where it rides in the frame along with a 15# rebound slide spring brought my 686-6's from an 11# trigger pull down to 9.5# and the stroke is smooth as silk. I reload with CCI primers and have no ignition problems.
Cutting that spring off isn't the best idea. The design requires a certain amount of pressure on it even at rest. That is why aftermarket lighter springs will actually be longer, so as to provide that pressure when at rest
Cutting that spring off isn't the best idea. The design requires a certain amount of pressure on it even at rest. That is why aftermarket lighter springs will actually be longer, so as to provide that pressure when at rest
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