Is this the perfect gun case defendant?

[CoalTrain49]

Heck I have been pulled over for speeding when I didn't realize the speed I was going wasn't legal in the location where I was stopped even though I had no intent to be speeding. Does that mean I should not be given a ticket or have to pay it?

I would have to say that's a pretty poor comparison. The speed limit is posted, or should be, GC laws aren't. I was issued a warning one time when I was speeding because 1) My residence was in a different county with different laws and 2) the speed limit was not posted where I entered onto the county road from the freeway. I made that point an the LEO said he was aware of it and that the speed limit was 35. Now you know, have a good day.

 

[BLB68]

This quote is from the Fox news article posted up thead:

Despite a lack of a criminal record, Nappen said Allen was not accepted into a diversionary program that would allow her to avoid jail time altogether. They both are hoping that a judge will see the matter in a different light.

This may be her best chance to avoid further jail time.

Jury nullification may not be an option. In many states, attorneys aren't allowed to mention the option to jurors, which means most jurors will have no idea the option even exists.

A constitutional challenge will likely take so long that she'll be out of jail anyway, so at best she could get the verdict overturned and her record cleaned up, but damage would be done. It's also very much a long shot.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Being near Pennsylvania has nothing to do with it, and neither does having made a 'wrong turn' or wether or not she had lace on her underware. It is about the anti-gun-rights laws in New Jersey. The suit needs to be brought up against those laws. She is being wrongfully harmed by unconstitutional laws.

Well, that could be said for any related gun issue in NJ, but that hasn't happened yet. HOWEVER, the issue of proximity does have something to do with the lawyer's claims that she entered the state unintentionally.

However, since you mentioned the lace panties angle, the fact that she is a black, single mom with a good job from a bad neighborhood has nothing to do with the Constitutional issue either, as implied by the OP.

I would have to say that's a pretty poor comparison. The speed limit is posted, or should be, GC laws aren't.

Doesn't really matter. Few laws are posted. We are still responsible to abide by them.

I find it hard to believe that in getting her permit in Philly and going through a gun course that she had no knowledge that NJ was gun unfriendly.

While it is noted that she had only had the gun for a week, the offense being Oct 1, 2013, she had her carry permit since April 24, 2012.
http://www.ammoland.com/2014/07/njs...trol-claims-yet-another-victim/#axzz37mQ4rlEH

 

[RustyShackelford]

Draconian laws; public safety office.....

I don't think NJ enforcement of their laws or statues is "draconian" .
If you apply for a gun permit or CCW, it's your responsibility or requirement to learn the SOPs & laws.
In many places it goes like this;
public safety office employee/regulatory agency staff: Okay, here's your new CCW/gun license. Here's a free safety lock & a hand-out with all the important state gun laws/carry requirements.
New gun owner/license holder; uh-huh, yeah, whatever, ok.

My state does not require LE notice of concealed guns/weapons. I decided I would explain that I was armed or had a CC weapon when a sworn LE officer asks me directly if there is anything in the motor vehicle he needs to know about or if he/she asks me for my ID/vehicle reg/insurance. When I hand them my CCW license card, I'll then say I have my firearm too.
That way they don't get startled & it's clear I'm not a felon or aggressive.
Massad Ayoob does a great training video on this topic(how to handle traffic stops).

 

[Sniper66]

This case is precisely why I do not carry guns in my car unless I am very sure what the laws allow from state to state. Sadly, when I'm on the road driving through several states, it is less risky to leave my gun at home than risk running into an antigun cop. I'm more afraid of antigun cops than I am of the other potential hazards of multistage travel.

 

[Sniper66]

I meant multi-state travel.

 

[Field Tester]

I don't think NJ enforcement of their laws or statues is "draconian" .
If you apply for a gun permit or CCW, it's your responsibility or requirement to learn the SOPs & laws.
In many places it goes like this;
public safety office employee/regulatory agency staff: Okay, here's your new CCW/gun license. Here's a free safety lock & a hand-out with all the important state gun laws/carry requirements.
New gun owner/license holder; uh-huh, yeah, whatever, ok.

My state does not require LE notice of concealed guns/weapons. I decided I would explain that I was armed or had a CC weapon when a sworn LE officer asks me directly if there is anything in the motor vehicle he needs to know about or if he/she asks me for my ID/vehicle reg/insurance. When I hand them my CCW license card, I'll then say I have my firearm too.
That way they don't get startled & it's clear I'm not a felon or aggressive.
Massad Ayoob does a great training video on this topic(how to handle traffic stops).

Wow Rusty, I think this is the first time I've ever disagreed with something you've written. I don't think previous posters are saying that the enforcement of the law is Draconian, but rather the law itself.

I disagree with both though. I feel even enforcing a law like this (or even creating it in the first place) completely violates the 8th Amendment.
The punishment certainly does not fit the crime.

But as always, I appreciate your view.

 

[JohnBT]

The NJ law isn't draconian. Draco's laws in the Draconic Code were harsh in the extreme.

"The death penalty was the punishment for even minor offences, such as "stealing a cabbage"."

Solon repealed the Draconic Code in the 6th Century B.C. He did keep the death penalty for murder.

I think the word draconian has been overused and the meaning watered down over the years.

fwiw

John

 

[NoVA Shooter]

Oh, gimme a break here,,,
If we didn't hang out in a gun forum,,,
We probably wouldn't know the different rules either.

Speak for yourself. I'm not saying I know all the rules but I do my due diligence because I'm a responsible person, not because hang out in a gun forum.
I don't hang out in car forums but I know the rules of the road.

When I got back into shooting after a 17 year hiatus,,,
I had no idea that the gun laws in some states had become so draconian.

Six years ago when I started shooting again for fun and recreation,,,
I was absolutely flabbergasted at how the laws of some states had become so restrictive.

Right, but it sounds like you took personal responsibility to re-educate yourself, not just take it on a whim that everything was the same.

This lady may be the ultimate example of an Accidental Felon,,,
And don't any of you tell me that you go a week,,,
Without breaking a law that'd get you hung.

If you can truly state that,,,
I wonder how and where you live.

Maybe, but carrying a gun is (unfortunately) a highly regulated activity. As such, anyone who does it should know that extra precautions need to be taken (e.g. spend a little effort to know the laws).

Those draconian laws were designed to aid the prosecutions of heavy criminals,,,
Not to be used to make an example out of an ordinary citizen,,,
The letter of the law provides for a heavy sentence,,,
The intent of the law should allow for leniency.

Slap her hand with a reasonable misdemeanor fine and let her go home,,,
Don't make her a prohibited felon because she got lost.

A District Attorney has a lot of discretion in these type of cases,,,
Let's hope this one isn't going after low hanging fruit,,,
Just because it's an easy score for his/her record.

100% agree. She did break the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. As a just society, considerations should be made.

 

[NoVA Shooter]

The NJ law isn't draconian. Draco's laws in the Draconic Code were harsh in the extreme.

"The death penalty was the punishment for even minor offences, such as "stealing a cabbage"."

Solon repealed the Draconic Code in the 6th Century B.C. He did keep the death penalty for murder.

I think the word draconian has been overused and the meaning watered down over the years.

fwiw

John

IMO, "harsh in the extreme" is all relative to the current state of a society. You don't think that years in jail and $1000's in fines is harsh in the extreme for simply carrying a gun (mind you, a gun that she is licensed to carry in 28 other states)?

 

[Sam1911]

As for informing LEO you are carrying, do you need to in PA?

No.

There is also no training requirement (or offered official course) in PA law. And certainly not a course in the laws of NJ.

Hmmm... a single lady with kids traveling to Atlantic City in the wee hours of the morning? She SHOULD be carrying a gun! Who in the world would feel safe NOT carrying under those conditions?

The law doesn't allow it... ok, there's that. The law is anathema, though.

We all have a responsibility to know the laws (and abide as best we can) but I hope she gets off free and clear. The lawyers fees and trouble will be more punishment than any person should have to bear.

 

[Hugo]

Let's hope this influences NJ lawmakers, Governor, DA, and others to finally reform the unjustly harsh and frankly insane firearm laws in NJ. Like removing the insane Hollowpoint ban for civilians that makes things more dangerous from overpenetration. And make NJ realize the world doesn't revolve around it and recognize other states CCL licenses. And maybe go Shall-issue for the law abiding citizens. Probably more areas to fix too. What year is it NJ? Shame the heck out of NJ until they reform this.

Good luck to Shaneen Allen and her family. I hope her lawyer helps her make NJ look like the incompetent government they are until they drop these foolish charges against her.

 

[Midwest]

What year is it NJ? Shame the heck out of NJ until they reform this.

New Jersey is a backwards state when it comes to rights and freedoms. They have had weak self defense laws for decades. "Ceasefire NJ" actually has some clout in that state, the person running it is a minister of some sort.

What year is it in NJ? Probably the early 1980's at the height of Hand Gun Control. New Jersey is that far behind the rest of the states.

.

 

[JohnBT]

"You don't think that years in jail and $1000's in fines is harsh in the extreme for simply carrying a gun"

It's harsh, but it's not extreme and it's not draconian. Extreme would be having a hand chopped off, being sold into slavery or getting a death sentence.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Doesn't really matter. Few laws are posted. We are still responsible to abide by them.

Well, yes it does matter. I was party to a lawsuit where the county paid out a 3m claim to an injured motorist who hit a tree. The judgement was based on the fact that the county failed to post the speed limit on the road which was required by the counties own traffic control ordinance.

I know this sounds ridiculous but that's what happened.

 

[BSA1]

The NJ law isn't draconian. Draco's laws in the Draconic Code were harsh in the extreme.

"The death penalty was the punishment for even minor offences, such as "stealing a cabbage"."

Solon repealed the Draconic Code in the 6th Century B.C. He did keep the death penalty for murder.

I think the word draconian has been overused and the meaning watered down over the years.

Not draconian you say. If convicted she will;

1. Use of all assets for legal defense
2. Imprisonment for three years
3. Loss of custody of her children to the State
4. Loss of being employed in the medical field due to her conviction
5. Fines
6. Permission of the State to gain custody of her children
7. Permanent loss of her 2A rights
8. Greatly diminished ability to defend herself against future attacks. (She has been attacked twice previously).
9. Unable to find employment with good fringe benefits and good enough to pay for childcare.
10. Unable to afford good education for her children forcing them into public reeducation schools.
11. Dependency on welfare and food stamps and other Government Programs.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

However, since you mentioned the lace panties angle, the fact that she is a black, single mom with a good job from a bad neighborhood has nothing to do with the Constitutional issue either, as implied by the OP.

That's correct. That's why I brought up the constitutional issue as what I perceive to be her only defense - and the opportunity to free up the residents of New Jersey as well. (It's always nice to have a hidden ulterior motive in these cases! )

Woody

 

[JohnBT]

"Not draconian you say."

Harsh, but not draconian. Draco, were he alive still, would likely believe your list of punishments to be a slap on the wrist.

 

[twofifty]

Not draconian you say. If convicted she will;

1. Use of all assets for legal defense
2. Imprisonment for three years
3. Loss of custody of her children to the State
4. Loss of being employed in the medical field due to her conviction
5. Fines
6. Permission of the State to gain custody of her children
7. Permanent loss of her 2A rights
8. Greatly diminished ability to defend herself against future attacks. (She has been attacked twice previously).
9. Unable to find employment with good fringe benefits and good enough to pay for childcare.
10. Unable to afford good education for her children forcing them into public reeducation schools.
11. Dependency on welfare and food stamps and other Government Programs.

I've extracted a few of the consequences of a draconian outcome to illustrate that sometimes it is better for the State to be lenient than to create the stimulus conditions for greater and much more expensive outcomes 10 years down the road - when the kids enter their teen years.

Items 3, 4, 9,10 and 11 would statistically lead to the mother going on welfare upon leaving prison. Meanwhile the kids would have learned some harsh lessons about white justice toward disadvantaged blacks, and may well choose to act out on the basis of those lessons.

Up till now, these kids were well on their way to join the growing and successful black middle class.

NJ should look down the road a bit before punishing this family for a victimless crime.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Post #57, 2A groups & gun laws.....

My point about the New Jersey laws & post 57 is that if a state's residents or registered voters don't support a bill/law/ordinance then it's shouldn't pass.
Gun owners & 2A supporters need to rally & support pro 2A laws/statues.
Not voting or saying; "so what" or "I don't care." isn't going to cut it.

When your gun rights & hunting/CC ability is threatened it's too late to get upset.

 

[CoalTrain49]

My point about the New Jersey laws & post 57 is that if a state's residents or registered voters don't support a bill/law/ordinance then it's shouldn't pass.
Gun owners & 2A supporters need to rally & support pro 2A laws/statues.
Not voting or saying; "so what" or "I don't care." isn't going to cut it.

That's a big problem here in this country. Too many people just assume they will always have the freedoms and rights they have now. I think Shaneen made the mistake of assuming that because she had permit in PA. it was good in NJ. She is a young, new permit holder and I can see how she might assume that. I'm not making excuses for her but I understand how it could happen. How many people are now trying to get a CC permit and finding out it is next to impossible because of some bureaucratic process or onerous LE agency. Or in her case, it's only good until you cross the river a few miles from your house.

And as you say the only way to make sure we don't slide off into the abyss is to pay attention to this stuff and vote.

 

[Fleetman]

I live in Pa and mistakenly entered Maryland once....there was absolutely no place to turn around for about 3 miles. It happens more easily than some people realize.

 

[BSA1]

"Not draconian you say."

Harsh, but not draconian. Draco, were he alive still, would likely believe your list of punishments to be a slap on the wrist.

Well it seems we have different values on our liberty. I’ll hang with this bunch of old guys that felt so strongly they wrote;

“When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”

It seems I cherish my Liberty more than you. I can live a full life with the loss of a hand. I can not begin to image to live my life in a country that strips me of my 2A right and takes away my freedom.

 

[wally]

Too bad she's not an NFL star, three felonies would magically turn into misdemeanors.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=757162

 

[RustyShackelford]

+1 for 71.....

+1 for post 71's remarks.
The hue & cry over anti-gun laws or anti 2A bills/statues/ordinances will go on all over the USA if gun owners/2A supporters do not vote, support pro gun groups, etc.
I'm not saying you have to march in front of city hall or your state capital building with signs or a M4/rifle slung over your shoulder but you can be vocal with your local elected officials or govt.
Felons & convicts don't vote.
Anti gun political figures can't stay in office if the gun owners/CCW holders/hunters vote more than the other citizens who are apathetic or uninformed.